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But would you retain your objections to the name if the capital of Wielkopolska province in EU2 were Gniezno? I do believe that Gniezno has a longer and more distinguished history than Kalisz...
ok I didnth remember to this links before
(slap myself.. SLAP SLAP SLAP
).
would save myself loth of tayping
It is final evidence Slavonia was noth territory of Hungary
here you can see political evolution of regia
alauth evrybody no this links by this time
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm
with info on this 2
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalstyle.htm#austria
http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/transy/
I beliwe this is enaf for my case
Whatewer was Slavonia before Croatian or Hungarian,
from 13ct>1419>1918 was noth Hungarian territory
I belive I have proven my case and ask agen who is more corect
abauth this ?
So, hu are you gona belive?
Are you still clameing Slavonia was territory of "Kingdom of Hungary" Zsolo and Attila ?
But still
Will wee made Slavonia as an second Croatian Kingdom or will we youst have one Croatian Kingdom (CRO+SLA)????
What shuld wee use ?
Personaly Im for Slavonia as Kingdom with big DIPstatus +150>+190
on Croatia, becose alauth it is Croatian Kingdom it was separeted politicly with Croatia in start EUII 1419.
From midle of 15ct BAN for "Kingdom of Dalmatia and Croatia"
and BAN for "Kingdom of Slavonia" is same person till 1918!!!
But then agen it looks like that from midle of 15ct they agen become
politicly one body.
So is it to much to make 2 croatian at start and use only one or 2?
were this 2 Kingdoms merge in 15ct agen into one titel
"Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia"
or was ofichaly that dune leter, donth no yet,
but tahat did hapened.
P.S.
****
youst a note
I have lot of history book and sources+local libary , but this Herman of Chili is total enigma, I asked that before once and did get an anser (thanx "sifra Vojvodina" ) but still I donth anderstand what it shud shov ,big feud posesion of an noble or ??
..I newer get any source on him, and becose of what is that "?" ner hese name on map ???.. but if enybady have some link or specific data I would be fery thankful for it
And... for people who speak Croatian.. or some close languagecan you give me its name on Croatian..or Serbian.. or Bosnian .. I finkh I will anderstand it
i belive that with Croatian wersion of his name i will locate info im interested
*****
(slap myself.. SLAP SLAP SLAP
).would save myself loth of tayping
It is final evidence Slavonia was noth territory of Hungary
here you can see political evolution of regia
alauth evrybody no this links by this time
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm
with info on this 2
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalstyle.htm#austria
http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/transy/
I beliwe this is enaf for my case
Whatewer was Slavonia before Croatian or Hungarian,
from 13ct>1419>1918 was noth Hungarian territory
I belive I have proven my case and ask agen who is more corect
abauth this ?
So, hu are you gona belive?
Are you still clameing Slavonia was territory of "Kingdom of Hungary" Zsolo and Attila ?
But still
Will wee made Slavonia as an second Croatian Kingdom or will we youst have one Croatian Kingdom (CRO+SLA)????
What shuld wee use ?
Personaly Im for Slavonia as Kingdom with big DIPstatus +150>+190
on Croatia, becose alauth it is Croatian Kingdom it was separeted politicly with Croatia in start EUII 1419.
From midle of 15ct BAN for "Kingdom of Dalmatia and Croatia"
and BAN for "Kingdom of Slavonia" is same person till 1918!!!
But then agen it looks like that from midle of 15ct they agen become
politicly one body.
So is it to much to make 2 croatian at start and use only one or 2?
were this 2 Kingdoms merge in 15ct agen into one titel
"Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia"
or was ofichaly that dune leter, donth no yet,
but tahat did hapened.
P.S.
****
youst a note
I have lot of history book and sources+local libary , but this Herman of Chili is total enigma, I asked that before once and did get an anser (thanx "sifra Vojvodina"
) but still I donth anderstand what it shud shov ,big feud posesion of an noble or ??..I newer get any source on him, and becose of what is that "?" ner hese name on map ???.. but if enybady have some link or specific data I would be fery thankful for it
And... for people who speak Croatian.. or some close language
can you give me its name on Croatian..or Serbian.. or Bosnian .. I finkh I will anderstand it i belive that with Croatian wersion of his name i will locate info im interested
*****
Last edited:
Sorry HRV123, but I do not think that You have
proved the existance of an independent Slavonia, as it was historically an integral part of Hungary!! Futhermore, whereas I already agreed to have a (1 province) independent Croatia, with some conditions, I have to say that even for this I do not feel a strong historical justification, as there were other contries with similar ties as Hungary and Croatia but they are treated as one country in the EUII.
