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Shebaloso

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Ok, I need help. I have seen this logic various times and I don't see the distinction.

First you do realize that it will take time to get money. That when they say income they tend to talk about gross income, which is what you make before subtracting what you are spending? So unless you are not spending anything you will quite possibly be forced to watch the game for years on speed 5 to get enough gold to still do/gain nothing?

So can someone help me in understanding how we are no longer sitting and waiting for a different colors thingy to grow so we can click a button?

Really superficial thinking. First of all, a myriad of actions that previously required mana of some kind will simply have their "costs" tied to organic abstractions that do not function as currencies, but general modifiers. Like Fabricating a claim generating aggressive expansion or endorsing a party implicating an increase in tyranny and a decrease in stability. Those actions before were tied directly to currency, so, at the very least, many (most, by Johan's post) actions have had their currency costs removed altogether, which literally means no waiting unless you're already in the extremes.

Second, that's the entire point of the criticism: what led you to fabricate claim was excess of oratory power. What were the implications of fabricating a claim? Other than the immediate reduction in oratory power, none. Now, fabricating a claim is actually tied to other mechanics rather than to pure currency management, having indirect impact on gameplay and, along with the other modifications, exponentially rising the level of interconnection between the many aspects of the game. Not only does it make much more sense from a representative point of view (having an abstraction like aggressive expansion, with its current modifiers and effects, rise when you actively pursue conflict makes PERFECT sense, or rather much more than simply spending scrolls), but also makes for MUCH more interesting gameplay. Before, I:R was simply a game of monopoly. How much can i spend with my current resources. Now, when many actions do not "cost" anything, I:R CAN become a game of real choices and real consequences that must be evaluated WITHIN the game's multiple abstractions, not just currency management.

Now, mana is not really gone for good. But that is not a problem, because the argument was, for the most part, against the indiscriminate use of a "represents literally everything" mana-like resource in I:R. First of all, Political Influence isn't really a "jack of all trades" resource. It's meant to represent a specific thing, which is the political standing within the nation's grandees, so its uses are inextricably tied to the political field, with uses like changing laws. Not only that, it's not an arbitrary and static value, but the product of the interaction between possibly dozens of characters, additionally working organically with other mechanics, like loyalty, so subject to player's influence to a much higher degree than before, which is in line with MANY of the criticisms. Still, we have to take into account that there's not much information to work with other than that extraordinary dev diary, so skeptcism is paramount here.

Bottom line. No, it's not gonna be a waiting game, because mana as we knew it is gone. And thank the heavens, johan and every single beautiful being who had the humility and vision to admit may have been a grievous mistake in this company for that.
 
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Xdevo

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I interrupt you here. Jokes can be (and often are) logical fallacies.

That's still not what a strawman is. The guy I responded to wasn't even making an argument in the first place; he just named dropped M&T as some solution to all the world's problems. I just pointed out the most obvious and glaring fault in the mod to demonstrate why its not the solution to any of the problems he was inferring it was.

It's not a "poor mans" attempt at anything. M&T is a phenomenal mod and the devs should absolutely take inspiration from what they've done. A LOT of the mechanics of M&T are just flat out superior to what vanilla has to offer.

They directly lifted numerous concepts, mechanics, and themes directly from Victoria and Victoria 2. Because of this, it faces almost all of the same faults as Victoria 2: extreme linearity (specific strategies are *always* the best, so there's no actual choice involved), terrible methods of showing the player information, intentionally hiding important information for making informed choices, and having important game mechanics based behind RNG (badboy in Vic2). Though, M&T does all of these to far worse degrees and has the the unfortunate additions of much worse railroading than Vic2 when it comes to its accepted version of historic events and obviously has the aforementioned UI issues. Hence, why I state its a poor man's version of Vic2.

I'd rather the devs not try to resteal their own ideas from Vic2 and shove them into a game that has a completely and utterly different focus than Vic2 just to appease an incredibly niche audience of an incredibly niche mod for another game that has a different focus. Not every game is attempting to be a economic-political simulator, and not every game should be one.

