EDIT: Please read the comment at the suggestions for 1.6 threadmark.
We liked the rework of some areas for 1.3 a lot because it notably improved strategic and tactical possibilities when playing in these areas. We hope Paradox will continue to rework other areas as well. We have played Imperator:Rome over the holidays, mainly as small Greek states, single player and multiplayer, and we figured out that the Peloponnese needs such a rework more than any other area. Here we have listed what we think should be done as improvements.
Problem: The current layout of the southern Peloponnese unduly favours Spartan expansion. Sparta borders Messenian Leuktron directly, therefore, if a war breaks out between Sparta and Messenia in the first years, before Messenia has finished building there a fortress, the Spartan army quickly marches to Messene, defeats the Messenians and while they’re besieging the fortress there, the zone of control of Sparta’s fortress occupies Leuktron. Messenia, which usually has only Lepryon as an ally, normally can’t defeat the Spartans by this point and gets annexed as soon as the fortress of Messene falls.
This makes Messenia much weaker than they were historically.
Problem: Wars between Sparta and Mantinea’s defensive league are too bogged down, because unless one side gets access from Argos Lepryon or allies with one them, the armies can move only between Sparta and Megalopolis. Such wars sorely lack a manoeuvre component:
If Sparta wins, they annex Megalopolis and make peace with the rest, (Megalopolis then becomes a shield safely protecting Sparta from the north); in any later war the Arcadians will have to besiege Megalopolis before they can attack Sparta itself or take a route along the coasts, potentially requesting access from third parties.
If the Arcadian defense league wins, then Megalopolis taking Spartan and nearby territories (which usually means either an elimination of Sparta from the game unless they manage to get a foothold elsewhere or Sparta reduced to the former Messenian area).
These outcomes get repetitive and thus boring.
Problem: Sparta produces olives, which gives them increased slave happiness. This doesn’t feel right because the Spartans treated the helots awfully.
Problem: Spartan government feels too generic.
Problem: Korinthos has a unique heritage and some unusual omens if it’s your national capital, but this nice flavor is wasted because it starts as part of Macedon and can only be made independent via generic mission, and is not playable unless one does the tag-switch via console command. People complained a lot about lack of flavour in I:R, don’t hide what have!
Problem: Forming Achaea and Argolis is laughably easy compared to other tier 1 formables. Achaea requires conquering only one city-state level neighbour (Patrai or Aigion, depending on who of the two you play as), and Argolis two such nearby city-states (It requires owning Argos, Epidauros and Troizen). While the AI forms hugboxes until they get conquered by AI Macedon or the player’s nation, a player can do this in a few years, which we consider unrealistically fast and not challenging enough.
Problem: There are only two predominant cultures on the Peloponnese peninsula: Achaean and Peloponnese. most pops in Korinthos are Macedonian and a few Jewish Hebrew can be found.
Not really problems (at least not for us) but things we think should be done to improve the region:
The map shows the borders of proposed new territories in red and new and moved port locations as blue dots.
Feel free to add your own ideas to further improve the Peloponnese and the countires starting there!
We liked the rework of some areas for 1.3 a lot because it notably improved strategic and tactical possibilities when playing in these areas. We hope Paradox will continue to rework other areas as well. We have played Imperator:Rome over the holidays, mainly as small Greek states, single player and multiplayer, and we figured out that the Peloponnese needs such a rework more than any other area. Here we have listed what we think should be done as improvements.
Problem: The current layout of the southern Peloponnese unduly favours Spartan expansion. Sparta borders Messenian Leuktron directly, therefore, if a war breaks out between Sparta and Messenia in the first years, before Messenia has finished building there a fortress, the Spartan army quickly marches to Messene, defeats the Messenians and while they’re besieging the fortress there, the zone of control of Sparta’s fortress occupies Leuktron. Messenia, which usually has only Lepryon as an ally, normally can’t defeat the Spartans by this point and gets annexed as soon as the fortress of Messene falls.
This makes Messenia much weaker than they were historically.
Change the layout of the Leuktron, Sparta and Kytheion tiles and the nearby impassable terrain (Taygetos mountains) so that the city of Sparta doesn’t have a direct border with Leuctron anymore and the Spartan army will have to march through Kytheion on their way to Messene. Give Messene a Fortress of Epaminondas city modifier buffing local fort defense. (Megalopolis and Mantinea should have this modifier as well)
Problem: Wars between Sparta and Mantinea’s defensive league are too bogged down, because unless one side gets access from Argos Lepryon or allies with one them, the armies can move only between Sparta and Megalopolis. Such wars sorely lack a manoeuvre component:
If Sparta wins, they annex Megalopolis and make peace with the rest, (Megalopolis then becomes a shield safely protecting Sparta from the north); in any later war the Arcadians will have to besiege Megalopolis before they can attack Sparta itself or take a route along the coasts, potentially requesting access from third parties.