Anyhow, I will not repeat myself again, please read Zsolo's, JereRed's, Demetrios's and my posts again, and decide wheter you have already reached your ultimate goal (having an independent Croatia) and thus should be satisfied or it is better to just go on, posting unhistorical nonsense and further damaging Your case.
Thanx.
proved the existance of an independent Slavonia, as it was historically an integral part of Hungary!! Futhermore, whereas I already agreed to have a (1 province) independent Croatia, with some conditions, I have to say that even for this I do not feel a strong historical justification, as there were other contries with similar ties as Hungary and Croatia but they are treated as one country in the EUII.
Anyhow, I will not repeat myself again, please read Zsolo's, JereRed's, Demetrios's and my posts again, and decide wheter you have already reached your ultimate goal (having an independent Croatia) and thus should be satisfied or it is better to just go on, posting unhistorical nonsense and further damaging Your case.
Thanx.
Sorry, but you are wrong. From about half of XIII c. capital city of Wielkopolska is Poznan. In begin of XV c. (when starts EU2) Kalisz was in separate region called Ziemia Kaliska, as I wrote few post above in this thread. Ofcourse to simplify provinces in EU2 we can merge Ziemia Kaliska and Ziemia Poznanska to get Wielkopolska (with capital in Poznan) in almost todays borders. I just saw, that on sreen from week40 Poznan is outside Wielkopolska and this is completly wrong.
independent historical source on Croatia
I think Hrv123 will agree as well that the book Macartney, C. A.: Hungary - A Short History can be regrded as a fairly independent source (the web-site address was actually found by Hrv123 himself).
So, the following is said on the 8 centuries long common Croatian-Hungarian history:
"Hungarian expansion did not reach into the Austrian Alps, which were now being recolonised and consolidated by the Babenbergs, nor across the Sava and Danube in the south, but Syrmium was conquered and colonised about 1060, and
in 1089-90 Ladislas I occupied (or perhaps re-occupied) 'Slavonia',
between the middle courses of the Sava and the Drava. In addition, Kálmán, in 1097 took pos-session of the former kingdom of Croatia, of which he was crowned king in 1106, having meanwhile secured posses-sion also of the northern Dalmatian coast...
Croatia was a dynastic acquisition. How far the Hungaro--Croat union was real (in later phraseology), and how far only personal, is a question which the historians of the two countries argue and can never resolve, since they are talk-ing in terms to which the Middle Ages assigned no precise and immutable meaning. It is certain that Croatia was never treated as an integral part of Hungary. The royal title ran 'King of Hungary and Croatia' and Croatia was administered by a viceroy ('Ban') through its own institutions.
But there were close links, even here; for instance, the Croat privileged classes seem to have enjoyed automatically the status of their Hungarian counterparts."
As I expressed my opinion several times before I've never stated that Croatia was an integral part of Hungary only Slavonia where the Hungarian counties and administration were introduced from the very beginning. In the case of Croatia, I am quite sure that a vassal status plus a military alliance with a very friendly relation is the most accurate form of a starting Croatian position.
For those interested I suggest visiting e.g. the site: http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/
I think Hrv123 will agree as well that the book Macartney, C. A.: Hungary - A Short History can be regrded as a fairly independent source (the web-site address was actually found by Hrv123 himself).
So, the following is said on the 8 centuries long common Croatian-Hungarian history:
"Hungarian expansion did not reach into the Austrian Alps, which were now being recolonised and consolidated by the Babenbergs, nor across the Sava and Danube in the south, but Syrmium was conquered and colonised about 1060, and
in 1089-90 Ladislas I occupied (or perhaps re-occupied) 'Slavonia',
between the middle courses of the Sava and the Drava. In addition, Kálmán, in 1097 took pos-session of the former kingdom of Croatia, of which he was crowned king in 1106, having meanwhile secured posses-sion also of the northern Dalmatian coast...
Croatia was a dynastic acquisition. How far the Hungaro--Croat union was real (in later phraseology), and how far only personal, is a question which the historians of the two countries argue and can never resolve, since they are talk-ing in terms to which the Middle Ages assigned no precise and immutable meaning. It is certain that Croatia was never treated as an integral part of Hungary. The royal title ran 'King of Hungary and Croatia' and Croatia was administered by a viceroy ('Ban') through its own institutions.
But there were close links, even here; for instance, the Croat privileged classes seem to have enjoyed automatically the status of their Hungarian counterparts."
