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Oglesby

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The difference is that the amount of money or manpower available to you are an immediate consequence of your interaction with the map.
Like gold in warcraft, minerals in starcraft, etc.

Monarch power income remains the same no matter what you do.

You'll still waiting, but you'll be waiting for something that gets bigger the more you play.

Now, that won't solve the numerous problems of Imperator, and none one said that it would (or they are fools), but that will at least put an end to a crazy boardgame mechanic that has nothing to do in a computer GSG.

Since it is based on income, the interactions you have on the map that increase your income also increases the cost.

Also the more income you have the more costs you will have too (since wages are based on income) so technically as your gross income increases it is most likely that your next income will reduce meaning that you will probably have to wait longer to get 4 months income.
 
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mak-k

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But with the system of income for 4 months, I do not see now whether this is good or bad. How a small state will feel like itself, receiving 100 gold in a month and like something that gets 100,000. But without screaming that this is not possible. Although the system as a whole is understandable, but it causes great insights, there have already been requests for possible manipulations
-
 

mak-k

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I assume that I build my mod with a bunch of other income mechanics and more realistic income. But this applies to everything. But no matter how I did, the basic mechanics of the game is the foundation that you take into account and sometimes you can’t do something. I do not see at the moment how to solve it, but what they offer is extremely vague.
 
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Just Tall

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The higher income = The better situation.

50 gold/m vs 500 gold/m

50: 600 gold for year. If you purchase 2 inventions every year, you will have 200 gold for spending on other staff.
500: 6000 gold for year. If you purchase 2 inventions every year, you will have 2000 gold for spending on other staff.
 

mak-k

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I proceed from the calculation of 1 gold = 15,000 denarii or 67.4 silver


-Again, I proceed from the standard of money turnover at that time and the weight of money in silver
 
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Oglesby

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The higher income = The better situation.

50 gold/m vs 500 gold/m

50: 600 gold for year. If you purchase 2 inventions every year, you will have 200 gold for spending on other staff.
500: 6000 gold for year. If you purchase 2 inventions every year, you will have 2000 gold for spending on other staff.

I am not disputing that more income is a better situation.

In this case I was disputing what Siegfriedfr said, "You'll still waiting, but you'll be waiting for something that gets bigger the more you play." because the amount you are waiting for is also increasing by the same factor. And originally Bomber678's claim that this is so much better since I no longer have to sit and wait.
 

Avian Overlord

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You people are actually going to completely change the core political and economic mechanics of the game thanks to feedback post release.

You are complete madmen, and I mean that in the best possible way.
 

Xdevo

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I disagree with you.Victoria 1 and 2 are the more deepest in economic terms Paradox Game ever.In these games,i never want to do war.You have so many things to do in peace time with the economy and internal politics that i simply never want to do war.And personally,i prefer this to a mana map-painter.But it's my opinion of course.Different persons can have different tastes.I can understand that perfectly.
I like Victoria 2. I don't want every game to be Victoria 2. I can also recognize the faults in a game I like and can make criticisms of its systems to give reason to not attempting to add its systems to games with different focuses and goals.

Homogeneity is not the solution to a bland game.

(Also not declaring war in Vic2 is a terrible strategy, access to key resources depends on good border positioning before 1870, literally ever civ minor's strategy in that game should be to invade Sokoto and Sindh as soon as they can.)
 
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Bomber678

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Ok, I need help. I have seen this logic various times and I don't see the distinction.

First you do realize that it will take time to get money. That when they say income they tend to talk about gross income, which is what you make before subtracting what you are spending? So unless you are not spending anything you will quite possibly be forced to watch the game for years on speed 5 to get enough gold to still do/gain nothing?

So can someone help me in understanding how we are no longer sitting and waiting for a different colors thingy to grow so we can click a button?