If the Arcadian defense league wins, then Megalopolis taking Spartan and nearby territories (which usually means either an elimination of Sparta from the game unless they manage to get a foothold elsewhere or Sparta reduced to the former Messenian area).
These outcomes get repetitive and thus boring.
Add a new “Settlement” tile between Mantinea, Sparta, Megalopolis and the impassable terrain to the east of them (Parnon mountains) – Tegea.
- It should consist primarily of the western part of the uninhabitable terrain. Neighboring territories: Mantinea, Megalopolis, Sparta and the rump “Parnon” impassable terrain.
- It should have mountains terrain and produce horses (Arcadian hoses were renown in the ancient world, but currently none of the five territories in Arcadia produces horses. Giving them natural access to cavalry from should also somewhat offset the lack of the Fortress of Epaminondas modifier)
- It should be a city-state, part of Matinea’s defensive league.
Adding Tegea on the map, will have several benefits, it will:
- give Sparta a strategic choice what to conquer in the Arcadia: The bigger, but better defended Megalopolis, the rural Tegea that would give them access to cavalry, or both at once (which would require a bigger army to siege two fortresses at the same time).
- give the Arcadian armies an possibility to outmanoeuvre a Spartan stack besieging one of their cities.
- allow a Tegean conquest of Sparta as an alternative to the Megalopolian one that happens whenever Sparta starts and loses a war against the Arcadians. Tegea and Megalopolis will have to compete with each other for the “Spartan prize”.
- In case that Sparta conquers only Tegea or only Megalopolis , the Arcadian city-states will still have a possibility to besiege Sparta directly in a subsequent war, bypassing the conquered territory through the other one.
- make the Arcadian defensive league slightly stronger, it becomes usesful if Macedon decides to conquer Stymphalos and brings their doomstack army.
- add one more nearby tile to get immigrants for Megalopolis.
- allow roleplayers to play as an ancient local rival of Sparta.
- It should consist primarily of the western part of the uninhabitable terrain. Neighboring territories: Mantinea, Megalopolis, Sparta and the rump “Parnon” impassable terrain.
- It should have mountains terrain and produce horses (Arcadian hoses were renown in the ancient world, but currently none of the five territories in Arcadia produces horses. Giving them natural access to cavalry from should also somewhat offset the lack of the Fortress of Epaminondas modifier)
- It should be a city-state, part of Matinea’s defensive league.
Adding Tegea on the map, will have several benefits, it will:
- give Sparta a strategic choice what to conquer in the Arcadia: The bigger, but better defended Megalopolis, the rural Tegea that would give them access to cavalry, or both at once (which would require a bigger army to siege two fortresses at the same time).
- give the Arcadian armies an possibility to outmanoeuvre a Spartan stack besieging one of their cities.
- allow a Tegean conquest of Sparta as an alternative to the Megalopolian one that happens whenever Sparta starts and loses a war against the Arcadians. Tegea and Megalopolis will have to compete with each other for the “Spartan prize”.
- In case that Sparta conquers only Tegea or only Megalopolis , the Arcadian city-states will still have a possibility to besiege Sparta directly in a subsequent war, bypassing the conquered territory through the other one.
- make the Arcadian defensive league slightly stronger, it becomes usesful if Macedon decides to conquer Stymphalos and brings their doomstack army.
- add one more nearby tile to get immigrants for Megalopolis.
- allow roleplayers to play as an ancient local rival of Sparta.
Problem: Sparta produces olives, which gives them increased slave happiness. This doesn’t feel right because the Spartans treated the helots awfully.
Change Sparta’s trade good to stone. There were several large quarries in ancient Sparta, and giving them increased fort defense will be justified if their neighbours get a similar boost as we propose above.
Problem: Spartan government feels too generic.
Many have already demanded a full dual rulers mechanic for Stratocratic monarchies and the Eurypontids as the co-dynasty to the Agiads, we support this. In addition,
- the Krypteia should be implemented, either as a decision with a 1-year cooldown or a repeatable event. Either way, it should involve killing 1 random slave pop for an slight increase of army experience (the young men learned how to kill) and stability (the most unruly of the helots are killed off). If made an event, the choice not to do the krypteia should lower stability and citizen happiness a little bit.
