Sparta should not have walls generally

[Riekopo]

The city of Sparta was famous for not having walls. They relied solely on their soldiers to protect the city. When Pyrrhus of Epirus sieged Sparta they dug trenches in front of the city and sunk wagons into these trenches at the sides to protect the flanks. The Spartan army was in Crete at the time. So I think Sparta should be limited to a level 1 Fort or some other kind of temporary defense structure that can be built quickly there during a war.

They only built walls around 200BC or so when some dictator seized power.

History of Sparta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Siege of Sparta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Trin Tragula]

This has come up multiple times before and each time it’s eventually brought up that despite its reputation Sparta was def fortified in this era

 

[Riekopo]

This has come up multiple times before and each time it’s eventually brought up that despite its reputation Sparta was def fortified in this era

Really? Where are you getting that information from?

 

[Trin Tragula]

Really? Where are you getting that information from?

It's been said better by others before me
For instance:

Imperator - Development Diary - 5th of November 2018

Hello again! :) As previously hinted today's diary will cover both the Greek Military Traditions and the general setup at the start of the game in the larger Greek region. We will return to other parts of the Greek world in future diaries. I will...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Beyond this it should be said that many forts in the greek world in the game would represent acropoles, a central fortification at the top of a central height. Sieges in this era are as much, if not more, focused on such structures than they are on walled cities.
Additionally the territory of Sparta covers more than the city itself, the hinterland most definitely was fortified even further back than the Hellenistic era.

 

[Riekopo]

It's been said better by others before me
For instance:

Imperator - Development Diary - 5th of November 2018

Hello again! :) As previously hinted today's diary will cover both the Greek Military Traditions and the general setup at the start of the game in the larger Greek region. We will return to other parts of the Greek world in future diaries. I will...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Beyond this it should be said that many forts in the greek world in the game would represent acropoles, a central fortification at the top of a central height. Sieges in this era are as much, if not more, focused on such structures than they are on walled cities.
Additionally the territory of Sparta covers more than the city itself, the hinterland most definitely was fortified even further back than the Hellenistic era.

When Epirus attacked Sparta in 272BC it had no walls. That is why it was defended by women and old men in ditches that they had dug. That is a few decades after the game start. The first defensive walls in Sparta were built around 207BC when Nabis seized power. Unless you have actual evidence of Sparta having defensive walls before then?

The historian W.G. Forest is willing to take these accusations at face value including that he murdered his ward, and participated in state sponsored piracy and brigandage - but not the self-interested motives ascribed to him. He sees him as a ruthless version of Cleomenes, sincerely attempting to solve Sparta's social crisis.[124] He initiated the building of Sparta's first walls which extended to some 6 miles.[125] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sparta#Roman_Sparta

Sparta's real walls were it's citizen Hoplites and it's naturally defensive mountain terrain. Easily defended narrow mountain passes. But the game doesn't model combat width or terrain to much of an extent really in combat so.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

While there were some fortifications in the tile representing Sparta, the absence of a city wall in 304 BC was notable.
We have two alternative solutions for this problem. Couldn’t agree which one is better, so I post both.

Solution A. Local Modifier: Spartan walls: reduced fort defence, but increased manpower output from POPs? this would reflect the unique Spartan attitude. And a special decision to fortify Sparta that would remove this modifier (happened historically with building proper walls in 207 BC.)

Solution B. A startup choice (similar to Syracuse, Seleukids and Heraclea Pontica) for Sparta.
The flavour text would tell of the decline over the last decades and give a choice.

• Fortify the city (actually changes nothing, but the text would explain that the walls were constructed just now)
• Stay true to the old ways. (deletes the fort but gives a nation-wide modifier to army morale and discipline)

Slightly off-topic, but the fortifications affect gameplay far less than the single king of Sparta.
@Axis89 proposed an excellent solution to that problem and made a fix mod proving that it works.
Any chance you will implement two kings of Sparta in 1.5 @Trin Tragula ?

 

[Samitte]

Sparta had not formed into a city yet either during this period. Sparta consisted of 4 very close villages (Limnai, Kynoussoura, Messoa, Pitane) and a 5th (Amyklai) about 6 km to the south. The lack of Sparta's walls has more to do with it being quite backwards and traditionalist compared to much of Greece. It was also in a fortunate position that it did not have to build them. It was a polis, but not a real city yet. Some defenses were built surrounding most of the polis in the early 3rd century, with a full wall being built only by 209 BCE. However these did not cover Amyklai which nontheless remained part of the polis, but not the city.

Now beyond the source based fanboy reasoning for Sparta not having a wall, why did they not build walls? The sheer size of surrounding the entire area would have been a very costly and time consuming effort, especially when Sparta could rely on the perioikoi, that is to say the other Lakedaimonian poleis which were subservient to Sparta politically. It meant it could afford to remain old fashioned and not have walls because it had the perioikoi as its forward defense. Once it started to lose its subordinate poleis and helots, Sparta had to defend itself at the expense of having Amyklai excluded from from these defenses. Sparta had been so reduced in size (to that of an average polis) it could not afford this tradition anymore.

I think a better representation could be to carve out the Mountain province of Pellana or Sellasia to the north of Sparta, with a fort there, and to have a fort to the south of it in 430 Gytheion. Perhaps something as @Ketchup & friends proposed above could still be the case, with a big spike in unrest for its Citizens and Nobles if the option to have a fort is taken. This is to represent the likely unrest it would have caused if Amyklai was suddenly cut off from the rest of the polis by a wall which would likely anger the backwards and traditionalist Spartans.

I disagree with giving them yet another morale and discipline boost however. They already have one from their Heritage, and compared to how they historically fared are already really powerful through their missions. The trade off should be having a free wall and a spike in Citizen and Noble unrest vs not having one and keeping the peace. Perhaps something similar can happen if Sparta builds a fort there when it is doing well. After all why change the tradition if Sparta is not weak?

EDIT: Not saying it should not be a city by the way, the way to represent the 4 villages, is by a wall-less city.

Also: If another province is not carved out, then Sparta having a fort is fine, the fort can represent that part of its perioikoi.