A new currency design
- Thread starter Johan
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Johan, I would have to emphatically disagree with making Military Traditions automatically unlock for whoever every 20 years. Granting the Traditions for nations who engage in little if any warfare nor actions seems trading the current system (while many say is not ideal), for one that gives no reward for engaging in warfare or good leaders. Admittedly in this aspect at least the current system seems to be somewhat better. Spent probably 40 hours watching livestreams and YT videos of the content so far in the background since launch (been playing a lot of DH waiting for 1.1).
I would suggest perhaps having it not based on a simple 20 year unlock scheme to one based on actions taken. Perhaps having a substitute function similar to tech. Perhaps base points being rewarded just as army/navy tradition is in EU3/4?
Possible scenarios. "Tradition Points" would be added based on army/naval maintenance (higher maintenance faster tradition progress). Higher martial rating of ruler/co-ruler and spouse? Faster Military Tradition. Martial Monarchy? Faster tradition progress. Democracy? Slower Progress. Base progress of a set amount monthly that can't go below 0. Win a war? Tradition points added by what the warscore was. Lose a war? Points deducted based on the warscore. Successful defensive war? Double the tradition progress earned from the war. Successfully force a claim via war? Add points. Win a civil war? More Tradition points. Force a nation to meet the demands for a province? Progress points. Defeat some pirates? Progress points based on pirate fleet size (small). Win a major battle? Progress points.
You do know you are just talking about current Military Power with additional ways of acquiring it, right?
Not that there's anything wrong with it. I'm also not in favor of the flat 'tradition every 20y' mechanic, even if we assume there will be multiple modifiers affecting it. As of right now, I haven't seen any confirmation that after removal of the monarch points (#mana) rulers skill will have any impact on the state they're running (very worrying!) and, AFAIK that's what the monarch points are for. HIghly skilled and succesful generals who later became rulers tended to influence the countrys military (Marian reforms, anyone?) and, I found Military Power and Traditions to be a great approximation of that dynamic. I would take that or other mana actions anytime over a flat modifier to army/naval morale, or relations/income/whatnot, though I would probably have them implemented sligthly different myself. I hope you guys have some other solutions to make rulers still feel meaningful!
I am a bit sad and disappointed that pop management is pushed back in favor of the monarch points rework. This is IMO *the* worst system in the entire game. The fact that pop conversion is instantenous is way too cheesy and is an immersion breaker for me. I would rather it got removed entirely until its reworked and then re-released than have it left unchanged ingame. The inventions seem a little silly when you think about it, too and, I liked the idea of them 'costing' stability more. But if it is to be gold, there was a great idea (in this thread I think?) of it being a modifier to the gross income during a set amount of time after which the invention is implemented, rather than an upfront one time payment and immediate effect.
As a finishing note, let me just say it's kinda amusing to see people getting so hyped over replacing monarch points with another fully abstract resource. Don't get me wrong, I see the value of making actions cost something else than mana - but IMO that does not necessitate the removal of mana itself. I just don't really see the reason for it. Making an action cost 2 resources instead of 1 (as an example: a claim having a cost in both OP *and* AE) would do miracles for the depth (or perceived depth) of the game IMO. Of course it would make the entire game much harder to balance;]
Anyway, cheers, dev team! This *IS* the best game you have released so far and I'm happy you keep working on it - can't wait to see what it becomes in some time!
Right... Time. I wish I had enough time to properly play it
The problems are not "abstract resources". Prestige in CK2 is an abstract "resource" and next to no people have problems with it. The problems are "abstract resources" that are so generic and devoid of meaning that they function as substitutes for game mechanics. Actions like converting pops and bribing individuals are vastly different from each other but function in exactly the same way, which is by pressing a button that implicates a reduction in oratory power under the general assumption "imagine you are using state resources, like diplomats or priests, to do that".
Exchanging said generic resources for more specific resources with more specific applications will not solve the problem, but it's a gigantic step in that direction.
Where did I say it wasn't in part similar? Furthermore, it's not a catch-all as even Military Tradition is in EU (where it's used to recruit generals/admirals/explorer/conquistadors out of thin air). It's far less generic than even Land/Naval Tradition are in EU in fact. It's entirely used for the Traditions, as a viable progress towards acquiring new military Traditions. Implying I'm asking for the same thing as Military Power now either means you didn't really read what I posted and inferred something totally different from what I said. This is far less of an "abstract currency" than just about anything in the game, and entirely makes sense for its purpose if one thinks of how the game could properly simulate a nation building a martial tradition and unlocking the features it entails.
I can't ever recall anyone calling to scrap the Military Tradition system in EU and being genuinely serious about it. Since we have numerous actual characters to turn into generals the need for an "abstract currency" at all here is non existent. As I said, this is more akin to a progress bar where points are added or subtracted towards based on actions/events in game, even the progress points to be westernized in Vicki 2 is more of an "abstract currency" than the one I am suggesting, which would be absurd to claim it is. By this reasoning tech progress points are "abstract currencies"
Anyhow, as is known, a lot of military tasks that currently require military power are being replaced via monetary or just actions that seem to occur naturally by the nature of having the soldiers/sailors to do them (building roads, which imo should have SOME modest/small gold cost to build on top of the mere time it takes to build them which is to replace the current military power cost for example). There are ways to simulate how tasks can be carried out by the militaries that do not need an abstract currency, like movement speed, perhaps a immediate drop in the organization/morale percentage/rating of a unit in exchange for an action taken (like how the massive naval ships can cause a single breach in a coastal province fortress in the upcoming 1.1 update, I would think it causes some sort of organization/damage to them in exchange).