- Sparta should have a reinvigorate the Agoge decision. Historically, this was done in 220 BC and again in 146 BC. It should significantly increase army morale and experience gain but lower manpower increase and pop growth somewhat. When they reach 21, all spartan characters except primary heirs should have get either a completed the agoge trait or temporary modifier (+3 martial, -1 finesse, reduced chance of childbirth-related deaths), or if they have low martial, a failed the agoge trait (no stats change, but lowered prominence and popularity, can’t hold office).
- Some years after the reinvigorate the Agoge decision has been implemented, an “abolish the agoge” (as happened in 188 BC). It will remove all the positive and negative effects of the previous decision
- If the Agoge is implemented, any nation with very good relations with Sparta should have the possibility to send a child to Sparta to participate in the Agoge. It should be either a character interaction or a random event. The character should return at the age of 21, after getting one of the modifiers.
- If Sparta manages to conquer the whole Peloponnese, they should be able to release most of the area except the traditional Spartan areas of Laconia and Messenia and recreate the Peloponnesian League (a special event-spawned nation, similar to how Carthage can treat Sicily after conquering it).
- the Krypteia should be implemented, either as a decision with a 1-year cooldown or a repeatable event. Either way, it should involve killing 1 random slave pop for an slight increase of army experience (the young men learned how to kill) and stability (the most unruly of the helots are killed off). If made an event, the choice not to do the krypteia should lower stability and citizen happiness a little bit.
- Sparta should have a reinvigorate the Agoge decision. Historically, this was done in 220 BC and again in 146 BC. It should significantly increase army morale and experience gain but lower manpower increase and pop growth somewhat. When they reach 21, all spartan characters except primary heirs should have get either a completed the agoge trait or temporary modifier (+3 martial, -1 finesse, reduced chance of childbirth-related deaths), or if they have low martial, a failed the agoge trait (no stats change, but lowered prominence and popularity, can’t hold office).
- Some years after the reinvigorate the Agoge decision has been implemented, an “abolish the agoge” (as happened in 188 BC). It will remove all the positive and negative effects of the previous decision
- If the Agoge is implemented, any nation with very good relations with Sparta should have the possibility to send a child to Sparta to participate in the Agoge. It should be either a character interaction or a random event. The character should return at the age of 21, after getting one of the modifiers.
- If Sparta manages to conquer the whole Peloponnese, they should be able to release most of the area except the traditional Spartan areas of Laconia and Messenia and recreate the Peloponnesian League (a special event-spawned nation, similar to how Carthage can treat Sicily after conquering it).
Problem: Korinthos has a unique heritage and some unusual omens if it’s your national capital, but this nice flavor is wasted because it starts as part of Macedon and can only be made independent via generic mission, and is not playable unless one does the tag-switch via console command. People complained a lot about lack of flavour in I:R, don’t hide what have!
Make Korinthos start as a feudatory of Macedon instead. You may even go a step further and give them a unique tier 3 formable: League of Corinth (Similar to the Hellenic League and Athen’s Delian League, requires controlling key locations in Greece including Korinthos itself, Olympia, Thebai, Athenai, Ambarakia and Pella. Unlike the Hellenic League, doesn’t require to be a republic, but instead one must be Korinthos or have the capital in Korinthos.
Problem: Forming Achaea and Argolis is laughably easy compared to other tier 1 formables. Achaea requires conquering only one city-state level neighbour (Patrai or Aigion, depending on who of the two you play as), and Argolis two such nearby city-states (It requires owning Argos, Epidauros and Troizen). While the AI forms hugboxes until they get conquered by AI Macedon or the player’s nation, a player can do this in a few years, which we consider unrealistically fast and not challenging enough.
add three new city-states to the map and include them into the respective decisions, making them more challenging but also somewhat more rewarding due to the new trade goods:
- Dyme: split off the western part of Patrai. Should be a Settlement, produce Iron. Should be Necessary to create Achaea because the Achaean league was revived by Dyme and Patrai in 280 BC. Should start as a city-state with available decision to form Achaea.
- Sikyon: Located in what now is the easternmost part of Aigion and westernmost bit of Korinthos. Should produce olives, have a harbor and be necessary to form Achaea (as the Achaean League became more than just a local self-defense league only when Sikyon joined it in 251 BC). At the start date Sikyon was controlled by a Ptolemaic military commander named Philipp, we think it should be best represented as a feudatory of Egypt like Kos and Andros and have access to the form Achaea decision, or alternatively a part of Egypt itself like Macedonian Korinthos and Phrygian Chalcis. If a feudatory, Philipp (a Macedonian man with good martial skill) should be Sikyon’s the starting ruler, if you make it part of Egypt, he should be set as governor of Egyptian Hellas region. If Sikyon ends up in Phrygia or any monarchy ruled by Antigonids they should be able to found a city named Demetrias there (as happened in reality in 303 BC).
- Hermione (or Hermionias): from what is currently the western parts of Epidauros and Troizen. Fourth territory neccesary to form Argolis, should start as a city state and have the Form Argolis decision available. Should be a settlement, produce dyes. The Greeks believed that the road down to Hades begins there, perhaps this warrants a unique modifier giving some taxation-related benefit.
- Dyme: split off the western part of Patrai. Should be a Settlement, produce Iron. Should be Necessary to create Achaea because the Achaean league was revived by Dyme and Patrai in 280 BC. Should start as a city-state with available decision to form Achaea.
- Sikyon: Located in what now is the easternmost part of Aigion and westernmost bit of Korinthos. Should produce olives, have a harbor and be necessary to form Achaea (as the Achaean League became more than just a local self-defense league only when Sikyon joined it in 251 BC). At the start date Sikyon was controlled by a Ptolemaic military commander named Philipp, we think it should be best represented as a feudatory of Egypt like Kos and Andros and have access to the form Achaea decision, or alternatively a part of Egypt itself like Macedonian Korinthos and Phrygian Chalcis. If a feudatory, Philipp (a Macedonian man with good martial skill) should be Sikyon’s the starting ruler, if you make it part of Egypt, he should be set as governor of Egyptian Hellas region. If Sikyon ends up in Phrygia or any monarchy ruled by Antigonids they should be able to found a city named Demetrias there (as happened in reality in 303 BC).
- Hermione (or Hermionias): from what is currently the western parts of Epidauros and Troizen. Fourth territory neccesary to form Argolis, should start as a city state and have the Form Argolis decision available. Should be a settlement, produce dyes. The Greeks believed that the road down to Hades begins there, perhaps this warrants a unique modifier giving some taxation-related benefit.
Problem: There are only two predominant cultures on the Peloponnese peninsula: Achaean and Peloponnese. most pops in Korinthos are Macedonian and a few Jewish Hebrew can be found.
We think there should be more diverse, and more or less correspond to the traditional subdivision of the Peloponnese. Paradox, please add these 5 new cultures (all in the Hellenistic culture group):
- Eleans in Elis
- Arcadians in the Arcadian city-states
- Korinthians in Korinthos and Sikyon
- Spartans or Laconians: the state culture, citizen, freemen and tribesmen pops in Sparta. The slave pops (Helots) should remain Peloponnese, like all pops in Messenia.
- Argolians in the territories necessary to form Argolis
A few Cretan, Aetolian, Athenian and Canaanite Phoenician pops should be at the start in port cities to represent recent immigrants and merchant communities (not more than 1 pop per settlement or 2 in a city) The number of Macedoians in Korinthos should be reduced a bit, this was mainly a military garrison, not a settler colony.
- Eleans in Elis
- Arcadians in the Arcadian city-states
- Korinthians in Korinthos and Sikyon
- Spartans or Laconians: the state culture, citizen, freemen and tribesmen pops in Sparta. The slave pops (Helots) should remain Peloponnese, like all pops in Messenia.
- Argolians in the territories necessary to form Argolis
A few Cretan, Aetolian, Athenian and Canaanite Phoenician pops should be at the start in port cities to represent recent immigrants and merchant communities (not more than 1 pop per settlement or 2 in a city) The number of Macedoians in Korinthos should be reduced a bit, this was mainly a military garrison, not a settler colony.
Not really problems (at least not for us) but things we think should be done to improve the region:
- Add Orchomenos as a territory (settlement, produces livestock) and playable tag (city-state, NOT part of Mantinea’s defensive league. Having them would change the dynamics of the Arcadian defense league a bit, by throwing in a faction with less predermined allegiance. Historically, Orchomenos and Mantinea were rivals, in 303 BC (one year after game starts) it was captured by Demetrios I and later in the 3rd century BC it was a Macedonian outpost surrounded by Achaean land. Being initially unaligned, Orchomenos should have several options: join the fellow Arcadians in their league; join their enemies and become a thorn in their side, possibly annexing Mantinea and Azania in a war; or use their location – surrounded by a defensive league without being a member – to play tall and later perhaps strike at the league when they’re fighting elsewhere.
