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Well, what I saw in the brazil.inc file are not values for the provinces, but only values for the initial stockpile of the resources. Yes, there should be a higher production of raw resources on the brazilian provinces. I will compile a list with suggested changes when I get home again on the weekend.
 
Anibal said:
Well, what I saw in the brazil.inc file are not values for the provinces, but only values for the initial stockpile of the resources. Yes, there should be a higher production of raw resources on the brazilian provinces. I will compile a list with suggested changes when I get home again on the weekend.
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I don't have the exact syntax here, but if you look in the UK .INC file you can see where they've modified the coastal fortification values for some of the provinces like Gibraltar. If you add a phrase like "coal = 10" in that line, then the coal production value for that province will be increased by 10 points per day.
 
Steel has asked me to post here a list with proposed changes for the brazilian provinces. This list was also checked by some more brazilians and was ok-ed. The sintax is old/new values. The name of the provinces is there only as a reference. Also, I have made a redistribution of the ICs. No, the sum of the ICs remained the same; I only redistributed them to reflect better accuracies. And kept with zero IC those provinces that already had zero.

Code: 
ID      Coal     Steel     Rubber     Oil     Manpower     IC     Infra     Name
303     10       0         20         0       0            0      10        Tefé
310     10       0         25         0       4/1          2/1    20        Boa Vista
313      0       0          0/5       0       0            0      10        Macapá
318      0       0          0         0       5            8/6    70        Recife
321      0       0          0         0       2/1          2/1    50/20     Marajó
322      0       0          0/5       0       3            3/2    50/40     Belém
323      0       0          0         0       3            1/3    50        Fortaleza
326     10       0/10       9/15      0       3/2          2/1    20        Marabá
327     10       0         20         0       3/1          1      20        Santarém
330     10       0         20         0       0            0      10        Aruaja
331      0       0          0/20      0       0/2          1      10        Manaus
332     10       0         20         0       0/2          1      10/20     Porto Velho
333      0       0         25/30      0       0            0      10        Rio Branco
351      0/40    0/60       0         0       3            8/6    50        Belo Horizonte
352      0       0         20         0       1            3/1    50/20     Cuiabá
354      0/10    0          0         0       3/5          7      70/60     Salvador
355    100      80          0         0       2            8      50        Vitória
356      0       0          0         0      15           20      70        Rio de Janeiro
358      0       0/20       0         0       3/4          8      70        Santos
359      0/30    0          0         0       1/4          5/8    50/60     Curitiba
360      0/20   20          0         0       0/15        17/20   70        São Paulo
362      0       0          0         0       1            2      20        Campo Grande
367      0/20    0          0         0       1/4          5/7    50        Porto Alegre

I have ran a game with those new settings. It had a very nice effect that you can now actually improve the ICs but not on a very crazy manner, like it should be. It runs very fine now.

As for events, I didn't have the time to compile a list with planned events. I'll do it until tomorrow.
 
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Aldo, I'm working on a chain of events to simulate the brazilian entrace on the war. Soon - maybe tomorrow - I'll post here a list of them.

IRL there was in reality a pressure from the USA for Brazil to enter on the war. Getúlio Vargas (GV) prefered to stay neutral - and keep enjoying the trade with both Allies and Axis that Brazil had, with nice profits. Yes, he was a real fascist on his ways and manners and with many ministers also like him, but in reality most of them were sympathic to the allies. Then, when finally GV got a very nice and way profitable agreement with the USA (including money to build a major siderurgic plant, some railroads, technologies and, IIRC, some destroyers from the USA), he signed with the Allies.
 
Anibal said:
IRL there was in reality a pressure from the USA for Brazil to enter on the war. Getúlio Vargas (GV) prefered to stay neutral - and keep enjoying the trade with both Allies and Axis that Brazil had, with nice profits. Yes, he was a real fascist on his ways and manners and with many ministers also like him, but in reality most of them were sympathic to the allies. Then, when finally GV got a very nice and way profitable agreement with the USA (including money to build a major siderurgic plant, some railroads, technologies and, IIRC, some destroyers from the USA), he signed with the Allies.
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Anibal,

Don't forget the military access to USA ferry troops to africa, and the naval patrol planes to BRZ.
 