***Main point*** By streamlining things to be more directed as a progress bar function that aren't normally a "instant" action or one initiated via an expenditure of money (or just one that should be executed normally with change to the unit doing it, like road building/forced march/etc impact movement/morale/org/etc), similar to tech, which can be influenced based on actions taken in game, or tech/inventions, you get a much more realistic simulation which doesn't need an "abstract currency" that is randomly used for whatever, which is the major problem some have had with these things.
@Gutie
I totally agree with your main point here. Personally I've never had any issues with the monarch points or any other abstract currency - only this instant nature of some of the actions feels wrong to me. I'm pretty sure the dev team had ideas how to improve mana mechanics over time, possibly even similar in general to your own ideas of building on the Military Power idea. As a side note: I didn't mean to imply that there is no difference between your idea and MP, but from my point of view you're proposing improvements to mechanic that's being removed. Or, to be more precise, implementing a mechanic that's very similar to one that's being removed. Now, I don't mind removing monarch points either, as long as systems implemented in their place are better - which we have no way of knowing yet.
For the sake of an interesting argument let me say that if you think about it, science points ARE an abstraction of an effort put into discovering a technology, with quite a bit of simplification. Out of PDX games (and possibly even all games in general) I've played Stellaris probably has the best approximation of a scientific process, with its main science disciplines you could focus on. I also love CK2s tech dispersion/spread over time mechanic, wonder if it could be applied to I:R Inventions somehow... Also, let's be honest: in PDSs games almost every number we come across, except *maybe* money and manpower, can be described a more or less abstract resource. These are just games. Games that at its base, have always been about managing said resources in a way that lets you fulfill your goal.
Now, I know that road building here was just an example of a general idea (that I also agree with) but i wanted to discuss it a little further: I could argue that you already have some minor monetary cost to buidling a road. You have to pay wages to your troops, pay the army that is doing nothing else than building that road at the moment. I haven't played as Rome/Latin entity so I don't know if wages affect road building time but that would be an interesting mechanic IMO.
Cheers! :]
[EDIT]: corrected some typos (there's probs still plenty more, sry!)
I totally agree with your main point here. Personally I've never had any issues with the monarch points or any other abstract currency - only this instant nature of some of the actions feels wrong to me. I'm pretty sure the dev team had ideas how to improve mana mechanics over time, possibly even similar in general to your own ideas of building on the Military Power idea. As a side note: I didn't mean to imply that there is no difference between your idea and MP, but from my point of view you're proposing improvements to mechanic that's being removed. Or, to be more precise, implementing a mechanic that's very similar to one that's being removed. Now, I don't mind removing monarch points either, as long as systems implemented in their place are better - which we have no way of knowing yet.
For the sake of an interesting argument let me say that if you think about it, science points ARE an abstraction of an effort put into discovering a technology, with quite a bit of simplification. Out of PDX games (and possibly even all games in general) I've played Stellaris probably has the best approximation of a scientific process, with its main science disciplines you could focus on. I also love CK2s tech dispersion/spread over time mechanic, wonder if it could be applied to I:R Inventions somehow... Also, let's be honest: in PDSs games almost every number we come across, except *maybe* money and manpower, can be described a more or less abstract resource. These are just games. Games that at its base, have always been about managing said resources in a way that lets you fulfill your goal.
Now, I know that road building here was just an example of a general idea (that I also agree with) but i wanted to discuss it a little further: I could argue that you already have some minor monetary cost to buidling a road. You have to pay wages to your troops, pay the army that is doing nothing else than building that road at the moment. I haven't played as Rome/Latin entity so I don't know if wages affect road building time but that would be an interesting mechanic IMO.
Cheers! :]
[EDIT]: corrected some typos (there's probs still plenty more, sry!)
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Military Tradition =/= Military points
I just thought I'd clear the air on that, as you CANNOT recruit generals with purely Military Tradition in EU IV. Military Tradition gives your armies buffs and increases the likelihood of rolling a decent general, but that's about it.
I just thought I'd clear the air on that, as you CANNOT recruit generals with purely Military Tradition in EU IV. Military Tradition gives your armies buffs and increases the likelihood of rolling a decent general, but that's about it.
Don't mean military tradition in EUIV can be used in Imperator: Rome and that you could use it as a resource to develop Imperator: Rome military traditions. Now you have a choice between a long term advantage in form of an extra military tradition or a short term one in terms of the passive buffs from the EUIV style military tradition.
No, I was specifically replying to where he said that EU IV military tradition could be used that way in EU IV. Not whether it could be used in Imperator that way.