- Add Ports to these cities: Elis (had ships historically); Mothon (good natural harbors, including mothon itself and Pylos aka Navarino); Cytheion (was described as the naval station of Sparta by Strabo) and Kythera. Kythera should also have a pirate heaven (the smaller island of Anakythera that is part of the territory was a base of Cilician pirates in the second century BC). The port of Epidauros Limera should be moved to the eastern side and connect to the Mare Myrtoum instead of the current location on the western side and connected to the Sinus Laconicus.
- make Peloponnese a tier 2 formable for any country with one of the seven native cultures, capital on the Peloponnese and controlling the whole pennninsula.
Logical consequence of implementing our proposals: since we are proposing up to 5 new territories in what is now the Achaea province, it would be necessary to reshuffle the provinces a bit to balance their size. we think the Achaea province should give the Argolian territories (including the Hermionias settlement we propose) and Korinthos to the Laconia province and get Elis and Lepryon instead. The provinces should change their names to Northern Peloponnese and Southern Peloponnese, because they are – both now and if this proposal is implemented – much larger than the regions after which they are currently named: Achaea currently also includes Argolis, Arcadia and Korinthia and Laconia incudes Messenia and Elis, which are historically and today considered separate areas.
We also think that the three outlaying islands should be moved to neighbouring provinces who have less territories than the two Peloponnesian provinces will have if our suggestions are implemented
- Aegina to Hellas as it is halfway between the Peloponnese and Attica. It would bring both Phrygian territories in Hellas into the same province reducing the need to spend influence to change policy a little bit.
- Kythera to Crete. The Cretans historically influenced it a lot, and after the Spartan took it, it was governed by a special official, the kytherodíkes. This would justify having two different provincial policies in Sparta for the “Mainland” and Kythera, and also provide Crete with another (and better visible) connection to another province when you move slaves.
- Zakynthos to Aetolia. At the start of the game it is part of the Aetolian league, why should it have the same policy in the Mainland and Kephalonia, but possibly a separate in Zakynthos? The Aetolia province is currently a bit small with only 10 territories, Zakynthos would become the 11th, bringing it up to the usual number.
- Add Ports to these cities: Elis (had ships historically); Mothon (good natural harbors, including mothon itself and Pylos aka Navarino); Cytheion (was described as the naval station of Sparta by Strabo) and Kythera. Kythera should also have a pirate heaven (the smaller island of Anakythera that is part of the territory was a base of Cilician pirates in the second century BC). The port of Epidauros Limera should be moved to the eastern side and connect to the Mare Myrtoum instead of the current location on the western side and connected to the Sinus Laconicus.
- make Peloponnese a tier 2 formable for any country with one of the seven native cultures, capital on the Peloponnese and controlling the whole pennninsula.
Logical consequence of implementing our proposals: since we are proposing up to 5 new territories in what is now the Achaea province, it would be necessary to reshuffle the provinces a bit to balance their size. we think the Achaea province should give the Argolian territories (including the Hermionias settlement we propose) and Korinthos to the Laconia province and get Elis and Lepryon instead. The provinces should change their names to Northern Peloponnese and Southern Peloponnese, because they are – both now and if this proposal is implemented – much larger than the regions after which they are currently named: Achaea currently also includes Argolis, Arcadia and Korinthia and Laconia incudes Messenia and Elis, which are historically and today considered separate areas.
We also think that the three outlaying islands should be moved to neighbouring provinces who have less territories than the two Peloponnesian provinces will have if our suggestions are implemented
- Aegina to Hellas as it is halfway between the Peloponnese and Attica. It would bring both Phrygian territories in Hellas into the same province reducing the need to spend influence to change policy a little bit.
- Kythera to Crete. The Cretans historically influenced it a lot, and after the Spartan took it, it was governed by a special official, the kytherodíkes. This would justify having two different provincial policies in Sparta for the “Mainland” and Kythera, and also provide Crete with another (and better visible) connection to another province when you move slaves.
- Zakynthos to Aetolia. At the start of the game it is part of the Aetolian league, why should it have the same policy in the Mainland and Kephalonia, but possibly a separate in Zakynthos? The Aetolia province is currently a bit small with only 10 territories, Zakynthos would become the 11th, bringing it up to the usual number.
The map shows the borders of proposed new territories in red and new and moved port locations as blue dots.
Feel free to add your own ideas to further improve the Peloponnese and the countires starting there!
Attachments
Last edited:
- 1
- 1
Upvote
0
