As of tomorrow, the Clerk is no longer the worst job ...

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
If the diver job needs minerals, then that means it's crap!

Reading the description I thought that the CGs from the job would be free, because the description doesn't say anything about converting minerals into CGs.

Besides, the fantasy of the job is that the perals (CG) are just there, and the divers pick them up. There's no manufacturing or transformative process for resources implied - and that's why all of this is on the agricultural district. Otherwise let's have the ministry building affecting them too!
 
  • 14
Reactions:
If the diver job needs minerals, then that means it's crap!

Reading the description I thought that the CGs from the job would be free, because the description doesn't say anything about converting minerals into CGs.

Besides, the fantasy of the job is that the perals (CG) are just there, and the divers pick them up. There's no manufacturing or transformative process for resources implied - and that's why all of this is on the agricultural district. Otherwise let's have the ministry building affecting them too!
Yeah it definitely reads as a direct CG extractor (akin to the Odd Factory job).
 
  • 3
Reactions:
The more I see about the Angler's civic the more I dislike it and the more I have to ask what the hell the devs were thinking. The civic is literally going to be one of those roleplay civics that people either get trapped by because they don't understand just how poorly designed it is or they knowingly take it, being aware that they are gimping their empire.

With the right numbers, the concept is completely fine, and it would actually be fairly interesting to build around mixed food/CG production (with some bonus trade on the side), potentially on quite a large scale on a given Ocean planet, instead of just making the usual farm worlds and factory worlds. It's just that they gave the Pearl Diver unacceptable input/output numbers compared to Artisans, which throws off the whole build.

Bring the Pearl Diver up to normal or slightly better job standards and the civic is fine.
1. The safe option is to make it a spicy Artisan, granting say 6 CG and 2 trade while consuming 3 minerals and 3 food. This would work fine balance-wise but it's a bit boring.
2. More interesting would be to make it a Worker job: lowish CG output, but in return, the input cost is low or zero (certainly no mineral input; food input is okay given the synergy with Anglers) and you benefit from the Worker pool of bonuses. This would give it quite an unusual place in the economy, like Scrap Miners for the Shattered Ring origin, but would take a bit more work to balance exactly which bonuses apply. Maybe there could be a special edict for Anglers civic that replaces Farming Subsidies, and affects both Anglers and Pearl Divers.
 
  • 12
  • 1Like
Reactions:
If the civic was better, you wouldn't need minerals and could cope with agri districts alone.

But, even as it stands, you could also get catalytic processing and just disable the pearl divers jobs. You will still need the factory districts for CGs but your mineral imput would all go for CGs so it will be doablewith just space mining + perhaps trade. However that's your 2 civics gone.
 
Wait, reading the civic again, does it mean that you don't get your 2 farmers as anglers per district? It says just 1 angler for your farmers... That is PITA.

Hence the 30 world size, and 50% cost cut. It's a design that wants you to use your districts in the early game upfront for fewer better? jobs (certainly for the angler)
 
If the civic was better, you wouldn't need minerals and could cope with agri districts alone.

That does not sound like a downside.

Especially given that for the same price of 2 civics you could go with Mining Guilds and Master Crafters to simply increase your outputs by a lot instead of only changing what you input.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
That does not sound like a downside.

Especially given that for the same price of 2 civics you could go with Mining Guilds and Master Crafters to simply increase your outputs by a lot instead of only changing what you input.
Sure, but it's the agri district uncap and the cheap cost that would make this civic a turbo engine for an aquatic species in the early game.
 
Is the benefit of this civic that you have more job capacity for research, and your industrial districts can now be solely focussed on alloys (that is if trade value is set to CG)?
 
Is the benefit of this civic that you have more job capacity for research, and your industrial districts can now be solely focussed on alloys (that is if trade value is set to CG)?
Remember that trade value from CG nowadays requires picking up the Mercantile tradition or being in a Trade Federation - not everyone has access to it. But yes, it would seem that this civic is a bit stronger at being a trade-focused build (which can already feed a healthy, if not overwhelming, amount of research off of trade-generated CG).
 
