Spartan Dual Monarchy Solution

[Axis89]

With your shield, or on it! - Spartan women

Hello Spartans!

Here is my solution to the Spartan Diarchy(See image below), double monarchs, and how it could function.
My idea, Paradox I hope you read the threads sometimes, is to have a Spartan kingdom in political peril at game start. Historically Sparta was past it's prime, and was rapidly declining, even with several Kings who tried to turn things around(And I will come back to this later, ehem Cleomenes cough cough*).

Two Kings and the Ephors:
Since it's conception by Lycurgus the Lawgiver, the Spartan unique government has risen, had it's golden age, and is now long into it's structural decline. The two King's have lost a lot of power to the Ephors, and no longer do anything, even declare war, without their approval. Basically the Kings feel reduced to mere Generals, with a nice title and past.

Today the Ephors control the government, they are the council of five, elected in office like republican Consuls, and can't hold the title again for another 10 years. The Ephors, good, bad, greedy or modest, will have a certain support score which determines if they vote to pass your action's, like declaring war etc, or not.
The score is tied to legitimacy, which increase support to some degree, but as you can see on the image, it might not be enough with the blood of Leonidas to sway an Ephor, so extra strong measures are needed..
Spartan government has lost it's balance, and the Ephors take advantage, so bribing is essential unfortunately to get things done sometimes, but bribing works a little differently in Sparta.

Bribe the Ephors, grant their wishes:
The Ephor's share power among themselves, but what they do not have, yet, is the treasury, lands and your support in some specific cases, so you two, the Kings could help grant their wishes on a personal level, but in return they have to, let's say, support you more!
Each Ephor may or may not have have a personal wish, most often they do, and it could be a nice holding along the coast of Gytheion, build a granary in Sparta or conquer a province(Because they see some nice prospects there). Granting their wish will increase their support a lot, but the gratitude does not last forever.. Gradually they will forget.

Legitimacy, how it works:
But hey, you didn't say much about how legitimacy should work!
Well, fear not, I have thought about that as well.
In Spartan society the military was at the core of who they are, and how they rule. Spartan's expect their King's to command their armies and defend their state, like all Spartan's should.
Therefore legitimacy is tied to all the normal factor's to some degree, but most importantly the generalship of armies. A Spartan King in command of an army will increase his legitimacy, and boost it even further winning battles and wars, this will make the Ephors a tad bit more supportive. They can't ignore you now can they?
Well, they still can, it might not be enough in these corrupt times, but it helps a lot, but other dangers loom too.
Watch out for non-king general's getting famous, if a non-king general wins more battles, and have a higher prominence and popularity than your two king's they will suffer legitimacy loss, so letting your King's take the risk in battle, even if they are idiot's is essential. After all they hail from Herakles!
The King's share an avarage legitimacy, so if one King is a military genius he could pull that avarage up, if the other is a complete military disaster.

Also, you can click the thumbs up to buy legitimacy like in normal Kingdoms, but since there are two King's the political influence cost is double of that a normal single King would have to pay.

Cleomenes Reform Decision:
Wow, so Sparta will struggle with the Ephors, well if I was King I would want to reform it, you might say, and so did Cleomenes.
Cleomenes managed to reform Sparta, a little too late, killing all the Ephors but one(One escaped), taking complete control again with his Co-King. Cleomenes wanted Sparta to return to it's glory, like Lycurgus intended he might say, and reintroduced the Agoge and other military society reforms, fostering Spartan warriors like the old days. Also, the Spartan's were quite conservative, and Cleomenes introduced the Macedonian army model for the first time in Sparta, trying to play catch up on military development's.

Yeah yeah, so what does the reform do!?

Well, firstly, it removes all five Ephor's leaving them vacant.
No longer do you have to bribe anyone to do what you want, you, and your Co-King are absolute authorities now!
Now the Ephor positions(5 seats) are replaced with the five most powerful governors, which is not a King.
So initially you will enjoy a lot of freedom, but the reforms were meant for Greek Hegemony, the reformer never saw a Spartan Empire coming!
So growth will create late game problems for Sparta, if building a wide Empire, filling all the five slot's again, and the same old problems arise, you will again need support, and bribe them like the Ephor's of old.
Essentially building tall and staying in the Pelopponese wont create new governor's, so Sparta will remain under the King's control.