It's actually easy to understand, the big difference between a wealth (money) cost and a monarch cost is that I AS THE PLAYER can influence it.
For example with the new system I can decide to get inventions as a priority, meaning every 4 month equals one new invention. That decision will cost me troops, buildings (marketplace etc.) and other stuff, but a couple of inventions directly on game start could have huge impact on the game (for example the -aggression or -tyranny inventions). On the other side I can decide to spend all my money for new armys (while falling behind on inventions) to annex a neighbor "faster" -> getting more money or even enough money in the peace deal to speed up inventions/buildings etc.
Basically combining more player decisions to money or manpower are universally great because it creates a real choice. Only issue with that usually is multiplayer because it means people can use unintended huge impact choices (like only getting inventions, or only building armys to steamroll other players, etc.). My guess since release is that the decision for 4 different monarch powers was mainly for multiplayer.

If it is still not obvious how that is different from the current system:
Check military power. I as player can't really influence it because it is mostly rng how much I get (rule/heir/senators). Paradox will change that to a pure "every 20 years you get another tradition" and honestly it functions exactly 1:1 the same as it is now. The only difference is that I don't have to try to elect some idiot military commander to build a road instead of getting my military tradition. Especially because building roads without money but with military power seems wrong in itself. Similar with civic power, its just a horrible design to force an rng based gain the player can't influence. So if rng is good you can move a slave every month currently, if rng is great you can move 2 slaves every month and if rng hits you, you can move one slave every 5 month... -> I have no way to influence that. With a money cost that would be a great system, because I could always decide if I want to spend 100 gold (for example) to move a slave or not, etc.
Basically every decision in imperator currently is locked in the mentioned way above -> You are forced to rely purely on rng, can't decide anything and are basically forced to watch these powers going up to do one decision. On top of that you mostly don't even have a decision, for example currently a player spending civic power on anything else than inventions is actually hurting himself an that is at least in my opinion a horrible game design especially if it is the only design.
 

GundamMerc

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It's actually easy to understand, the big difference between a wealth (money) cost and a monarch cost is that I AS THE PLAYER can influence it.
For example with the new system I can decide to get inventions as a priority, meaning every 4 month equals one new invention. That decision will cost me troops, buildings (marketplace etc.) and other stuff, but a couple of inventions directly on game start could have huge impact on the game (for example the -aggression or -tyranny inventions). On the other side I can decide to spend all my money for new armys (while falling behind on inventions) to annex a neighbor "faster" -> getting more money or even enough money in the peace deal to speed up inventions/buildings etc.
Basically combining more player decisions to money or manpower are universally great because it creates a real choice. Only issue with that usually is multiplayer because it means people can use unintended huge impact choices (like only getting inventions, or only building armys to steamroll other players, etc.). My guess since release is that the decision for 4 different monarch powers was mainly for multiplayer.

If it is still not obvious how that is different from the current system:
Check military power. I as player can't really influence it because it is mostly rng how much I get (rule/heir/senators). Paradox will change that to a pure "every 20 years you get another tradition" and honestly it functions exactly 1:1 the same as it is now. The only difference is that I don't have to try to elect some idiot military commander to build a road instead of getting my military tradition. Especially because building roads without money but with military power seems wrong in itself. Similar with civic power, its just a horrible design to force an rng based gain the player can't influence. So if rng is good you can move a slave every month currently, if rng is great you can move 2 slaves every month and if rng hits you, you can move one slave every 5 month... -> I have no way to influence that. With a money cost that would be a great system, because I could always decide if I want to spend 100 gold (for example) to move a slave or not, etc.
Basically every decision in imperator currently is locked in the mentioned way above -> You are forced to rely purely on rng, can't decide anything and are basically forced to watch these powers going up to do one decision. On top of that you mostly don't even have a decision, for example currently a player spending civic power on anything else than inventions is actually hurting himself an that is at least in my opinion a horrible game design especially if it is the only design.

But you could influence it in EUIV... in fact you had about as much influence over it as your Monarch did. It's only in I:R that this is a major issue.
 

Bomber678

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But you could influence it in EUIV... in fact you had about as much influence over it as your Monarch did. It's only in I:R that this is a major issue.

ahem, yes?
Isn't this exactly what this whole thread is about? Noone said that the power system in euIV is bad or as terrible as in I:R. Isn't the comparison with euIV the main reason why we know that the current I:R monarch system is terrible?
 

GundamMerc

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ahem, yes?
Isn't this exactly what this whole thread is about? Noone said that the power system in euIV is bad or as terrible as in I:R. Isn't the comparison with euIV the main reason why we know that the current I:R monarch system is terrible?
Nevermind, I missed the word cost, and thought you were talking about the source itself. My apologies.
 