I just checked the promo video for the pack:

The civic states "farmers are replaced by anglers" none of the "1 farmer" stuff. So what does the agri district end up giving out in the end in terms of jobs? 2 anglers 1 diver or just 1 angler and 1 diver?

Edit: Nope, 1 angler 1 diver.
 
Remember that trade value from CG nowadays requires picking up the Mercantile tradition or being in a Trade Federation - not everyone has access to it. But yes, it would seem that this civic is a bit stronger at being a trade-focused build (which can already feed a healthy, if not overwhelming, amount of research off of trade-generated CG).
But that’s easily done, and given both of these jobs provide trade value, it seems like a fairly okay choice to pick mercantile early. And then as I mention, almost all of your industrial planets can focus on alloys, as CG would be created by farmers (anglers and divers).
 
are the anglers and pearldivers counted as farmer jobs? can u use trait for 15% more farming and civic agarian idyl to boost it 30%? and cataclysmic alloys
or are they considered special jobs that dont get bonuses stacking?
 
Very quick and rough number crunching, based on the numbers given above and taking no modifiers into account, the net output of each agriculture district is trading -6 food, -2 minerals for +2.75 CG, +4 Trade Value. I wouldn't call it horrific, but seems pretty bleh to me. Before this thread I thought the civic was just replacing farmers with anglers, so you'd still 2 per district plus the pearl diver. Would be a lot better if that was the case IMO. A shame, I kinda like agriculture-focused builds like Agrarian Idyll, was looking forward to trying anglers.
Why are you calculating per district rather than per pop, or per units of CG produced? Pops are far more of a limiting factor than districts in the early game, and how efficient you are at using them is far more important than the total output of districts, which are only as limited as minerals are a limiting factor. You're also not factoring in how this rebalances the homeworld economy overall regarding your need for very expensive, mineral-hungry industrial districts right at the start of the game.


One of the biggest impacts of the Angler Civic is that it highly incentivizes NOT building tons of industrial districts on your capital, but rather to use your homeworld as an early farm/trade-energy world while you set up your guaranteed worlds as one mining world and one industrial world.

This is antithetical for most builds because you really want your worker economy to be getting 25% colony designations, but passable in the early game for Anglers because base 8 food per angler is already a 25% food output upgrade for other empires, and the 4 trade value on your capital per 2 farm district workers basically covers your early energy worker needs as well.

Better, compare what it takes to produce 6 CG.
On the pearl diver build, it takes 2 pearl divers (2 pops) to produce 6 CG. They are also producing 4 trade, which is 4 energy. This takes 2 farm districts (2x 250minerals), 4 minerals in upkeep (2 per angler).
On a normal empire homeworld, 6 CG takes 1 industrial district (1x 500 minerals), 6 minerals a month in upkeep.
On a net the 'normal' empire saves 1 pop directly employed for the 6 CG, but loses out on 2 minerals a month and 4 energy. That's basically another homeworld pop in and of itself, washing out the pop advantage, and if you were relying on the homeworld for raw materials these are two jobs that DON'T get world designation bonuses.

(And this is without factoring in the Anglers, with their 2 extra food and 2 extra trade.)


There's multiple implications for these- that you don't need a designated farmworld as one of your first three colonies, that you'll be able to afford the food and CG of a colony ship much easier than other empires letting you start colonizing planets faster if you have the alloys, that you'll need far fewer miners because each district is cheaper than going for the Industrial districts- but one of the more important implications is that this lets you use one of your guaranteed colonies- the one not immediately made into a mineral-colony- as your alloy economy to make up the alloy dynamics not addressed above.

If you put up your second colony as an alloy world, you can make use of the alloy-world designation you can't use on your homeworld. This will give you a 20% savings on mineral upkeep used to produce each set of alloys- about 2 minerals an industrial district. If we just stopped your back-of-the-napkin math here, it should already be calculus changing: for the same number of farm and industrial districts you could add +2 minerals per Industrial district to the Angler side, as long as you move your industrial worlds off-homeworld.

