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Last week I told you about the College of Cardinals and the new papal powers (though I believe I forgot to mention that the Pope can also grant you claims on counties and duchies!) Today I'll go through the rest of the new Christian mechanics in Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham, as well as the new Muslim stuff. Let's start with the Holy Orders!

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We have given each non-heretic religion in the game at least one Holy Order. This includes the various pagan religions, though most of their Holy Orders are rather fanciful. The Catholics also get two more in addition to the old ones; the Knights of Calatrava and the Knights of Santiago, both of which are mostly active in Hispania. Holy Orders are no longer activated at a certain date, many will start showing up once the Crusades/Jihads kick off (which is also more dynamic now), or when certain conditions are met. For example, the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre (an Orthodox Holy Order) becomes active if Antioch and Jerusalem are Orthodox and held by Orthodox rulers. Holy Orders are now much more active in world politics, and both their internal and external mechanics have been altered. You can now borrow money from certain Holy Orders (like the Knights Templar), or donate money for Piety. They, in turn, will make various requests (and if you owe them money, it is hard to refuse.) For example, they can ask that one of your sons join them, or that you give them the right to build a castle in an empty holding slot in one of your counties. Internally, Grandmasters are no longer randomly generated characters, but chosen from among vassals and courtiers, many of which will now be important members of European nobility. Having a Grandmaster of your dynasty will give you a monthly amount of prestige. Castle holdings under the Grandmaster are no longer hereditary, but appointed to a "Commander" for life. We have also added some minor rules and decisions, like if you happen to be the king of Jerusalem, you now have the option to vassalize the Templars and the Knights of St John. Lastly, if you think that an Order has grown too powerful in your realm, you can expel it forever, seizing its castles (a very impious act.)

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Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

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As I mentioned earlier, the Crusades will no longer necessarily kick off after a certain year; it now depends on the actual situation in Europe. For example, if Constantinople or Rome have fallen or the Moors are pushing into France. Similar conditions now apply for the Muslims. The Pagans - if they can have Great Holy Wars - will get them after the Crusades and Jihads are both active.

We have also improved on the heresies; most of them are now more distinctive and some of them even have their own heads of religion. For example, the Cathars can appoint female bishops and the Ibadi can now have their own Caliph, etc. The events that control the spread of heresies are different if you have Sons of Abraham; heresies tend to be more localized and it is also possible for minority view non-heretics among your courtiers to spread their faith (i.e. an Orthodox courtier among Catholics, etc.) Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians. Oh, and we also decided to add "regular" religious rebels who are not trying to spread a heresy, just to gain freedom from the religious oppression of their overlords (e.g. Sunni rebels in a Catholic realm.)

Catholicism may have received the most attention in Sons of Abraham, but we have not forgotten the Muslims. They get a choice between two rival schools of theology and the conflicts that arise out of taking a stance. On one side, you have the Mu'tazili school, which espouses reason and rational thought inspired by the ancient Greek philosophers. Opposing them are the Ash'ari, who belive in the eternal, uncreated word of Allah. Historically, the Mutazilites lost out after some fairly brutal conflicts and draconian measures like the Mihna , arguably bringing to an end the Islamic Golden Age. In game terms, Mutazilites get a Learning bonus for research, whereas the Ash'ari gain Piety, and members of opposing schools tend to loathe each other.

I think that will do for now. Next week, I'll speak of pilgrimages, religious events and Judaism!
 
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What about Shia Islam? I've heard that the Mustazili v. Ashari conflict is closed for Sunni only. Do Shia Muslims get anything special?

Bigger question: Can Muslims get an event where they unite Islam in a similar way the Byzantine Emperor gets to unite Orthodox and Catholic Christianity?
 
I'd love to be able to play as an Iconoclast and restore Leo III and Constantine V's decisions to rip icons out of the Churches of the East. I hope this covers all Christian heresies and not just Catholic ones.
 
Have the crusade mechanics been changed in any way?
 
One giant question! Do the anti-popes of the catholic faith have their own college of cardinals? If no, how is the successor chosen then?
 
One giant question! Do the anti-popes of the catholic faith have their own college of cardinals? If no, how is the successor chosen then?

I'm fairly sure they said no to that. Check Groogy's posts in the first Dev Diary thread to be sure.
 
I really sort of dislike how pagan reofrmations are done; because you know faiths that belive in many gods you are going to get heretics. Heresies IMO shouldn't be a mechanic for the pagans, it is a monotheistic thing that they have to deal with. Of course, some might say this would make them overpowered.

What a reformation of pagan faiths should be more about is setting up structures and organizations, ie more in the vain of ancient rome/greece then a monotheistic faith should be the model for what a pagan reformation is.

Nope, there is a big difference: Reformation means destruction of local cults (as beliefs and worship tends to differ from location to location), persecution of those who disagree with the Canon Dogma created by the Pagan Church, reformed religious organization, addition of concepts present in heathen religions like a holy book, etc. Many will not like the changes and will see the Reformed as those poisoned by foreign beliefs who want to change the centuries old traditions. The Reformed on other hand will not tolerate those who do not accept their new doctrines (the whole point of Reformation is to force those doctrines onto them).

Heresy is anything that objects to your own religious denomination, be it on theological or political level. Pagan Reformation will have both opponents who oppose theological changes and political changes. It is more similar to Monotheistic religions but thats what Reformation is about: making the religion more similar to their. It is not supposed to be fulfillment of a dream for everyone and the Reformed Faith having to fight to gain its authority is, IMO, far more realistic than what we have now.

Doesn't the Hellenic faith start off reformed though. I haven't checked vanilla hellnic faith but I swore it did.