Anibal said:
Aldo, I'm working on a chain of events to simulate the brazilian entrace on the war. Soon - maybe tomorrow - I'll post here a list of them.

IRL there was in reality a pressure from the USA for Brazil to enter on the war. Getúlio Vargas (GV) prefered to stay neutral - and keep enjoying the trade with both Allies and Axis that Brazil had, with nice profits. Yes, he was a real fascist on his ways and manners and with many ministers also like him, but in reality most of them were sympathic to the allies. Then, when finally GV got a very nice and way profitable agreement with the USA (including money to build a major siderurgic plant, some railroads, technologies and, IIRC, some destroyers from the USA), he signed with the Allies.
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Sounds great! :)
 
Well... a first list of events is finished. If anyone is interested, you can view them in http://members.lycos.co.uk/anibal222/Brasil-propostas.txt

Note that the IDs I used are all provisory, and also note that the list is not completed (as told on the file).

Also... is it possible that Brazil starts the scenario as Liberal Conservative, with WE = 0? Reflects the real life, since Brazil turned Paternal Autocrat with the coup of '37 (also an event that I wrote). It would require changes on the minister file, though. During the week I'll put on my site a new minister file. Yes, Getúlio Vargas (GV) was kind of Liberal Conservative until November '37, before the coup, then he turned himself to Paternal Autocrat. It would require to have two different GVs on the file.
 
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Brazil IC & Events

Thanks, Anibal. This is interesting stuff. Some follow-up questions:

1) Rubber: This is one item which appears to have a hard conversion factor of 1 point = 1 ton of rubber per day. Do you have documentation on the extra production or should this just be redistribution of the existing pool?

2) Steel: In doubling the steel production how do the overall production stats max a similar sized economy (Sweden for instance?)

3) Infrastructure: The magic number here is 34. At that level you can sustain a non-domestic unit in the province without attriting it away. So for the provinces that are bumbed below 34, the question is whether the infrastructure (road, railroad, rivers, etc.) was too sparse to pass that test?

4) Rubber export events: As scripted you should add some events for Germany to pay out the supplies and receive the rubber. It will force the German player to invest IC in generating the supply points to support this trade. A more basic question is whether this should be covered by a trade in the world market and then Brazil's events would just be a supply point payment for the "profit" on the Brazilian side in the duties collected by the government. The ballpark conversion factor is that 1 ic-day = ~$100, 000 1938 US. The other effect in the trade event might be some free infrastructure development (+1 point per year) in some of the rubber producing provinces.

Regards
 
Enginner... sorry but I didn't really understand the first and second questions. Basically I have increased the production of raw materials because in HoI the brazilian ICs almost can't be improved without conquests (suffer early from lack of resources), and IRL during that period you can say that the industrial production praticaly doubled. And there was never a lack of raw resources (coal production must be kept rather low, though). I have increased the production of rubber/steel (and some coal, but not much) based only in qualitative measures, not quantitative things acquired from official statistics (which are difficult to find).

Basically, on those days those provinces with low infra (including the ones I lowered it), be it under 34, were really a true wilderness (and most are even today), with almost no roads, railroads and such. The main transport mean is by ship, even today, with airplane transport being more important today. But anyway, IMO those values ought to be very low (but not zero, because of the amount of rivers, thus you can 'navigate' them).

I like the idea regarding the german trade events. The trade actually included raw materials (including rubber, some foodstuffs and, IIRC, some metals) sold to Germany and bought industrial machinery from them, including railroad parts IIRC, and military stuff. I will check it further. For the infrastructure, if it has to be improved via event, should be on the industrial provinces (São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Curitiba, ...). But I'll check it better.

The events I wrote are, as I said, just proposals, thus they are likely to be changed or even excluded if it's the case. In some days I'll add some more, regarding the trade agreements with the USA, the historical entrance on the war, etc.
 