As I expressed my opinion several times before I've never stated that Croatia was an integral part of Hungary only Slavonia where the Hungarian counties and administration were introduced from the very beginning. In the case of Croatia, I am quite sure that a vassal status plus a military alliance with a very friendly relation is the most accurate form of a starting Croatian position.
For those interested I suggest visiting e.g. the site: http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/
slavonia is a integral part of croatia. maybe hungary too, but surely it is more croatian by history than hungarian. although hungarians do have some rights to claim it, and thus i suggested that they have a cb on it, you cannot deny that croatians have always lived there, much before the magyars, and were always more than absolute majority in the region. if i reached a deal on the disputed provinces there is no need for you hungarians to keep provocating us any more. ok?
hrv123, herman of cilli je herman celjski, njemacki plemic koji je vladao celjem u sloveniji i koji je bio najmocniji plemic u hrvatskoj uz nikolu subica.
and i don't really see a good reason to include kingdom of slavonia in the game. the province of slavonia should be hungarian at start, but not at any way called korosy!!!!!!!! that would be just like croatians wanted to call the province of pest budimpesta just because we call it that way. that's what you are trying to do here.
i don't see why is this thread going on if we have agreed on almost everything? i think we should get an opinion from paradox now.
hrv123, herman of cilli je herman celjski, njemacki plemic koji je vladao celjem u sloveniji i koji je bio najmocniji plemic u hrvatskoj uz nikolu subica.
and i don't really see a good reason to include kingdom of slavonia in the game. the province of slavonia should be hungarian at start, but not at any way called korosy!!!!!!!! that would be just like croatians wanted to call the province of pest budimpesta just because we call it that way. that's what you are trying to do here.
i don't see why is this thread going on if we have agreed on almost everything? i think we should get an opinion from paradox now.
As you can see on the map linked by Glazer Polish provices' borders are absolutely wrong drawn...
Hm, The simplest and the most accurate way to solve this problem is:
- to leave Poznañ as Poznañ,
- split Wielkopolska into Sieradz (east one) and Kalisz (western)
Province Wielkopolska contained such three lands.
In EU map Wielkopolska contains Sieradz, Kalisz and Kujawy, but not its capital - Poznañ. Northern part of Kujawy in that time was a part of TO, Southern - Sieradz.
Gniezno was first Polish Capital, but Poznañ first Bishopric, Kalisz is so old as well...
Jerered check this maps as they are only what I located by this point
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm
If Hungary on them have Slavonia as Integral part of
"Kingdom of Hungary" I will cut my right hand
I have posted only facts by this time
And im supraised you donth no Jerered
that from 13ct Slavona was kingdom with it one sabor and ban, its rex title, coind with REX slavonia on them,+ maps links above, AND MOST importahnt one that from midle of 15ct BAN for Croatia nad Slavonia was one person yob.... Dow you finkh that would King of Hungary or Hungary nobilty alowe to BAN of Croatia rule in an youst integral part of Hungary till 1918!
You have give to Attila and Zsolo what Hungary was claming Slavonia is hungarian fromm 1699 till 1918.
Plese go to yore local libary and recheck it Plese Jerered
Zsolo on youre link http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/
It is Hungarian site and you did sead to use only
neutral sites ,
but, I will give you this link by same author i belive and same place
http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/transy/
red it all cerfuly especily when author refer on relation toward
whatas he sead is Croatia-Slavonia
So what was you claming agen
I can noth anderstand this constant claming of Slavonia as integral part of "Kingdom of Hungary" any more by Attila and Zsolo denaying to tell finaly, that they were wrong wen they sead Slavonia was part of Hungary 1419.
So you noth no history abauth that you 2, or are claming it youst for funn so Hungary is biger at start in 1419
Plese be serius abaut this and its noth funy to make a yoake like that from history.
Plese lets sambody .. like Demetrios as hi is consider to be probly person with bigest word History nolage on EU bords, and paradox
red this discuson and make conclusion:
1. "Kingdom of Slavonia" is integral part of Hungary in 1419.
or
2. Seperate state made by BELA IV in 13ct under croun of ST Stjepan
With it one sabor, Ban, curency, laws, populated by Croats,using glagolitic in church,having church liturgy on Croatian and Latin language and from midle of 15ct BAN for Croatia and Slavonia is one person yob!
Also Hasbourgs get clame on it under "REX Slavoniae"
What is corect and what is wrong or Im simply mad and noth no enyfing abauth history...If I would belive Im noth corect or shure wen Im seying all this abauth Slavonia, i would cutt my hand
( Make Slavonia an state with same status tovard Hungary as status Croatia have toward Hungary, or made it province of Croatia what it become defacto from moment BAN for Slavonia and Croatia have become same person in 15ct.