Oglesby

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It's actually easy to understand, the big difference between a wealth (money) cost and a monarch cost is that I AS THE PLAYER can influence it.
For example with the new system I can decide to get inventions as a priority, meaning every 4 month equals one new invention. That decision will cost me troops, buildings (marketplace etc.) and other stuff, but a couple of inventions directly on game start could have huge impact on the game (for example the -aggression or -tyranny inventions). On the other side I can decide to spend all my money for new armys (while falling behind on inventions) to annex a neighbor "faster" -> getting more money or even enough money in the peace deal to speed up inventions/buildings etc.
Basically combining more player decisions to money or manpower are universally great because it creates a real choice. Only issue with that usually is multiplayer because it means people can use unintended huge impact choices (like only getting inventions, or only building armys to steamroll other players, etc.). My guess since release is that the decision for 4 different monarch powers was mainly for multiplayer.

If it is still not obvious how that is different from the current system:
Check military power. I as player can't really influence it because it is mostly rng how much I get (rule/heir/senators). Paradox will change that to a pure "every 20 years you get another tradition" and honestly it functions exactly 1:1 the same as it is now. The only difference is that I don't have to try to elect some idiot military commander to build a road instead of getting my military tradition. Especially because building roads without money but with military power seems wrong in itself. Similar with civic power, its just a horrible design to force an rng based gain the player can't influence. So if rng is good you can move a slave every month currently, if rng is great you can move 2 slaves every month and if rng hits you, you can move one slave every 5 month... -> I have no way to influence that. With a money cost that would be a great system, because I could always decide if I want to spend 100 gold (for example) to move a slave or not, etc.
Basically every decision in imperator currently is locked in the mentioned way above -> You are forced to rely purely on rng, can't decide anything and are basically forced to watch these powers going up to do one decision. On top of that you mostly don't even have a decision, for example currently a player spending civic power on anything else than inventions is actually hurting himself an that is at least in my opinion a horrible game design especially if it is the only design.

As it is your gross income and not your net income you are very limited in what you can do to affect it. You will not be getting a new invention every four months unless you have no army, no navy, no character wages and no forts. Also if you want something (an invention) you will have to wait until your gold value is greater than 4 x gross income then click the button. You claim the difference in that you have choices on how to spend the currency but is that not true of the previous method? Also after that war where I claim all the gold technically I could have converted that into the old power system.

I am not arguing that we should go back to the old method. I am just wondering how we can claim that the new system is sooooo much better since we are no longer waiting for things to accrue to then press a button we want to push. (Which is what I was first responding to)
 

-JBurke-

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Military Traditions would work entirely differently, in that you would unlock a new slot every 20 years. We talked about tying it to tech, but that would put us in the same situation as ideas were in EU4, that it would hurt barbarians way too much. The 20 year value may change as we keep testing the game though.
So you're going to replace waiting around and clicking with more waiting around and clicking. Have you thought, just for a moment, about attaching technology to the things you do? Such as waging war earns you experience towards military tech the way military experience works in HoI4 towards advancing technology faster or improving weapons in your arsenal. A currency based advancement system is not bad, it's attaching it to "Every <insert number> years I'm permitted to do this" that makes Imperator so boring. You're just replacing one wait and click with another wait and click with no actual player agency.
 

Dual_CoRed

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Can’t agree with Jburke more. As Rome, the waiting around for mana to regenerate killed my campaign. No one would declare war on me, despite my obvious aggressive expansion, and really had nothing to do, so I just hit +5 speed and waited for a bunch of years. This game desperately needs more mechanics during peacetime.
 

Ffc

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This is great, I'm very happy to see Paradox listenning at fans.

I am not disputing that more income is a better situation.

In this case I was disputing what Siegfriedfr said, "You'll still waiting, but you'll be waiting for something that gets bigger the more you play." because the amount you are waiting for is also increasing by the same factor. And originally Bomber678's claim that this is so much better since I no longer have to sit and wait.

Maybe the cost shouldn't be depending lineary with income but increasing slower, just like a square root.