The fact that you dont understand the mechanics doesnt mean they are no great. Yes, there is so much UI you can mod for a whole new game modded off vanilla. So what? Doesnt mean its not a far better experience than most pdx vanilla games. And they just keep improving it. Which is why its the only thing some of us can play this days to not be bored to death. Its okat if you dont like it/undersrand it. But it doesnt mean it isnt far supperior to waiting a few months to pile mana, click a button and magically increase development.
Yeah, tell me I don't understand the mechanics and then act like your opinion is the only objectively correct one while handwaving glaring faults. That's a good way to show me the error of my ways in not worshiping the one true mod :rolleyes:. God forbid people understand what opportunity cost means anymore.

I've played M&T and understood enough to break the game's systems to the point where the game was trivially easy until it crashed. Congrats, you enjoyed it. I didn't because it was far easier to break than Vanilla, and individual choices mattered far less than the random events / non-nonsensical railroading events that the game would throw at you for not being the correct country. Vic2 at least had the decency of recognizing that history followed causality.
 

neonit

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Sounds good. The only part i dont like is "months of income". If the price was relative to size, or pops - that makes sense. But just because you make more money doesnt mean that everything gets more expensive.
 

magriboy0750

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That's still not what a strawman is. The guy I responded to wasn't even making an argument in the first place; he just named dropped M&T as some solution to all the world's problems. I just pointed out the most obvious and glaring fault in the mod to demonstrate why its not the solution to any of the problems he was inferring it was.



They directly lifted numerous concepts, mechanics, and themes directly from Victoria and Victoria 2. Because of this, it faces almost all of the same faults as Victoria 2: extreme linearity (specific strategies are *always* the best, so there's no actual choice involved), terrible methods of showing the player information, intentionally hiding important information for making informed choices, and having important game mechanics based behind RNG (badboy in Vic2). Though, M&T does all of these to far worse degrees and has the the unfortunate additions of much worse railroading than Vic2 when it comes to its accepted version of historic events and obviously has the aforementioned UI issues. Hence, why I state its a poor man's version of Vic2.

I'd rather the devs not try to resteal their own ideas from Vic2 and shove them into a game that has a completely and utterly different focus than Vic2 just to appease an incredibly niche audience of an incredibly niche mod for another game that has a different focus. Not every game is attempting to be a economic-political simulator, and not every game should be one.


Yeah, tell me I don't understand the mechanics and then act like your opinion is the only objectively correct one while handwaving glaring faults. That's a good way to show me the error of my ways in not worshiping the one true mod :rolleyes:. God forbid people understand what opportunity cost means anymore.

I've played M&T and understood enough to break the game's systems to the point where the game was trivially easy until it crashed. Congrats, you enjoyed it. I didn't because it was far easier to break than Vanilla, and individual choices mattered far less than the random events / non-nonsensical railroading events that the game would throw at you for not being the correct country. Vic2 at least had the decency of recognizing that history followed causality.
I disagree with you.Victoria 1 and 2 are the more deepest in economic terms Paradox Game ever.In these games,i never want to do war.You have so many things to do in peace time with the economy and internal politics that i simply never want to do war.And personally,i prefer this to a mana map-painter.But it's my opinion of course.Different persons can have different tastes.I can understand that perfectly.
 

durbal

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I disagree with you.Victoria 1 and 2 are the more deepest in economic terms Paradox Game ever.In these games,i never want to do war.You have so many things to do in peace time with the economy and internal politics that i simply never want to do war.And personally,i prefer this to a mana map-painter.But it's my opinion of course.Different persons can have different tastes.I can understand that perfectly.

They're more complex than deep, unfortunately. And the economic model is inherently flawed.

I still love the concept of Vicky2, but on top of the flawed economic model (many threads in the Vicky2 forum about this), stupid stuff like losing a war and creating unrest to pass reforms and then have socialists everywhere (socialists are just better for some reason) are inherent problems.
 
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GundamMerc

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Yeah, tell me I don't understand the mechanics and then act like your opinion is the only objectively correct one while handwaving glaring faults. That's a good way to show me the error of my ways in not worshiping the one true mod :rolleyes:. God forbid people understand what opportunity cost means anymore.

I've played M&T and understood enough to break the game's systems to the point where the game was trivially easy until it crashed. Congrats, you enjoyed it. I didn't because it was far easier to break than Vanilla, and individual choices mattered far less than the random events / non-nonsensical railroading events that the game would throw at you for not being the correct country. Vic2 at least had the decency of recognizing that history followed causality.
Don't bother trying to convince them. It's the same kind of thinking that unironically states "He's just a fanboy, (never mind he's criticized the game for various things), he couldn't possibly have a valid opinion," while agreeing wholeheartedly with people who want to rip mechanics wholesale from other games without much change.
 

magriboy0750

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They're more complex than deep, unfortunately. And the economic model is inherently flawed.

I still love the concept of Vicky2, but on top of the flawed economic model (many threads in the Vicky2 forum about this), stupid stuff like losing a war and creating unrest to pass reforms and then have socialists everywhere (socialists are just better for some reason) are inherent problems.
They are still more deep than Imperator 1.0 anyway.1.1 will considerably improve the game.As i have previously said in this thread,if you don't like changes,the solution is called 'revert to the version that suit tastes of you'.And it's a big advantage from Paradox.Not a lot of others developers let you the possibilty to rollback your version.
 

cristofolmc

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So the mistery has been solved. The mana removal will come in the 1.2 patch. In september. So the pop assimilation, promotion and movement overhaul might come in 1.2 too, since from Johan words we all thought this change would come in 1.1.

71cb112fe6b6bc8e1590b88e8fdf6a028e96391a.jpg


I think it was the right call to wait to introduce such a massive overhaul to december, because I suppose it was too rush to re-overhaul already overhaul and new features they have been announcing in 1.1.

Looks like after the game has veen overhauled and fixed, they aim to adress the issue of lack of flavour with the first DLC focused on that, by the end of 2019. And then, on the Q2 of 2020, the first big expanssion, which by the sound of the name, might be focused on the diadocchi, with hopefully new unique features for them and better represent what went on amongst them.
 

Cardolam

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I think those are good news and should have the support and understanding of the players. I miss from the image the checks on territorial growth and the validations of other ways of playing outside territorial expansion.
 

Denkt

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1.1 feels like a bit of a Disappointment now we know that Power change will have to wait all way to September and 1.1 don't seems to solve the major issues with this game other than make the governments and character plotting interesting and some things such as development, republic government interaction and such seems quite uninspired.

Big issues such as fun empire building seems to have to wait for 1.2 or even longer Before it is fixed.
 

MohawkWolfo98

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So the mistery has been solved. The mana removal will come in the 1.2 patch. In september. So the pop assimilation, promotion and movement overhaul might come in 1.2 too, since from Johan words we all thought this change would come in 1.1.

71cb112fe6b6bc8e1590b88e8fdf6a028e96391a.jpg


I think it was the right call to wait to introduce such a massive overhaul to december, because I suppose it was too rush to re-overhaul already overhaul and new features they have been announcing in 1.1.

Looks like after the game has veen overhauled and fixed, they aim to adress the issue of lack of flavour with the first DLC focused on that, by the end of 2019. And then, on the Q2 of 2020, the first big expanssion, which by the sound of the name, might be focused on the diadocchi, with hopefully new unique features for them and better represent what went on amongst them.
I wonder if the content pack or expansion pack will rework republics and the Roman senate etc. I really hope so.

I’m liking this road map that they have laid out, and can’t wait to see the road being paved. Especially 1.2: I’m hoping that mana being removed, with it will have mechanics that will be tied more with pops, they seem rather underutilised atm. Perhaps instead of 4 months gold to purchase tech they could mix it with gold and a factor linking to pops, idk. :)

Does pushing the Mana rework to 1.2 means that the devs might change pops to not make it instant conversion, and it being more fluid and less static?
 

Denkt

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It would be quite easy to simply tie innovation cost to number of pops or number of pops with cost depending on average civlization value the pops live in so the higher civilization value the cheaper innovations become.
 

Cardolam

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Does pushing the Mana rework to 1.2 means that the devs might change pops to not make it instant conversion, and it being more fluid and less static?

I hope so. Also culture conversion.
 

cristofolmc

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with it will have mechanics that will be tied more with pops, they seem rather underutilised atm. Perhaps instead of 4 months gold to purchase tech they could mix it with gold and a factor linking to pops, idk. :)

Hear hear!

Pops and characters are the biggest but most underutilised features of this game. They are an unpolished dyamond. I think they should tie inventions to tech, which would also link them to pops indirectly. A bit more like tech in Victoria 2. With each tech level, there is a % chance of getting certain invention, from a range of 3 or something.

For that to work they'd have to overhaul the pop system so you cant with the click of a button turn all the pops of your country into citizens to get a 300% tech rate.
 
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MohawkWolfo98

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Hear hear!

Pops and characters are the biggest but most underutilised features of this game. They are an unpolished dyamond. I think they should tie inventions to tech, which would also link them to pops indirectly. A bit more like tech in Victoria 2. With each tech level, there is a % chance of getting certain invention, from a range of 3 or something.

For that to work they'd have to overhaul the pop system so you can with the click of a button turn all the pops of your country into citizens to get a 300% tech rate.
I found the literacy mechanic pretty cool, but god did I hate the % chance of the light bulb techs, it brings me bad memories of me being frustrated that I did not manage to unlock the tech to counter poison gas :p

I do like your idea tho, except maybe tweaking it such that it isn’t a percentage chance, but rather u have to unlock/buy/get certain techs first:)
 

cristofolmc

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I do like your idea tho, except maybe tweaking it such that it isn’t a percentage chance, but rather u have to unlock/buy/get certain techs first:)

Yeah, but thats just how it works now lol. And it doesnt add many choice. Maybe we could settle in the middle and go with the Stellaris solution, in which you CHOOSE from 3 inventions, hehe.
 

mak-k

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The game came out as terrible as nobody in a sober mind expected it to be. After all, there were already previous series and the conclusions from them were waiting. We wanted a good policy, for families, for a competent economy, for regional recruitment of armies and buildings - in general, something that could reflect the wealth of material. The most courageous were waiting for China, although in my opinion it would have been a sneer given the conditions in which China was located. But the point is not that. The players received a huge number of identical provinces, in which there was almost nothing to do but the whole development of the country comes down and I will stick in 1 building. And in the appendage to this gorgeous manna, so that more could have nothing to do, And the game came out so terrible that even the most loyal fans were shocked. A huge mass of players switched their anger to manna - as obvious, but in fact their displeasure as a whole to what they called the game. At its core, instead of trying to make a game based on economics development and war, we got pokemon go where we need to get more poking buttons. Therefore, on the one hand, the removal of the manna system is excellent, on the other hand, I do not see anywhere in the world how to play the game so that it is not a simulator of 50,000 provinces that are not needed.
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Siegfriedfr

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Ok, I need help. I have seen this logic various times and I don't see the distinction.

First you do realize that it will take time to get money. That when they say income they tend to talk about gross income, which is what you make before subtracting what you are spending? So unless you are not spending anything you will quite possibly be forced to watch the game for years on speed 5 to get enough gold to still do/gain nothing?

So can someone help me in understanding how we are no longer sitting and waiting for a different colors thingy to grow so we can click a button?
The difference is that the amount of money or manpower available to you are an immediate consequence of your interaction with the map.
Like gold in warcraft, minerals in starcraft, etc.

Monarch power income remains the same no matter what you do.

You'll still waiting, but you'll be waiting for something that gets bigger the more you play.

Now, that won't solve the numerous problems of Imperator, and none one said that it would (or they are fools), but that will at least put an end to a crazy boardgame mechanic that has nothing to do in a computer GSG.