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1500.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1600.htm
If Hungary on them have Slavonia as Integral part of
"Kingdom of Hungary" I will cut my right hand
I have posted only facts by this time
And im supraised you donth no Jerered
that from 13ct Slavona was kingdom with it one sabor and ban, its rex title, coind with REX slavonia on them,+ maps links above, AND MOST importahnt one that from midle of 15ct BAN for Croatia nad Slavonia was one person yob.... Dow you finkh that would King of Hungary or Hungary nobilty alowe to BAN of Croatia rule in an youst integral part of Hungary till 1918!
You have give to Attila and Zsolo what Hungary was claming Slavonia is hungarian fromm 1699 till 1918.
Plese go to yore local libary and recheck it Plese Jerered
Zsolo on youre link http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/
It is Hungarian site and you did sead to use only
neutral sites
,but
, I will give you this link by same author i belive and same place http://www.net.hu/corvinus/lib/transy/
red it all cerfuly especily when author refer on relation toward
whatas he sead is Croatia-Slavonia
So what was you claming agen
I can noth anderstand this constant claming of Slavonia as integral part of "Kingdom of Hungary" any more by Attila and Zsolo denaying to tell finaly, that they were wrong wen they sead Slavonia was part of Hungary 1419.
So you noth no history abauth that you 2, or are claming it youst for funn so Hungary is biger at start in 1419
Plese be serius abaut this and its noth funy to make a yoake like that from history.
Plese lets sambody .. like Demetrios as hi is consider to be probly person with bigest word History nolage on EU bords, and paradox
red this discuson and make conclusion:
1. "Kingdom of Slavonia" is integral part of Hungary in 1419.
or
2. Seperate state made by BELA IV in 13ct under croun of ST Stjepan
With it one sabor, Ban, curency, laws, populated by Croats,using glagolitic in church,having church liturgy on Croatian and Latin language and from midle of 15ct BAN for Croatia and Slavonia is one person yob!
Also Hasbourgs get clame on it under "REX Slavoniae"
What is corect and what is wrong or Im simply mad and noth no enyfing abauth history...If I would belive Im noth corect or shure wen Im seying all this abauth Slavonia, i would cutt my hand
( Make Slavonia an state with same status tovard Hungary as status Croatia have toward Hungary, or made it province of Croatia what it become defacto from moment BAN for Slavonia and Croatia have become same person in 15ct.
i'm not saying it wasn't a kingdom for real, nor that the hungarians are right when they claim it was theirs, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be incorporated in the game.
of course it was there, of course they were croatia. but be realistic... that would just be too much, to have two croatian nonexistant states in the game...
of course it was there, of course they were croatia. but be realistic... that would just be too much, to have two croatian nonexistant states in the game...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by zsolo
there is no Croatian treasury, no royal household. The highest administrative leader, the "ban" is appointed by the king
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been sitting back enjoying this debate when those words within your post struck me as being an excellent measure of medieval statehood.
While other posters have looked up dynasties, and parliaments, I think that your reference to administration might perhaps be the yardstick used in several of the debates regarding statehood within the Balkans and elsewhere.
******************************
What zsolo forget to mention is that Croatian SABOR chose who will be BAN, and King then give his blesing and ofishly recognaise it that....And I belive newer in History was king of Hungarian blod or Hasburg one, sead "NO" to proposal of SABOR for ban ..they did take some time to confirm BAN .. some times as much to BAN day from age, or by "strange" events.
As same Sabor vas noth posible to name BAN withauth confirmation of that person ho cary title King of Croatia ..exept in this Story I will sead
History in late 14 ct on this teritory
In Croatia and Slavonia after deaf of King Ludovik I (1382)
start an rebelion as Big part of Croatian nobilty
( Slavonian nobilty is consider themself to be Croatian nobilty )
and some Hungarian ones were noth recognize his dother Maria for Queen.
The rebelion in Croatia and Slavonia was led by Brathers Horvat:
Horvat Pavao, bishop of Zagreb ( in Slavonia)
Horvat Ivanis, who was before be BAN of Macva and
Horvat Ladislav .
also some Hungarian nobels from Hungary yoin rebelion also.
They rebels sukced to bring to the trone of Hungary and Croatia and Slavonia
Karl II. But he was kiled in 1386.
Zigismund of Luxsemburg who mered Maria, almost completly end rebelion by defeting rebel Nobels from Croatia ,Slavonia and Hunmgary army in 1394.
But wen it was consider rebelion is finished
Herceg(DUX) Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic yoin in as new leder of rebelion
and make more hard time to Zigismund of Luxemburg.
Rebelion did noth finished until 1408 wen Zigismund Luxemburg finaly Defeted Army of stil rebeld Croats Nobels and H.V.Hrvatinic army
But H.V.Hrvatinic caled Ottomans to protect hese land and him.
Ottomans comed. Make cheese of King Zigismund Hungary,Croatian and Slavonian army and rampage ower Croatia and Slavonia, take 30000 croats back with them into Turky as slaves
But before that as was rebelion stil on, Croatian Sabor ofer title of king to the Ladislav of Naples.
He agred and suport his new posesion for some time.
But as was rebell army crushed 1408 he sold all clames ower Dalmatia in 1409 to "Republic of Venice" for 100000 Ducats!
Venice come, get all biger coastal citys by peace , she get then that, what she was newer able to get by wars before.
Ofichaly politicl recognisation for having posesion in Dalmatia .
It sukcede to hold Dalmatia as it posesion until its end in 18ct.
this is one litle history story
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by zsolo
there is no Croatian treasury, no royal household. The highest administrative leader, the "ban" is appointed by the king
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been sitting back enjoying this debate when those words within your post struck me as being an excellent measure of medieval statehood.
While other posters have looked up dynasties, and parliaments, I think that your reference to administration might perhaps be the yardstick used in several of the debates regarding statehood within the Balkans and elsewhere.
******************************
What zsolo forget to mention is that Croatian SABOR chose who will be BAN, and King then give his blesing and ofishly recognaise it that....And I belive newer in History was king of Hungarian blod or Hasburg one, sead "NO" to proposal of SABOR for ban ..they did take some time to confirm BAN .. some times as much to BAN day from age, or by "strange" events.
As same Sabor vas noth posible to name BAN withauth confirmation of that person ho cary title King of Croatia ..exept in this Story I will sead
History in late 14 ct on this teritory
In Croatia and Slavonia after deaf of King Ludovik I (1382)
start an rebelion as Big part of Croatian nobilty
( Slavonian nobilty is consider themself to be Croatian nobilty )
and some Hungarian ones were noth recognize his dother Maria for Queen.
The rebelion in Croatia and Slavonia was led by Brathers Horvat:
Horvat Pavao, bishop of Zagreb ( in Slavonia)
Horvat Ivanis, who was before be BAN of Macva and
Horvat Ladislav .
also some Hungarian nobels from Hungary yoin rebelion also.
They rebels sukced to bring to the trone of Hungary and Croatia and Slavonia
Karl II. But he was kiled in 1386.
Zigismund of Luxsemburg who mered Maria, almost completly end rebelion by defeting rebel Nobels from Croatia ,Slavonia and Hunmgary army in 1394.
But wen it was consider rebelion is finished
Herceg(DUX) Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic yoin in as new leder of rebelion
and make more hard time to Zigismund of Luxemburg.
Rebelion did noth finished until 1408 wen Zigismund Luxemburg finaly Defeted Army of stil rebeld Croats Nobels and H.V.Hrvatinic army
But H.V.Hrvatinic caled Ottomans to protect hese land and him.
Ottomans comed. Make cheese of King Zigismund Hungary,Croatian and Slavonian army and rampage ower Croatia and Slavonia, take 30000 croats back with them into Turky as slaves
But before that as was rebelion stil on, Croatian Sabor ofer title of king to the Ladislav of Naples.
He agred and suport his new posesion for some time.
But as was rebell army crushed 1408 he sold all clames ower Dalmatia in 1409 to "Republic of Venice" for 100000 Ducats!
Venice come, get all biger coastal citys by peace , she get then that, what she was newer able to get by wars before.
Ofichaly politicl recognisation for having posesion in Dalmatia .
It sukcede to hold Dalmatia as it posesion until its end in 18ct.
this is one litle history story
I don't think that the Sabor making the decision necesarily changes anything.
I have no knowledge of this historical period in the area, and as I said have been enjoying the debate.
Perhaps you could compare the situation to other shared monarchs: For instance Scotland pre 1707 shared England's King, had their own Parliament, as well as treasury and pursued their own foreign policy. Ireland post Cromwell shared the same monarch, had their own Parliament, but no treasury. The former would IMHO be a seperate State in EU, the latter part of England.
Some measure of what an independent Kingdom is needs to be made, and it needs to be objective. It's clear that a Parliament or monarch is not necesarily enough to justify statehood.
I don't think that the Sabor making the decision necesarily changes anything.
I have no knowledge of this historical period in the area, and as I said have been enjoying the debate.
Perhaps you could compare the situation to other shared monarchs: For instance Scotland pre 1707 shared England's King, had their own Parliament, as well as treasury and pursued their own foreign policy. Ireland post Cromwell shared the same monarch, had their own Parliament, but no treasury. The former would IMHO be a seperate State in EU, the latter part of England.
Some measure of what an independent Kingdom is needs to be made, and it needs to be objective. It's clear that a Parliament or monarch is not necesarily enough to justify statehood.
sean
by this thinkig there shuld be only Kingdom of Luxsemburg
and Hasburg to rule half of europe!
if some rule is in use for determination of Personal unions then it shuld be equal for ewrybody.... donth you agrede on that sean?
Hungary will still be Independet cauntry..as Bohemia will be one also alauth it was in personaly union with Luxemburg in EUII....
then whay noth on Croatia and Slavonia as they wery in personal union also with luxemburg hause at that time ?
Tell me what is difrent ? Wonth this be duble standars for some countrys ?
I have no knowledge of this historical period in the area, and as I said have been enjoying the debate.
Perhaps you could compare the situation to other shared monarchs: For instance Scotland pre 1707 shared England's King, had their own Parliament, as well as treasury and pursued their own foreign policy. Ireland post Cromwell shared the same monarch, had their own Parliament, but no treasury. The former would IMHO be a seperate State in EU, the latter part of England.
Some measure of what an independent Kingdom is needs to be made, and it needs to be objective. It's clear that a Parliament or monarch is not necesarily enough to justify statehood.
sean
by this thinkig there shuld be only Kingdom of Luxsemburg
and Hasburg to rule half of europe!
if some rule is in use for determination of Personal unions then it shuld be equal for ewrybody.... donth you agrede on that sean?
Hungary will still be Independet cauntry..as Bohemia will be one also alauth it was in personaly union with Luxemburg in EUII....
then whay noth on Croatia and Slavonia as they wery in personal union also with luxemburg hause at that time ?
Tell me what is difrent ? Wonth this be duble standars for some countrys ?
Well, didn't the seperate Habsburg Kingdoms of Spain and Austria have their own treasury?
Sharing a monarch or having an independent Parliament would not appear to be enough evidence to make the decision either way, there has to be something more which can be taken into account.
Hmmm if two or 3 or 4 kingdoms have
seperat title,
Seperat laws,
Seperat parlament,
newer was meting of sabor(parlament) made auth of borders of croatia
nor were ewer sabor baund to eny king as noth "King of Croatia"
and none king was ewer become king withauth recognison of Sabor, seperat war taxes,
seperat army,
seperat language,
seperat taxes as noth same taxes were in Hungary and Croatia ,Slavonia,
Croatia and Slavonia haved taxes payt to the BAN and hi use them as neded in name of kingas kingdom was in war with somebody almost all the time, also king did get its pice i belive into central tresury..it was determined by law who get what,
seperate legat from Rome,
and newer did sabor of Hungary (if she have it ) ewer give eny order or onwhatewer way be more above Croatian Sabor
Croatian sabor ruled Croatia with ban as apsolute political body on teritory of Croatia,as did hungarian that on teritory of hungary
and one point
Kingdom of Hungary didnth have its one treshury also!
Becose tresury was property of king Who is King of Hungary,King of Croatia,King of Slavonia,King of Luxemburg or whatsoewer etc titels or Arch-duke of Austria ect ect
Also i belive it was located in Hungary/Austria becose there was King/emperor Capital then.
Also if there shuld noth be Transylvania or Croatia or Slavonia then there shuld noth be Kingdom of Hungary as well.
There was all this kingdoms under one crown of St. Styepan from
BELA IV Ho merge the titels into name of Crown of St Stjepan
as there will noth be neded to have more seperat coronation for each seperat Kingdom(before that to become King of Croatia you have to go to Croatia to take crown in front of the Croatian Sabor and agen second coronation for King of Hungary in Hungary..
That nede some time and enyfing can hapened until King come to Croatian sabor, roads were bad and full of thifs ...
and asasins then
..and posible maros/Transylvania but im noth shure.
After that sabor did sent thears representites to the coronation in Capital whatewer was that )
(St Sthepan i belive on english)
1526.Personal union and crown of St.Stjepan stop to exist
All this cauntrys are seperate and equal
And ech one "frely and withauth none presure" chuse King
As enybady from Hungary or Croatia can chuse with Ottoman Behemont at its trouth.
