Thats my point it can't be done either way because you won't be able to annex Yugoslavia and cant grant independence to a country until that happens.
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Personally I wouldn't use the exploit even it were available. I mean what's the point of playing an historical mod if you use exploits that aren't "historical"?
Anyway if someone doesn't like it then it's not all that difficult to edit the files and change it.
Anyway if someone doesn't like it then it's not all that difficult to edit the files and change it.
jmschaub said:
Wrong you can grant independence without owning (province status after annexation) the provinces but just by controling them (province status of military conquering a province). You need to go to liberate puppet in the diplomatic screen and choose the country you want to liberate.
You can edit things you dislike and don't rate historical pretty easy.
Did so in my HSR game aswell, still I see the reason behind it.
But since I try to play realistic and without exploits I took the freedom to be able to build transports and to annex GR / YU
Did so in my HSR game aswell, still I see the reason behind it.
But since I try to play realistic and without exploits I took the freedom to be able to build transports and to annex GR / YU
You can avoid exploits with self limitations annexing the balkans but if you require more than the transports we give for free even if you do not want to, you will be exploiting the deficiencies of HOI naval warfare. Remains to be seen though the improvements done in HOI 1.06.
The unhistorical side effect of this mod is that when you invade India, and it will be you because Japan is worthless there, you gain the advantage of creating troops in India without transporting.
jmschaub said:
This is already corrected for the next HSR version, unless you actually annex the UK... also you will not be able to annex the balkans taking india anymore again unless you annex the UK
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Sounds more unhistorical with Greek and Yugo provinces in India than Bismarck or Tirpitz in the Med. Still, why would anyone put Bismarck or Tirpitz in the Med.? They won't make much difference since the italian fleet already is present there, while there is next to nothing in terms of axis navy in the north sea.
Nevertheless, it would be possible, historically, for the Germans, if they wished so, to build ships in Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian or Yugo wharfs, with volumetric specialists from Germany and cheap local labour.
If we push the banning of Tirpitz from the Med. to its extremes, we should refuse to deploy large ships in Elbing since its wharf only produced minor vessels during the war. In fact, I think Wilhelmshaven dockyard was the only place in Germany for LARGE ships at the time (BB only to be deployed in Wilhelmshafen?)
Still, i vote for self-dicipline. Don't use unhistorical options.
Nevertheless, it would be possible, historically, for the Germans, if they wished so, to build ships in Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian or Yugo wharfs, with volumetric specialists from Germany and cheap local labour.
If we push the banning of Tirpitz from the Med. to its extremes, we should refuse to deploy large ships in Elbing since its wharf only produced minor vessels during the war. In fact, I think Wilhelmshaven dockyard was the only place in Germany for LARGE ships at the time (BB only to be deployed in Wilhelmshafen?)
Still, i vote for self-dicipline. Don't use unhistorical options.
IIRC, Kiel also had some major shipyards, even today Rheinmetall is present there. Same goes for Lübeck and Hamburg which even if they hadn't build major ships, doubtlessly had the capacity to do so.
Xenofontis said:
Amphibious invasions in North africa (syria-egypt) are very dangerous indeed for the allied ai. The comparison of deployment in Elbin and athens sorry to say but also show a strong lack of strategic knowledge.
I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, since I just scanned the recent messages and it has been a while since I've been on this thread. However, in order to prevent Yugoslavia and Greece from having provinces in India and to keep it historical, one could always look at TGW and use their example of denying Austria-Hungry from annexing Serbia.
Just a thought. I think I may go and copy that and change it around to fit HSR and see what happens.
Just a thought. I think I may go and copy that and change it around to fit HSR and see what happens.
You have to keep in mind that you want not only to prevent annexation but also eliminate all units. In the latest HSR there are no more Indian provinces after the annexation event anyway and there are no Indian provinces either before those countries are at war with Germany. If the human player is not Germany you can normally annex those countries.
I agree with Zenofontis.
While I am all for historicity, I dislike manipulations of the game on the scale of giving Balkan nations Indian provinces in order to enforce it.
In my opinion, a "historical mod" should use the game engine to create a historical game - up to, and only up to, the point at which further adjustments would make for ahistorical oddities.
After that point, the point at which HOI is clearly saying to the modder "I am not a simon-pure simulation of historical restrictions and limitations", historicity should be left up to house rules.
Include a file in the mod, named "historical gameplay". In it goes a list of the ways you can get the game to flagrantly change history in your favour. Advise the player simply that, if they wish the purest possible historical challenge to their skills within HOI, that they refrain from doing these things.
The point here is this: HSR should be as historical as possible while respecting the HOI game engine. It is up to players who truly desire a historical game to avoid using that engine in ahistorical ways.
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Some coments on the usage of the Mediterranean by Germany:
As we all know, Germany operated surface ships in the Mediterranean and Black Sea. If historical possibilities are to be preserved in HSR, then Germany must be able to transport, first Korps, then entire Armees, to and from North Africa. She must be able to seize Crete as it was done historically: Paratrooper assault, then German (not Italian) seaborne reinforcements.
