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Are Submarines Worthless?

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blueparapara said:
blue emu,

i just have one question to this excellent guide/AAR: you mentioned that from the start you were building the 1938 model of the subs. Now seeing as the start date is 1936, did you wait until the tech for 1938 was completed before you started your production queues? Or did you instead just build the older models while waiting for the tech?
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I rushed the 1938 tech. In retrospect, perhaps I should have started by building the 1936 model instead of waiting... that model is fine for the inner patrol line (Grand Banks - Seamounts - Azores - Coast of Portugal), it's only the outer patrol line (Coast of Bissao - Cap Verde - Coast of Recife - Gibraltar) that needs the long-range U-Boats.

zardnaar said:
If I may ask a question as well. How do you get the popups to appear when your fleets encounter AI units.
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midget_roxx is correct. Right-click on the message and set the pop-up-and-pause option.

midget_roxx said:
C'mon guys, 6 months dead and you're bringing it back from the depths
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We can't let the thread die yet... it's almost reached a quarter-of-a-million views!
 
midget_roxx said:
C'mon guys, 6 months dead and you're bringing it back from the depths :p
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Emu threads never die! Though they do get spammed on his birthday. :D

invaded.jpg
 
Dunno if anyone still reads this thread, but a few more bits of advice for anyone launching a sub campaign with the Germans:
At the start of the game, DOW and annex Denmark, then liberate Iceland (puppet government set up) ban them from your alliance so the allies can't attack it, then base all your U-Boats in Rejkjavik, and fly some naval bombers up there as well. You now have an impervious U-Boat base, with bombers that have easy access to the "black hole" outside of British air defenses.

In early 1939, go to work influencing Yugoslavia, bring them to the Axis, and shove about 20 flotillas into their naval bases before the war starts, giving you a strong Med raiding presence. Raiding off the coast of Sicily is in a massive choke point for allied convoys and they cannot be redirected around your boats. Once the Italians get into the war, the British Med fleet can be removed and you can raid at will.

Edit: Also, Emu, I just had the first successes for my U-Boats. In the opening 2 weeks of the war they managed to sink 110 transports and 10 escorts. :O
 
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Just another little update here, as far as strategy is concerned. Germany starts the game with a number of cruisers and light cruisers. I made a task force of the 3 cruisers, screened by 3 light cruisers. I upgraded all ships with fire control and radar, and sent them raiding in the south-east atlantic, I believe called the Gambian Basin, where they did HUGE damage, easily getting between 10 - 20 a month, plus a few escorts. And when a british ASW unit caught one of my nearby sub groups, I would send the cruisers after them and sink them quickly, which really put a damper on u-boat losses.
 
Subs aren't completely useless but theres better things to doas Germany. If you like naval power build X6 Bismarks in 36. You can have 12 of them by 1939.Add a few naval bombers and you can own the RN in a more or less fair fight.
 
The Bismarcks are better than the subs, and can be used to invade the USA and are battleships. Battleships=more fun:p
 
These calculations are from HOI2Wiki, from the table of HOI2 : cost of ONE Improved Battleship 10, buildtime 730 : 7300 IC-days. Cost of one Medium range sub : 2, buildtime 160 : 320 IC-days. Long range sub is cost 3, build 160 : 480 IC-days. So you get more than 22 medium subs, or more than 15 Long range subs. And this is without the serialbuilding costreduction! I would ANYTIME match TWO of your battleships against 22 (more likely about 26, due to cost reduction:D) mediumrange subs, and naval or tac bombers for the price of the other Battleship (that is basic tac 15/basic nav 13 xtime 180 : about 2000-2340 IC-days per plane, without Costreduction. So I will get 3 planes, and one more than ½ finished, to sink your Bismark and Tirpitz with, and my subs to pin you, and try and sink you at night.
And this is without counting your Excortships into the mix..I might be building THEM -I have to Invade somehow, you know! :D

Even if prices have changed somewhat, it still is valid : A BB-fleet is simply TOO expensive, as in real life...
 
Yeah but they're battleships:p BBs = more fun. Also subs suffer in the late game more30 sub fleets are a bit gamey/unrealistic.
 