Don't read too much into anything in-game Hellenic as it is not a feature Dev's thought too much about (as it is not an official feature). Hellenic faith itself was unreformed by all its rights as it wasn't that strict (Roman Empire was home to dozens of religions to the point I am not sure Hellenic made even half of it... what mattered was that you followed some of Rome's religious traditions no matter your religion (which Jews and Christians rejected for theological reasons thus the low tolerance on them))

Bigger question: Can Muslims get an event where they unite Islam in a similar way the Byzantine Emperor gets to unite Orthodox and Catholic Christianity?

Orthodox and Catholic Church can get united because they are formally two branches of the same thing. Thats why you can't mend Miaphesyte and Catholicism/Orthodoxy
Sunni and Shia were split since the start so the only way to reunite them is to erase the other one from the map.
 
Somewhat related to the Holy Orders, you now have the ability to order any courtier to take the vows and become a monk or nun. The character will then either become a regular monk or nun (traits), or go off to join one of the martial orders. Either way, he or she will be disinherited. Unfortunately, you are not allowed to do this against characters who stand to inherit titles (like younger sons under Gavelkind); unless you imprison them first!

This sounds really exploitable - whilst it was common for younger sons to go into the Church I can't imagine a family of twelve sons tolerating being disinherited by being systematically imprisoned then banished save the eldest.

Is it also possible for heirs upon being commanded to say "Screw you!" and flee your court with strong claims on the titles they stand to inherit?

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Perhaps the most drastic change to heresies though, is that they can now take over as the new orthodoxy if they hold more provinces than the current mainstream form of the religion. If, say, more counties are Waldensian than Catholic, Catholicism will become the heresy and its Holy Orders will join the Waldensians.

Do heresies get their own orders? And it would be cool if there was some kind of conflict between the orders, with some refusing to defect (maybe if the Grandmaster is zealous)?
 
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With some modding, I imagine so. There's a new succession law called Appointment.

:eek: This would be huge. I hope it's really mod friendly! It opens up countless possibilities for modding in more republican/bureaucratic states. :)
 
Also, what interferes with chances to become Grandmaster? I see that your one is: homosexual though celibate, possessed, maimed, cynic, paranoid, cruel, lazy... not the very model of Grandmaster ;)
 
Appointment succession! YES! Could be cool. Very cool indeed. Not only for Byzantine Empire but also for remnants of the Carolingian empire. Trying to fight you way into making dukes&counts appointed titles again. Something for mods, of course.

I hope AI will make good use of papal title-granting mechanics. You upset the Pope, and you will discover your enemies getting juicy claims on you.

Will there be new ways to deal with heresy? I am not talking about imprisoning characters and focing them to convert, or sending your court chaplain and praying that the luck is on your side...I mean something like the Albigensian Crusade!
 
Appointment succesion + forcing people to take vows + good ol'mutilation from LoR = great Byzantium mod incoming!
 
Nope, there is a big difference: Reformation means destruction of local cults (as beliefs and worship tends to differ from location to location), persecution of those who disagree with the Canon Dogma created by the Pagan Church, reformed religious organization, addition of concepts present in heathen religions like a holy book, etc. Many will not like the changes and will see the Reformed as those poisoned by foreign beliefs who want to change the centuries old traditions. The Reformed on other hand will not tolerate those who do not accept their new doctrines (the whole point of Reformation is to force those doctrines onto them).

Heresy is anything that objects to your own religious denomination, be it on theological or political level. Pagan Reformation will have both opponents who oppose theological changes and political changes. It is more similar to Monotheistic religions but thats what Reformation is about: making the religion more similar to their. It is not supposed to be fulfillment of a dream for everyone and the Reformed Faith having to fight to gain its authority is, IMO, far more realistic than what we have now.

so they should stop saying pagan reformation and call it monotheization, since you stop having a pantheon of gods and become a monotheists, just with Odin instead of the christian god it seems. But we should probaly stop discussing weather or not it is better or not in this thread as it is not about it.


anyways, I am wondering if the monastic orders will exist in someways? perhaps they will exist via traits?
 
This sounds really exploitable - whilst it was common for younger sons to go into the Church I can't imagine a family of twelve sons tolerating being disinherited by being systematically imprisoned then banished save the eldest.

Is it also possible for heirs upon being commanded to say "Screw you!" and flee your court with strong claims on the titles they stand to inherit?
1) Imprisoning eleven people without a valid reason will make all your vassals hate you, so I wouldn't call it exploitable.

2) You can only make someone who stands to inherit titles take the vows if he is in prison. How can a prisoner flee to another court?
 
Do any of the non-Catholic heresies get any new flavour or mechanics? I'm thinking the Islamics ones (aside from already-mentioned Ibadi) especially, but also the Orthodox and Zoroastrian ones. Not expecting much for the latter, but the Manichaean Archegos was still residing in Baghdad in 867 (expelled in 908 by Al-Muqtadir), a reasonable candidate for "religious leader" for Manichaeism given the game map and timeframe (though they actually had a system more similar to Orthodox Patriarchs).

TLDR - Archegos is a cool title, there historically still was one in Baghdad in 867, maybe add it for fun? And do any other non-Catholic heresies get any fun flavour or mechanics?

On a similar note, presumably Shiites don't get the Mu'tazili / Ash'ari split - do they get anything for themselves? Interaction with the Hashashin perhaps, or some developing of the Shiite Caliphate events that players can interact with?
 
You have my money. You have it now. Have it now!

***

Seriously, I think these are amazing changes, and they'll bring on very good mechanics. The new game with the Church and the Holy Orders seems to be of impressive depth, if it's been well implemented.

I'm not interested in playing orders or clergy. I just want them to be realistic and fun to interact with. I'd also like that things like the Grandmaster of Aviz becoming King of Portugal, or even the Grandmaster of the Teutonic Order becoming the Protestant Duke of Prussia, were possible.

What can I say? I love it so far.