The argument that Germany would have a hard time building new surface ships from scratch immediately upon occupying a north Mediteranean port misses the point. Shipping existed; all Germany had to do was commander it.
Basic point: The British won control of North Africa and the Med by hard fighting against both Axis powers. They commited very substantial resources for years on end; for much of the war, it was their primary theatre of operations. In excess of ten German division-equivalents were deployed in North Africa, of which many were lost, during the period '41-'43. Were it not for more pressing matters to the East, Germany could have doubled this.
Therefore:
Within six months of German presence along the shores of the Adriatic, it is quite reasonable to allow the placing of submarines, destroyers, and transports in the Med. Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers I agree are a tad much.
While I am all for historicity, I dislike manipulations of the game on the scale of giving Balkan nations Indian provinces in order to enforce it.
In my opinion, a "historical mod" should use the game engine to create a historical game - up to, and only up to, the point at which further adjustments would make for ahistorical oddities.
After that point, the point at which HOI is clearly saying to the modder "I am not a simon-pure simulation of historical restrictions and limitations", historicity should be left up to house rules.
Include a file in the mod, named "historical gameplay". In it goes a list of the ways you can get the game to flagrantly change history in your favour. Advise the player simply that, if they wish the purest possible historical challenge to their skills within HOI, that they refrain from doing these things.
The point here is this: HSR should be as historical as possible while respecting the HOI game engine. It is up to players who truly desire a historical game to avoid using that engine in ahistorical ways.
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Some coments on the usage of the Mediterranean by Germany:
As we all know, Germany operated surface ships in the Mediterranean and Black Sea. If historical possibilities are to be preserved in HSR, then Germany must be able to transport, first Korps, then entire Armees, to and from North Africa. She must be able to seize Crete as it was done historically: Paratrooper assault, then German (not Italian) seaborne reinforcements.
The argument that Germany would have a hard time building new surface ships from scratch immediately upon occupying a north Mediteranean port misses the point. Shipping existed; all Germany had to do was commander it.
Basic point: The British won control of North Africa and the Med by hard fighting against both Axis powers. They commited very substantial resources for years on end; for much of the war, it was their primary theatre of operations. In excess of ten German division-equivalents were deployed in North Africa, of which many were lost, during the period '41-'43. Were it not for more pressing matters to the East, Germany could have doubled this.
Therefore:
Within six months of German presence along the shores of the Adriatic, it is quite reasonable to allow the placing of submarines, destroyers, and transports in the Med. Cruisers, Battleships, and Carriers I agree are a tad much.
the real fix would be a programming change to select the port you'll be building in when you start construction. if the port is captured during that time period your S.O.L.
Actually, I think the best solution --- if it is at all implementable --- is to require that an invading nation upgrade the tech tree of the nation it has annexed to the point where it has Large Shipyards. This would represent the time and investment necessary to pull off such a stunt (and, in fact, might be implementable via a generic Event which is triggered anytime a seaside nation is annexed).
Historically, after all, only a very few minor nations built their own craft, and never larger than a light cruiser. Their navies were more on the order of coast guards, when they existed at all. When they needed larger or more specialized craft, they simply purchased it from their shipbuilding neighbors.
So, at least in terms of generalization, Minor Countries should never have more than Small Shipyards to start with, and most will technically have none at all (having only repair docks and the like). Those with No Shipyards would be addressed by the Generic Annexation Event, while "special" nations (like Romania, which did have its own Small Shipyard capacity) would effectively have a shorter time of it and would get individualized Events.
I would also suggest that IF an ally is boosted up the tech tree to where it has Large Shipyards as well as home-country large ship designs, then a home country SHOULD be able to deploy vessels through that nation's harbor(s). What is happening in this case is that Germany has convinced the ally not to build its own shipping and instead loan the yards out to Germany. The yards must still be boosted to useful levels, but the investment represented by the large ship designs (which are very extensive when you look at them) actually goes into the "remote operations" expenses as well as the occasional necessary political kickback.
Just some idears... -
Historically, after all, only a very few minor nations built their own craft, and never larger than a light cruiser. Their navies were more on the order of coast guards, when they existed at all. When they needed larger or more specialized craft, they simply purchased it from their shipbuilding neighbors.
So, at least in terms of generalization, Minor Countries should never have more than Small Shipyards to start with, and most will technically have none at all (having only repair docks and the like). Those with No Shipyards would be addressed by the Generic Annexation Event, while "special" nations (like Romania, which did have its own Small Shipyard capacity) would effectively have a shorter time of it and would get individualized Events.
I would also suggest that IF an ally is boosted up the tech tree to where it has Large Shipyards as well as home-country large ship designs, then a home country SHOULD be able to deploy vessels through that nation's harbor(s). What is happening in this case is that Germany has convinced the ally not to build its own shipping and instead loan the yards out to Germany. The yards must still be boosted to useful levels, but the investment represented by the large ship designs (which are very extensive when you look at them) actually goes into the "remote operations" expenses as well as the occasional necessary political kickback.
Just some idears... -