Are there other bonuses?
Yes, the reform's of the Agoge gives a Heavy Infantry Discipline +5.00%

The reform's of Cleomenes also had land redistributed equally among all citizen's, but giving more bonuses to Sparta seem's unfair, it should always be a Helot problem, and they aren't the most economically inventive of people.

Requirement's for reforming:
Minimum 40 Stability
Minimum 60 Civilization level
Owns all of Laconia and Achea

That's all, thank you!

Kind Regards
Axis89

 

[Gurkhal]

Excellent stuff.

Personally I would place more focus on land ownership and the introduction of new people into the citizen body as population decline was always a problem in Sparta's Spartiate ranka.

 

[Axis89]

Excellent stuff.

Personally I would place more focus on land ownership and the introduction of new people into the citizen body as population decline was always a problem in Sparta's Spartiate ranka.

Thank you Glad you like my idea!

Your concern could easily be included in the Cleomenes Reform, if most people want the land redistribution to be included.
It was quite a unique event for it's time. Example: All holdings either removed, or redistributed fairly among all citizen(Characters) and some + bonus, like food productivity.
But I dont want to make the idea overpowered either.

 

[Lyconides]

This is a really good solution for a more unique early-game Sparta and it is historical. However, the Ephors were mainly corrupt individuals who held around the same powers as the King. After the reform where I killed them or abolished the system, why would the Ephors continue to exist afterwards in the form of governors? At that point, you might as well just get rid of the Ephors completely.

 

[Axis89]

This is a really good solution for a more unique early-game Sparta and it is historical. However, the Ephors were mainly corrupt individuals who held around the same powers as the King. After the reform where I killed them or abolished the system, why would the Ephors continue to exist afterwards in the form of governors? At that point, you might as well just get rid of the Ephors completely.

Well without the the Governors, taking a Ephor role, the late game of Sparta will quickly become a breeze, expanding without any worry(Steamrolling).
Also, my thought is that it would become boring to not have any mechanic to play with, and Sparta never became a wide Empire, but more a tall nation, being hegemon of Greece.
If you don't want the Governor's mechanic you have to build tall, and stay in Greece, being the defender of Hellenism, this makes Sparta a very strong tall nation.

The Governor's(A.k.a New Ephor's) represent growing pains for Sparta, where old habits return(Cleomenes reform's was never meant for a large Empire), but instead of elected officials, they are now powerful Governors appointed by the King's.
Now the King's will worry about keeping the large Spartan Empire united, if going far and wide.
Spartan governor's will remember the Ephor's of old, why they were removed, and knows how to take advantage their King's for personal benefits.
Call it corruption, they call it inspiration.
They wield more might and power than the Ephor's ever did, so the Spartan King's can't simply kill them without a fight.

So the reform removed the Ephor's, but the Governors, which you probably want to assign, will become a little corrupt themselves having power, repeating a Spartan problem in their society. But you could just not appoint governor's too.

That is my train of thought, to keep it interesting, and with multiple path's.

Thank you for taking interest.

 

[The Founder]

Here is my solution to the Spartan Diarchy(See image below), double monarchs, and how it could function.

Calling it a Diarchy is kinda a overstatment, as they were not realy corulers. They were cokings, but in sparta being a king was not like what we consider a monarch.

By the primary source we have - wich is the Athenean Xenophon - the Kings held barely any power in Sparta. During war they did wield dictatorial power and were the only allowed official Generals. But once done, they were legally responsible for everything they did. Their biggest peacetime role might have been in religion.
I mean heck, you could sue the Kings out of office, to be repalced by the next one in line. That is not a ruler. They are more like a Consul with added religious duties and bloodline requirements.

The real power in the state was the Gerousia. Basically Spartas senate of old men, financed by rich women.
- They had 3 different ways to block every law
- and when the king was beign sued, they were like 90% of the Judges and Jury.
So basic Roman dual-consulship, except with job for life (or until trial).

 

[Axis89]

Calling it a Diarchy is kinda a overstatment, as they were not realy corulers. They were cokings, but in sparta being a king was not like what we consider a monarch.

By the primary source we have - wich is the Athenean Xenophon - the Kings held barely any power in Sparta. During war they did wield dictatorial power and were the only allowed official Generals. But once done, they were legally responsible for everything they did. Their biggest peacetime role might have been in religion.
I mean heck, you could sue the Kings out of office, to be repalced by the next one in line. That is not a ruler. They are more like a Consul with added religious duties and bloodline requirements.