BlitzMartinDK said:
These calculations are from HOI2Wiki, from the table of HOI2 : cost of ONE Improved Battleship 10, buildtime 730 : 7300 IC-days. Cost of one Medium range sub : 2, buildtime 160 : 320 IC-days. Long range sub is cost 3, build 160 : 480 IC-days. So you get more than 22 medium subs, or more than 15 Long range subs. And this is without the serialbuilding costreduction! I would ANYTIME match TWO of your battleships against 22 (more likely about 26, due to cost reduction:D) mediumrange subs, and naval or tac bombers for the price of the other Battleship (that is basic tac 15/basic nav 13 xtime 180 : about 2000-2340 IC-days per plane, without Costreduction. So I will get 3 planes, and one more than ½ finished, to sink your Bismark and Tirpitz with, and my subs to pin you, and try and sink you at night.
And this is without counting your Excortships into the mix..I might be building THEM -I have to Invade somehow, you know! :D

Even if prices have changed somewhat, it still is valid : A BB-fleet is simply TOO expensive, as in real life...
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Yes it's true that 22 subs would beat a BB, except you also have to see it as what is appropriate at the time. If you want to go invading the US for example, 22 subs won't protect your fleet from getting hit by bombers and if an enemy fleet closes with your TPs/SSs then your TP's are going to take a serious beating.

Same goes with the airplanes, since they will spot the enemy fleet tryin to intercept your TPs but they won't be able to hold up the fleet that is going to destroy your ships
 
midget_roxx said:
Yes it's true that 22 subs would beat a BB, except you also have to see it as what is appropriate at the time. If you want to go invading the US for example, 22 subs won't protect your fleet from getting hit by bombers and if an enemy fleet closes with your TPs/SSs then your TP's are going to take a serious beating.

Same goes with the airplanes, since they will spot the enemy fleet tryin to intercept your TPs but they won't be able to hold up the fleet that is going to destroy your ships
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Those 22 subs can very well protect the fleet! As long as the 2 bb's are fighting the subs in the NEXT seazone! And it will take a LONG time to sink 22 subs with only 2 BB's :D
And if the enemy has IC-days to produce bombers too, then I also have some more IC-days?
If we have equal IC-days, And he builds many BB's, I win -quite simply.
Don't forget, that for each capital ship, you should have 1.5 escort : you need to have one escort for each Capital, and a bit extra to take as losses..Escorts have a tendency to get hit more often..
 
BB generally will get better positioning and so the subs range will be too low, and so the BB's will be firing when the subs aren't. Sure this holds up the enemy fleet, but what happens if 2 DD's come around and engage your transports?
 
midget_roxx said:
BB generally will get better positioning and so the subs range will be too low, and so the BB's will be firing when the subs aren't. Sure this holds up the enemy fleet, but what happens if 2 DD's come around and engage your transports?
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Well, you will have to build those DD's too ..that invalidates the comparison :(..On the other hand - If you have no escorts, your positioning drops! -I have OFTEN surprised inadequately excorted Capital Ships with subs only!)

And your two BB's will take a long time to sink my 22 subs, all the while being bombed by my 3 tac's! If you loose just one BB, thats half of your investement gone, and it will take 2 years to build a new one!

But, of course it is WAY cooler to build Cool, Inefficient stuff..Just like Hitler did in real life (We haff the Greates Fighter ever! ..ja..Aber it must be a Bomber!! (me262)..Lets have an even bigger tank! -what we really need are a LOT of PanzerIV's yesterday..Instead you will give us -quote from Wiki :"Only 492 units were produced: 1 in 1943, 379 in 1944, and 112 in 1945"
..Of course you can win against the AI almost anyway you choose...but come on!
 
IRL subs were not effective after 1944 as ASW had surpassed them. BB happily did shore bombardment and carrier defense up till 2003 [ Iowa class USA ] . All these unit types are valuable and a proper mix is needed. BB are not useless and neither are subs.
 
Big Tex 63 said:
IRL subs were not effective after 1944 as ASW had surpassed them. BB happily did shore bombardment and carrier defense up till 2003 [ Iowa class USA ] . All these unit types are valuable and a proper mix is needed. BB are not useless and neither are subs.
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That is of course correct. By the way, after the Iowa class, how many new BB classes have been constructed/planned/buildt? How many different submarines classes ?? ...I think you get my point...

But back to the game : My point is, that BB's of course are nice and Cool, but submarines can be more useful, and certainly cheaper!
 
In game though a BB fleet does't become obsolete unless you are facing the USA. Rest of the world lacks carriers/doctrines to use them or the IC to build enough of them. I've had super heavy BB ships soldier on until the 50's in HoI. Subs also can't scout enemy shores or bombard either. It seems to be regarded as gamey to build large stacks of subs, even if effective. Personally I hate the micromanagement required to blockade England. Starve English troops oversseas. Why bother when you can just wipe them out. Blockade England or just invade them instead?

Any XYZ unit strategy seems to work in HoI2 though as long as you build enough of them. BB, subs, strat bombers, tac bombers, paratroppers etc.
 
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