Also Ragusa is noth longer considering to be vassal of Crown of St.Stjepan.
if this is noth making one cauntry equal in union i donth no what das
Donth take duble standard , what you think ?
seperat title,
Seperat laws,
Seperat parlament,
newer was meting of sabor(parlament) made auth of borders of croatia
nor were ewer sabor baund to eny king as noth "King of Croatia"
and none king was ewer become king withauth recognison of Sabor, seperat war taxes,
seperat army,
seperat language,
seperat taxes as noth same taxes were in Hungary and Croatia ,Slavonia,
Croatia and Slavonia haved taxes payt to the BAN and hi use them as neded in name of kingas kingdom was in war with somebody almost all the time, also king did get its pice i belive into central tresury..it was determined by law who get what,
seperate legat from Rome,
and newer did sabor of Hungary (if she have it ) ewer give eny order or onwhatewer way be more above Croatian Sabor
Croatian sabor ruled Croatia with ban as apsolute political body on teritory of Croatia,as did hungarian that on teritory of hungary
and one point
Kingdom of Hungary didnth have its one treshury also!
Becose tresury was property of king Who is King of Hungary,King of Croatia,King of Slavonia,King of Luxemburg or whatsoewer etc titels or Arch-duke of Austria ect ect
Also i belive it was located in Hungary/Austria becose there was King/emperor Capital then.
Also if there shuld noth be Transylvania or Croatia or Slavonia then there shuld noth be Kingdom of Hungary as well.
There was all this kingdoms under one crown of St. Styepan from
BELA IV Ho merge the titels into name of Crown of St Stjepan
as there will noth be neded to have more seperat coronation for each seperat Kingdom(before that to become King of Croatia you have to go to Croatia to take crown in front of the Croatian Sabor and agen second coronation for King of Hungary in Hungary..
That nede some time and enyfing can hapened until King come to Croatian sabor, roads were bad and full of thifs ...
and asasins then
..and posible maros/Transylvania but im noth shure.
After that sabor did sent thears representites to the coronation in Capital whatewer was that )
(St Sthepan i belive on english)
1526.Personal union and crown of St.Stjepan stop to exist
All this cauntrys are seperate and equal
And ech one "frely and withauth none presure" chuse King
As enybady from Hungary or Croatia can chuse with Ottoman Behemont at its trouth.
Also Ragusa is noth longer considering to be vassal of Crown of St.Stjepan.
if this is noth making one cauntry equal in union i donth no what das
Donth take duble standard , what you think ?
You know...I'm still elated to see the expanse of the map in EU 1 compared to all other strategy games. The concept of so many countries, so many territories, and so many factors in this game makes relatively minor historical errors all but meaningless. Sure, it would be nice if the benevolent programmers and composers of this game could go ahead and shave a few more provinces out of the Ukraine, reconstruct a few in Italy, and invent new or whatever else elsewhere, but, frankly I'd rather bring the banners of Orleans to Athens and London a few weeks shorter.
I think that is the most important point htat you have just made sean9898. In my opinion a country who is able (allowed) to pursue foreign policy can be regarded as more or less indepentdent. Not only because of historical facts but also of the game engine of EU II (create alliance, declare war, royal marriages, etc.). A country who had never been able to do it, must not be either a vassal because it is totally incorrect.
That is why I am deeply disappointed from Paradox's statement that Transsylvania - however before 1526 it never fulfilled the above mentioned criteria - will be a vassal country.
What is more, no justification was provided. Hey guys, this is not the way to treat it! I thought you want to have a great, historically accurate game...
That is why I am deeply disappointed from Paradox's statement that Transsylvania - however before 1526 it never fulfilled the above mentioned criteria - will be a vassal country.
What is more, no justification was provided. Hey guys, this is not the way to treat it! I thought you want to have a great, historically accurate game...
with Graven seying there will be independend Transylavnia ..err Sig..samthing
ALso zsolo in relity sabor and Bans from Croatia did have diplomatic good "unofisly" and ofichay relations with Spain, Papal States,France,Bavaria, 2 Sicily and Sweden by some point as the best DIPs.
Also wen Zrinski and Frankopan (17ct) oferd to the Ottomans to take Croatia from Hasburgs but only if restore historical borders Of Croatia, they were redy to acept ony some point of autonomy in this new situation.
Thanks to the History hasburgs haved spy at cort of ottomans and stoped this ..posibliy change of Croatia toward Ottomans and islam.