But even this can be taken further with potential combos. If you take Aquatic, your guaranteed worlds will be 100% habitability, meaning no alloy production inefficiency on the colonies, even as you'll get more value from your homeworld's early resource production. If you take Catalytic Converters as a second civic, you'll be able to use those major food stockpiles to maximize war potential beyond what a mineral economy could support. If you're a trade built, you'll be getting far more value out of your trade-trait much earlier than you could from clerks. If you're a tech-build, you'll be able to afford more homeworld scientists significantly sooner by avoiding the pain of expanding alloy production with homeworld industrial districts. If you've a bunch of colonies to colonize, you'll be able to ramp up food and CG production for colony ships far faster and cheaper than alloy-CG. If you're an Authoritarian build, you can get worker and slave bonuses to your CG bonuses, without having to pay higher CG living standards for CG production, thus giving you more CG for more specialists. Etc. etc. etc.


Like Catalytic Converters, Pearl Divers is an economy-re-arranging civic. It's not just a 1-for-1 swap comparison, but what those swaps mean as macro-economic rebalances occur.
 
  • 7
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
arent the aquatics extremely limited to only ocean or wetworlds and goign to have a hard time building dedicated energy or alloy worlds? afaik wet worlds have few industrial districs
 
  • 1
Reactions:
arent the aquatics extremely limited to only ocean or wetworlds and goign to have a hard time building dedicated energy or alloy worlds? afaik wet worlds have few industrial districs

Industrial districts are limited by planet size not type. Wet worlds on average have more food districts than energy or minerals, dry have more energy than minerals or food, and cold have more minerals than energy or food.

That said, early game I find space minerals scale up faster because they don't require jobs at all.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Fair point. Net difference between two angler farming districts and a regular farming district+industrial district is +8 TV, -2 mineral upkeep, -1 metallurgist job. And when you put it like that I can agree, doesn't sound as bad as before.
I'd still like to see the food upkeep for pearl divers removed though; just feels like the civic should have slightly better food output than normal, and while it's the same per-job a dedicated food world is going to produce less per district than a normal empire. Districts are what's capped per planet, not jobs, so a regular empire food world can have a much higher food output potential than an angler one. Though not being restricted by planet features mitigates that more or less I guess.
 
Fair point. Net difference between two angler farming districts and a regular farming district+industrial district is +8 TV, -2 mineral upkeep, -1 metallurgist job. And when you put it like that I can agree, doesn't sound as bad as before.
It'd probably look better if you framed it as +2 minerals saved, or even +8: the metallurgist would be auto-filled on district completion and would take 6 minerals in and of itself. Unless you have starting indentured slaves or time a specialist building completion so that you can unemploy the alloy worker without the building being completed, that's effectively an unavoidable cost.

The bigger issue that no one mentions is that it's administratively inefficient, in that this will invoke a higher starting sprawl than most empires. Currently trivial, but likely to be significant in the upcoming admin rework.

I'd still like to see the food upkeep for pearl divers removed though; just feels like the civic should have slightly better food output than normal, and while it's the same per-job a dedicated food world is going to produce less per district than a normal empire. Districts are what's capped per planet, not jobs, so a regular empire food world can have a much higher food output potential than an angler one. Though not being restricted by planet features mitigates that more or less I guess.

Pops are more limited than districts, though, so while a normal farm world might have more aggregate food production, it's not getting as much food production per pop. Given the post-3.0 pop economy, especially when going wide, habitats, or filling mega-worlds, that's far more important.

It also in turn ties into the mechanical synergy with Aquatic and Hydrocentric ascension. With hydrocentric ascension, you can start mass-terraforming worlds to Oceans- your ideal habitability- decades sooner than that tech and cost requirements for getting Gaia worlds. When you do, all your worlds become potential bread baskets.

This, in turn, supports 2 mid-game power spikes: Bio-Ascension, and Ecumenopoli. For bio-Ascension, the introduction is a huge initial impact to your food economy, as each planet takes 30 food for the building- but with wet worlds, any world can support that load with new districts instead of converting old districts, for a much easier and cheaper to mitigate issue. Whereas when the first Ecumenopi comes online, Catalytic Converter-Anglers empires will be able to support more alloy workers with fewer worker-upkeep pops, freeing them up to move more of their empire's population into the Ecumenopoli as fast as you can build districts.
 
  • 2
Reactions: