EUIV: Mare Nostrum Content Pack Renders

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You guys DO know that North Africans were originally dark right? They were repeatedly described as dark or black skinned. So saying they were never that dark is inaccurate despite what they look like today. It has already been mentioned but the numerous contacts with the Mediterranean, the Arab conquest, the Barbary Slave Trade and numerous other factors are why many North Africans look like they do, not the environment. There are still black North Africans in the southern regions of those countries and they are NOT all the descendents of slaves. North Africa also had gene flow with Sub-Saharan Africa during the Green Sahara period. Whatever the accuracy (or lack thereof) of these models saying North Africans were never that dark is just as inaccurate.

Roman_Africa.jpg

. . . since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.

Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
From Herodotus, Strabo, and Procopius of Caesarea


Edit: like I said, I'm not stating these models are historically accurate or perfect especially for the time period the game covers,but segregating Ancient North Africa into white and Ancient Sub-Saharan Africa(which didn't always exist) into black is ridiculous since all the ancient indigenous populations of Africa were shades of brown. There's also the Green Saharan period which allowed for travel and gene flow throughout the continent so imposing a race line using the Sahara desert which wasn't always there is wrong.
 
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Before the Arab conquest or Barbary slave trade, most of what is now Maghreb was populated by Berbers and people of Phoenician or Roman (for the later period) descent. They may look darker than Europeans but defintely not black.
 
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Before the Arab conquest or Barbary slave trade, most of what is now Maghreb was populated by Berbers and people of Phoenician or Roman (for the later period) descent. They may look darker than Europeans but defintely not black.

Ancient Berbers were "definitely not black"? This despite the fact there are several Berber tribes that are still dark skinned like the Tuaregs and every Berber tribe has at least some Sub-Saharan admixture? Hmm..

Ibn Qutayba (828-89) wrote:

Wahb ibn Nunabbih said: Ham the son of Noah was a white man,
with a handsome face and a fine figure, and Almighty God changed his
color and the color of his descendants in response to his father’s
curse. He went away, followed by his sons, and they settled by the
shore, where God increased and multiplied them. They are the blacks.
…Some of his children went to the West. Ham begat Kush ibn Ham,
Kan`an ibn Ham, and Fut ibn Ham. Fut settled in India and Sind
and their inhabitants are his descendants. Kush and Kan`an’s descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers.
(Kitab al-Ma`arif, ed. Tharwat `Ukasha, 2nd ed., Cairo, 1969, p. 26)


Yet you're still going to sit there and tell me that after all the foreigners that came into the region in the ancient world, the Arab conquest of North Africa, and the Barbary slave trade where millions of whites were sold into slavery into North Africa(at a time when the global population was much smaller) that the population today is exactly the same as the most ancient one? Lol. Also you do know black people have a variety of features not just broad noses, thick lips and huge afros?

What would you call these Moors(which originally applied to black North Africans before it became a general catch all for Muslims from both the Maghreb and Middle East) depicted playing Chess? Cedar colored?

chess-mavry-algir.jpg


Or this Moor from the Barbary Coast (who btw was not a slave) who was painted in the late 1500s?

12295506_10153738522577639_2478961107141194736_n.jpg
 
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But...but where is Granada? :(

You'll find it south of Castile, North of Morocco, surrounded by Gibraltar, Cadiz, Seville, Jean, Cordoba and Almeria. It has the Alhambra, you can't miss it.
 
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Awesome work. I especially love the Ethiopians.
The 18th century Italians are a bit...sentimental, however...
 
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Awesome work. I especially love the Ethiopians.
The 18th century Italians are a bit...sentimental, however...

@Catalack The Ethiopians were an outstanding job. I like how they have amour representing the exchange between Ethiopia and Portugal. If we see a Kongo render pack that same exchange is even more prevalent to the point of culture and Royal family title names.

They tend to have more of a cocoa complexion really awesome culture (Angola)

upload_2016-3-25_11-20-34.png
upload_2016-3-25_11-23-16.png
 
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I also think the Moroccan units are great, and Nubia is quite fetching as well. I agree Ethiopia is also rather good. It's a bit of a mixed bunch, all in all; there's some I'm looking forward to and some I'll steer well clear off. Generally speaking, though I think it has been less good then previous batches of Content Packs, excepting Byzantium's models which are sub-par.
 
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The Ethiopians were an outstanding job. I like how they have amour representing the exchange between Ethiopia and Portugal. If we see a Kongo render pack that same exchange is even more prevalent to the point of culture and Royal family title names.
Armors are cool, I agree, but they look like Malians, not Ethiopians. Their faces are too wide and their skin is too dark.
 
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You guys DO know that North Africans were originally dark right? They were repeatedly described as dark or black skinned. So saying they were never that dark is inaccurate despite what they look like today. It has already been mentioned but the numerous contacts with the Mediterranean, the Arab conquest, the Barbary Slave Trade and numerous other factors are why many North Africans look like they do, not the environment. There are still black North Africans in the southern regions of those countries and they are NOT all the descendents of slaves. North Africa also had gene flow with Sub-Saharan Africa during the Green Sahara period. Whatever the accuracy (or lack thereof) of these models saying North Africans were never that dark is just as inaccurate.



Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE
From Herodotus, Strabo, and Procopius of Caesarea


Edit: like I said, I'm not stating these models are historically accurate or perfect especially for the time period the game covers,but segregating Ancient North Africa into white and Ancient Sub-Saharan Africa(which didn't always exist) into black is ridiculous since all the ancient indigenous populations of Africa were shades of brown. There's also the Green Saharan period which allowed for travel and gene flow throughout the continent so imposing a race line using the Sahara desert which wasn't always there is wrong.
Well I think I know from Experience being a half Berber Half Arab Algerian that we're a little bit dark but not THAT dark like the models, we're more of a darker latinos than complete dark Africans, even the Amazigh who were in the region before the arab conquests wern't that dark
 
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^Like I said Ayoub I'm not saying the models are perfect I'm just saying people shouldn't act like there were never black people in North Africa except as slaves. There is an indigenous black component of North Africa that still exists in certain parts today and after all the events that have happened in North Africa one can't credibly believe the region is the same as in ancient times any more than Mexico now is the same as during the days of Aztec rule (your statement about lookong like slightly darker latinos was quite appropriate)

And I would give you that for Amazigh along the coastlines but even they were described as atleast light brown or tan, not pale white, and there are still really dark Amazigh in the Sahel.

nywls9.jpg
“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.
 
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Well I think I know from Experience being a half Berber Half Arab Algerian that we're a little bit dark but not THAT dark like the models, we're more of a darker latinos than complete dark Africans, even the Amazigh who were in the region before the arab conquests wern't that dark

I completely agree.

I've had Moroccan tell me the Natives are black Africans. So perhaps the colours of the units should have been switched haha.

Even the tales of Carthage (Near Tunis) and Hannibal depict him neither 100% Black nor 100%White.


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On a side note, I do understand what they where trying to do. With a more African complexion southern to the Mediterranean and a more Arabic/Berber to the north of Africa. But then gave them a darker feel for being west from Middle east. So my praise goes out to them for that kind of detail. Of course in reality, there are a huge amounts of different complexions in the continent of Africa itself.
 
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Ancient Berbers were "definitely not black"? This despite the fact there are several Berber tribes that are still dark skinned like the Tuaregs and every Berber tribe has at least some Sub-Saharan admixture? Hmm..

Ibn Qutayba (828-89) wrote:


(Kitab al-Ma`arif, ed. Tharwat `Ukasha, 2nd ed., Cairo, 1969, p. 26)


Yet you're still going to sit there and tell me that after all the foreigners that came into the region in the ancient world, the Arab conquest of North Africa, and the Barbary slave trade where millions of whites were sold into slavery into North Africa(at a time when the global population was much smaller) that the population today is exactly the same as the most ancient one? Lol. Also you do know black people have a variety of features not just broad noses, thick lips and huge afros?

What would you call these Moors(which originally applied to black North Africans before it became a general catch all for Muslims from both the Maghreb and Middle East) depicted playing Chess? Cedar colored?

chess-mavry-algir.jpg


Or this Moor from the Barbary Coast (who btw was not a slave) who was painted in the late 1500s?

12295506_10153738522577639_2478961107141194736_n.jpg

Man.... I wish the Tunisian or Algeirian Units had some uniforms like that last picture... Honestly their biggest problem isn't even the excessive dark skin tone, it's their later uniforms are really lacking... they look more what a Sailor, not a Soldier, would wear.

Also if Paradox wanted to go with black skinned units for the Maghreb they should have gone for the Moroccans as well, since those I know had a very large black skinned berber community along side the more arab looking community... more so than Algiers and Tunisia if I remember correctly...
 
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@Punos_Rey I don't think anyone is saying that the Tunisian/Algerian packs should feature skin as white as snow, they're just that very, very few people in those countries are quite that dark and something closer to the Moroccan pack would have been more suitable. Your pictures of the Kabyles are still noticeably lighter than the Tunisian/Algerian units.
 
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I understand that crab I'm not saying the models are perfect I just don't like how some people are basically wiping out the indigenous black population in North Africa which isn't right, they may not be as numerous as they once were but they aren't completely extinct. I completely understand where other people are coming from though.

Edit@imperial: I don't consider the Carthaginians black (at least not the ruling elite). Hannibal may have been of mixed heritage however but the Carthaginians were at least on the elite level Phoenicians right? From what I've read the Phoenicians may have been dark themselves but they were semites so..*shrugs*

There were definitely local black soldiers in the Carthaginians army though like the black elephant rider on this coin

IOW-Etruscan.Head%20of%20a%20black.1.4mb.jpg.CROP.rtstoryvar-large.Head%20of%20a%20black.1.4mb.jpg

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By EU4's time, the elite nobles in "Algeria" (Tlemcen) and Morocco, and therefore presumably the elite soldiers that form the basis for the models, were of Zenata Berber descent, though - both the Marinids and later Wattasids in Morocco, and the Zayyanids in Tlemcen. Here's an example of a Zenata Berber (in this case, Ibn Battuta):

Har%C3%AEr%C3%AE_Schefer_-_BNF_Ar5847_f.51.jpg


In Tunisia, it was Masmuda Berbers instead in the Hafsids, and they're definitely a fair amount darker... but still not as dark as their models (although bearing in mind Masmuda and Zenata are both confederations of what may once have been disparate ethnic groups, and do have a lot of variance in origin).

Either way, the much bigger problem is that they look like pirates/slaves and not professional soldiers. It's a bit demeaning to those states to suggest they couldn't even attain armour.
 
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Fair enough though even as late as the late 1800s the black element was still sizable in North Africa even in Morocco and Algeria. See this painting from the mid 1850s of a Moroccan Sultan and his entourage

407delac.jpg


Another one by the same artist from 1862
portrait-of-the-sultan-of-morocco-1862(1).jpg


The current king of Morocco
king-mohamed-VI-1s1jcp2B.jpg



I definitely agree with you on the uniforms though :S
 
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