There will shure be an Croatia (and Slavonia?)as it have much more factors of seperate cauntry thatn Maros or Trasylvainia or Seb....whatewer was caled toward St.stjepan crown or as some like to sey Hungary.
Also I have sead all I belive is neded and see no more purpose to
continue to change sombody opinion regard Slavonia as they will
noth acept it anewey.
Time will prove that I was seying is truth abauth Slavonia.
I belive I have proven what was SLavonia and Croatian relations toward Hungary so if you wont to use incorect claming Slavonia is Terirory of Kingdom of Hungary in 1419 youst go ahed
And paradox make Personal Unins as dip relation wen you can.
History could be much more precisly simulate in that Historical period
With PU.
ALso zsolo in relity sabor and Bans from Croatia did have diplomatic good "unofisly"
and ofichay relations with Spain, Papal States,France,Bavaria, 2 Sicily and Sweden by some point as the best DIPs.Also wen Zrinski and Frankopan (17ct) oferd to the Ottomans to take Croatia from Hasburgs but only if restore historical borders Of Croatia, they were redy to acept ony some point of autonomy in this new situation.
Thanks to the History hasburgs haved spy at cort of ottomans and stoped this ..posibliy change of Croatia toward Ottomans and islam.
There will shure be an Croatia (and Slavonia?)as it have much more factors of seperate cauntry thatn Maros or Trasylvainia or Seb....whatewer was caled
toward St.stjepan crown or as some like to sey Hungary.Also I have sead all I belive is neded and see no more purpose to
continue to change sombody opinion regard Slavonia as they will
noth acept it anewey.
Time will prove that I was seying is truth abauth Slavonia.
I belive I have proven what was SLavonia and Croatian relations toward Hungary so if you wont to use incorect claming Slavonia is Terirory of Kingdom of Hungary in 1419 youst go ahed
And paradox make Personal Unins as dip relation wen you can.
History could be much more precisly simulate in that Historical period
With PU.
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people,people,people!!!!
Come on!!!Although i deeply argue that kossuth was for a danube republic from carpahes to adriatic (of course he was,imho,but in his opinion its name should be hungary)
but this is endless!!!!
Me and Hr123 are not Jelacic crossing Drava in 1848 or Tomilsav beating the hell out of Arpad 925.,neither atilla and laszlo are Koloman (im using names we croats call our Croatian kings of Hungarina blood) or Ladislav (laslo i believe) or Kossuth.
We are normal people who can make compromise.
Starter croatia,one province,alliance with hungary,vassal of hungary,Relations as high as you want,when i play croatia i will certainly not be diplo anexxed.
if krain=croatia and croatia=slavonia,than i will give up slavonia to hungary(slavonia as an idependent kingdom is stupidity-slavonia had that title,but it was only ornamental.it was only would it be croatian or hungaran)but croatia must have a casus belli on it!!!
and on Istria,dalmatia,bosnia and ragusa....as these were all parts of croatia medevial state...
Otherwise (no slavonia) all is ok,cro vassal,alliance,etc....
Is this good enough for you,hungarians?????????
lets make PACTA CONVENTA once again....a peace and friendship proposal to you!!!
Piece edited out as it is answered in another thread and the discussion is pointless in this forum - Uglyduck)
Come on!!!Although i deeply argue that kossuth was for a danube republic from carpahes to adriatic (of course he was,imho,but in his opinion its name should be hungary)
but this is endless!!!!
Me and Hr123 are not Jelacic crossing Drava in 1848 or Tomilsav beating the hell out of Arpad 925.,neither atilla and laszlo are Koloman (im using names we croats call our Croatian kings of Hungarina blood) or Ladislav (laslo i believe) or Kossuth.
We are normal people who can make compromise.
Starter croatia,one province,alliance with hungary,vassal of hungary,Relations as high as you want,when i play croatia i will certainly not be diplo anexxed.
if krain=croatia and croatia=slavonia,than i will give up slavonia to hungary(slavonia as an idependent kingdom is stupidity-slavonia had that title,but it was only ornamental.it was only would it be croatian or hungaran)but croatia must have a casus belli on it!!!
and on Istria,dalmatia,bosnia and ragusa....as these were all parts of croatia medevial state...
Otherwise (no slavonia) all is ok,cro vassal,alliance,etc....
Is this good enough for you,hungarians?????????
lets make PACTA CONVENTA once again....a peace and friendship proposal to you!!!
Piece edited out as it is answered in another thread and the discussion is pointless in this forum - Uglyduck)
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