The real power in the state was the Gerousia. Basically Spartas senate of old men, financed by rich women.
- They had 3 different ways to block every law
- and when the king was beign sued, they were like 90% of the Judges and Jury.
So basic Roman dual-consulship, except with job for life (or until trial).

Hello, and thank you for joining in!

Yes, diarchy could be an overstatement, but the reason I used that word was because there is two kings. However, they are under, as you mention, a more democratic rule having a Gerousia(Senate) and later Ephor's taking more and more control of the state and therefore reducing the King's influence and actual power's.
So a more precise name would be a Constitutional Diarchy maybe? (Their Government is unique, hard to set a name for it in stone)

However, the reason I do not include the Gerousia, and have focused in on the Ephor's is due to two reasons.
Firstly, I wanted to simplify game mechanics, so it is easy to learn, harder to master, therefore I had to make some sacrifices in order to make fun and different game play.
All nations could have unique and complicated governments, but how well the A.I operates within it, or easy it is to jump in as a player is a priority.
Having the Ephor's only, representing the Gerousia(As they historically did, and increasingly took more control), makes it easy for a player to keep an oversight at all times at a glance.
Five important characters makes better stories in-game I believe than a whole Gerousia of councillors. Characters will easily drown in the masses, and the bribe mechanic loses it's effect.

Secondly, the Ephor's at the time of Imperator: Rome has seized more power than was originally thought, and increasingly became a corrupt assembly.
I wanted to simulate that, the Spartan Decline, and the game mechanics create some nice dynamics and makes specific characters pop out more, making them more personal.
So the King's hold almost no power, except leading armies and owning land, but will want to reform the state, as the old system is faltering.

Cleomenes reform is therefore a decision to take control and make the Spartan state an actual Diarchy(See what I did there? ), removing the Ephor's.
In history Cleomenes did so, and made the two King's de facto rulers in the end, in a move to combat corruption and restoring justice and old Spartan customs & laws such as the Agoge.

So that is why I call it the Spartan Diarchy.

Anyway, loved your interest and contribution!
If you however want a different solution then I hope you make one and link me that post, I would like to check it out

Kind regards
Axis89

 

[Ketchup & friends]

A excellent and very detailed proposal. This would give Sparta some features similar to republics.

We would like to change one thing in your proposal. We think governors as the replacement for the Ephors after the Cleomenes Reforms is not good.
- It is not unlikely that Sparta will own land in just one or two regions besides Greece, or just tiny bits in multiple regions that would give their governors too much influence.
- Governors can be replaced at will, it would be easy to get rid of an uncomfortable governor.

We think the 5 most powerful generals and admirals should replace the ephors instead.
- This would fit the military administration takes over theme better.
- a wide Sparta would need more than two armies and the generals, as direct subordinates to the kings, having some influence would reflect this.
- the assignment cooldown would make replacing uncomfortable Generals with someone else less frequent. Th
- this could create some conflict between the aims of the Generals who want to win battles themselves and the Kings who are supposed be the primary generals.
- Finally, if a governor is assigned a provincial army, they could still sit on the council, so if the five most powerful generals happen to be governors controlling provincial armies, they would still be in the new royal council.

Regarding the Kings being tried by the Gerousia, thaty could be a rare event that triggers if a king or co-king has high corruption or has done some criminal scheme.

slightly off-topic, but what do you think about our proposals for Sparta, especially reagrding the Agoge, and the discussion on Sparta's fortifications in the comments?

 

[Axis89]

A excellent and very detailed proposal. This would give Sparta some features similar to republics.

We would like to change one thing in your proposal. We think governors as the replacement for the Ephors after the Cleomenes Reforms is not good.
- It is not unlikely that Sparta will own land in just one or two regions besides Greece, or just tiny bits in multiple regions that would give their governors too much influence.
- Governors can be replaced at will, it would be easy to get rid of an uncomfortable governor.

We think the 5 most powerful generals and admirals should replace the ephors instead.
- This would fit the military administration takes over theme better.
- a wide Sparta would need more than two armies and the generals, as direct subordinates to the kings, having some influence would reflect this.
- the assignment cooldown would make replacing uncomfortable Generals with someone else less frequent. Th
- this could create some conflict between the aims of the Generals who want to win battles themselves and the Kings who are supposed be the primary generals.
- Finally, if a governor is assigned a provincial army, they could still sit on the council, so if the five most powerful generals happen to be governors controlling provincial armies, they would still be in the new royal council.

Regarding the Kings being tried by the Gerousia, thaty could be a rare event that triggers if a king or co-king has high corruption or has done some criminal scheme.

slightly off-topic, but what do you think about our proposals for Sparta, especially reagrding the Agoge, and the discussion on Sparta's fortifications in the comments?

First off, who is we?

Secondly, thumbs up! Basically you(Plural) did exactly what I hoped for, you pointed out something I missed or haven't thought about, polishing the idea. Still same structure, but I have to say I like the idea of powerful general's and admiral's even better.
As you(plural) say, it fits Sparta better, as the original two King's who traditionally commanded armies need more armies than ever before, the rise of challengers might arise.
This simulates Sparta's militaristic system better, as it is a double edged sword. They can make some damn good armies, but those armies, their leaders could turn against you for personal gain.

So the new "Ephors" are now, after reform of Cleomenes, the five most powerful General's, and you have to bribe them instead, to get what you want... or to avoid them turning against you.

I salute you fellow Spartans(Still plural)! Great contribution!

Edit: Funny thing is that the Ephor's before enacting Cleomenes Reform, can't control armies(Which is written in the JPG, but I havent mentioned. So with your(plural) idea using generals after the Cleomenes reform changes dynamics even more, making Sparta exciting early game, and before it get's dull, it goes into high gear and goes all in.
Ok it is really late, I'll stop writing now. This is awesome, thank you, high five.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

First off, who is we?

"We" are the people gathering ideas for these posts. Ketchup is our group's "scribe". (That's the short definition we agreed on)

I (Ketchup) am the one who (usually but not always) compiles the ideas into a presentable text and posts them here, but most of the content is not from me, it is the result of my gruop's brainstorming.

 

[Axis89]

You are gathering different peoples ideas to your thread?
Are you giving due credit to original creators of the idea?

Lot's of interesting things in that thread, it is a little convoluted to read. Or it i is just me, who finds it hard.
Anyway, I am a big supporter of more flavour and more mechanics, unique to each famous nation etc.
The idea I have here is completely my own, but I do agree, making General's the new Ephor's was a great contribution.
Makes the government reform into a truly Stratocratic Diarchy.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

You are gathering different peoples ideas to your thread?
Are you giving due credit to original creators of the idea?

Dear @Trin Tragula, thank you for appreciating our ideas. They result from a group effort, we brainstorm for ideas and post solutions we agree on among ourselves (or at least have no internal disagreements).
If you like our suggestions, please always read the comments other people wrote in our suggestion threads as well. They have added some new ideas we didn't think about and corrected things that we got wrong.

 

[Axis89]

Your answers are very.. indirect

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Your answers are very.. indirect

That's because similar questions were asked and already answered elsewhere.

 

[Axis89]

That's because similar questions were asked and already answered elsewhere.

I got that, but how should I know, I haven't been through all your threads just not the norm I guess, that's why I point it out.

But anyways, who is the group, how did you get together and start this thing? Gone on for long?

 

[Ketchup & friends]

I got that, but how should I know, I haven't been through all your threads just not the norm I guess, that's why I point it out.

But anyways, who is the group, how did you get together and start this thing? Gone on for long?

We won't tell you much, the reason we have made this account is we don't want to post from the main ones. But we know each other IRL and have been playing games together (not only Paradox) and discussing them for some years. We decided to create this account after reading this:

As a side note the “fall of Phrygia” cycle is something I’d love to revisit in the future, though sadly the problem with the Attalids and Pergamon is not only that Pergamon was nothing but one of many cities in Asia Minor in 304 bc but also that the Attalids were nowhere near it (both brothers do exist in the game however and the Pergamon event does grab them if it can).

Will see what we can do with it if we revisit it at some point in the future. If you have ideas for how to solve it practically we would be sure to notice such a post in the suggestions forum.

 

[Axis89]

We won't tell you much, the reason we have made this account is we don't want to post from the main ones. But we know each other IRL and have been playing games together (not only Paradox) and discussing them for some years. We decided to create this account after reading this:

Cool, well keep up the good work! I'll probably make more suggestions in the future, not only for Sparta.

Until then, I hope to see you guys with your shields, or on them!

 

[Axis89]

Still hoping for this...

 

[Basileus2]

hot damn this is buff! great job OP! @Arheo, @TrinTriagula, take notice!

 

[Ketchup & friends]

It's sad that it wasn't done in 1.4 together with the unique missions for Sparta.