1) Rubber: The HOI system appears to have a ratio of 1 point of rubber = 1 ton of raw rubber. So, for example, if Brazil average 100,000 tons of rubber production per year, the 100,000/360 = 277 points of rubber per day. Or in your proposal, you have about 200 rubber points a day in Brazil. That equals 72,000 tons of production per year. Since HOI is based on historical accuracy tempered by play balance, the first question is whether or not Brazil produced 72,000 tons a year and if not, what is the play balance reason to provide a boost in non-French/non-British rubber.

2) There is a lot of debate about the resource system in HOI which boils down to making the best of limited system. One school of thought argues that coal should represent renewal resources - forestry products, food, wine, fisheries, etc. - in addition to dictionary "coal". Another school of thought is more skeptical and believes that rubber ought to remain rare and a gating factor in industry. Note that if you agree with the former school of thought, steel becomes the new gating factor since with enough industry you can supply your rubber needs with coal conversions. What I'm really getting to is asking you to compare Brazil to other similarly sized economies in the 1930s to understand where the HOI numbers shortchange historical Brazil, but understanding that we don't want to just give Brazil so many resources that it makes their game unrealistically easy. For example in 1938, the Netherlands had a GDP of $46 billion USD. Brazil had a GDP of $50 billion USD. This doesn't mean that Brazil should have almost the same IC as the Netherlands, but you should be able to offer a plausible explanation for difference. It does require some research and data mining.

3) Foreign Investment & changes: The game provides that any country can improve their non-zero IC provinces by investing their own resources. However, the model you suggested highlights that foreign investment would let country's improve their provinces without paying the regular game penalties. I think that is a reasonable idea, again if you have the scale and numbers right. 3 IC x 360 days = 1080 IC-days = ~$108 million 1938 dollars. (3 is a average between 1 and 5 IC). So for every $100 million in direct foreign investment you could plausibly extrapolate an extra IC or Infrastructure point. Hint hint, here is another conversion factor for lend-lease aid, except you might want to bump it up to $200 million to cover wartime overtime, some graft, and the tendency to go into more built up provinces where you would already have 5 IC of capacity.

4) Infrastructure: Yes, you might want to look at the rail road infrastructure. In the USSR, the Siberian railway provides a 40-50 infrastructure path across central Asia. If a province has its capital hooked up to the national rail grid, then perhaps that is a threshold for a 34 infrastructure. Railroads are nearly all-weather (except when washed out by floods) and can move a lot of supplies under reasonable circumstances.
 
Engineer, I'll try to find statistics regarding the production of those things for Brazil during those years. All I found until now were rather unreliable... but thanks for your nice comments.

As for infrastructure, even today there's no railroad on the HoI provinces that belongs to the amazonic forrest (except for the 'province' of Cuiabá; today there's a major network there; and, IIRC those days Belém was served by a railroad, thus the infra ahead of 34). Access through roads was almost impossible, if it was existent.

If the "coal" represents the renewable resources, then I should raise the amount produced in Brazil a lot. That's the question, since if it represents something like "primary sources of energy except for oil derivatives", it should be kept more or less the changes I did, with no great production.

What do you actually mean by "steel"? Metals, minerals? Things like iron, copper, aluminum, platinum, etc? At least I think so...
 
Amazon Infrastructure

I don't think that the infrastructure of the provences surrounding the Amazon River take into account the ability to move supplies and troops on the river. Large oceangoing ships are able to reach Manus which is (IRC) about 1000 nm from the Atlantic. The information for the river routinely mentions that depths of 30 feet are available for much of the length of the river. This means that large volumes of supplies and quick transportation are available on the river. Peru even had a destroyer that they moved into Peruvian territory on the river. It isn't just roads and railroads that should contribute to infrastructure. MDow
 
Probably for AA defence, yes. But a good use would be to hunt smugglers of wood, minerals and other resources, even drug dillers, which use the Amazon as a route. In Brazil many ships of the navy - including destroyers - are there for this service.

MateDow, good points there. I'll rework the infrastructure and, when it's ready, will post there on my site. Thanks for the help there!
 
MateDow said:
I don't think that the infrastructure of the provences surrounding the Amazon River take into account the ability to move supplies and troops on the river. Large oceangoing ships are able to reach Manus which is (IRC) about 1000 nm from the Atlantic. The information for the river routinely mentions that depths of 30 feet are available for much of the length of the river. This means that large volumes of supplies and quick transportation are available on the river. Peru even had a destroyer that they moved into Peruvian territory on the river. It isn't just roads and railroads that should contribute to infrastructure. MDow
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I agree totally. I made the same argument when we upgraded several African provinces infra a few interations ago. Big rivers, like the Amazon or the Nile, can more than compensate for the lack of roads and rail capacity, and in a few cases, surpass it.
 
hi... i am back... :)
well, it will be good to simulate that the troops used the river to get their supplies, but it will have no sense if Brazil could put their entire army inside the amazonas... so the provinces should be less than 34. :)
Also, doesn't all this make Brazil even more powerfull against his neighbours? wouldn't all this make the game with Brazil even more easy than it is now? almost all the people that starts with Brazil owns the entire South America by the end of 1936... :(


EDITED: to fit in HoI timeframe... :p
 
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Generalisimo said:
hi... i am back... :)
well, it will be good to simulate that the troops used the river to get their supplies, but it will have no sense if Brazil could put their entire army inside the amazonas... so the provinces should be less than 34. :)
Also, doesn't all this make Brazil even more powerfull against his neighbours? wouldn't all this make the game with Brazil even more easy than it is now? almost all the people that starts with Brazil owns the entire South America by the end of 1836... :(
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Welcome back and congradulations!

You have been working with Victoria too much... conquering South America by 1836! :D

The problem that I have had with the Brazilian interior is the amount of time that it takes to move anywhere. I know that there is an extreme lack of roads in there, but I should be able to move an army down the river in less than a year. I just think that the infrastructure should be high enough to facilitate the movement and supply of the army. I think that 34 is resonable for the provences along the river. That will allow movement and supply at a reasonable rate. This would allow the other South American nations that don't have the navy to attack Brazil along the coast to make effective attacks. It should take you a long time to cross the mountains along the northern coast to get the Amazon valley, but once established along the river, effective operations should be possible. I don't like the idea of an agressive Brazil to be able to mass its entire army there, but in my games that would be suicide for Brazil because of the numerous landing points along the coast. But if the Brazilians wanted to mass their army there, it would be possible given the ability to resupply and move troops along the river. Just my opinion. MDow
 
MateDow said:
Welcome back and congradulations!

You have been working with Victoria too much... conquering South America by 1836! :D

The problem that I have had with the Brazilian interior is the amount of time that it takes to move anywhere. I know that there is an extreme lack of roads in there, but I should be able to move an army down the river in less than a year. I just think that the infrastructure should be high enough to facilitate the movement and supply of the army. I think that 34 is resonable for the provences along the river. That will allow movement and supply at a reasonable rate. This would allow the other South American nations that don't have the navy to attack Brazil along the coast to make effective attacks. It should take you a long time to cross the mountains along the northern coast to get the Amazon valley, but once established along the river, effective operations should be possible. I don't like the idea of an agressive Brazil to be able to mass its entire army there, but in my games that would be suicide for Brazil because of the numerous landing points along the coast. But if the Brazilians wanted to mass their army there, it would be possible given the ability to resupply and move troops along the river. Just my opinion. MDow
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thank you.
yes, it looks like i have been too much with Vicky... :D
Well, i can live with the 34 around the river... :D
But the ammount of increase of all the resources that was suggested is really big... an agressive player will have a great advantage over the rest of South America... :(
 
Generalisimo said:
thank you.
yes, it looks like i have been too much with Vicky... :D
Well, i can live with the 34 around the river... :D
But the ammount of increase of all the resources that was suggested is really big... an agressive player will have a great advantage over the rest of South America... :(
Click to expand...

I can't make logical arguments about the resource levels within Brazil. I do know that there are a lot of iron ore ports along the rivers in northern South America, but I don't know when they were developed. I will leave that to people that are more familiar with the history of Brazil. MDow
 
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