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Martin_Mortyry

A pretentious asshole who thinks he knows history
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Jun 4, 2015
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One thing that is always bothering me about Prussia in Europa Universalis IV is how homogeneous it is. Cultural mapmode implies that Teutonic Order was nothing but successful in its assimilation of local population. The truth is, despite over 200 years under Teutonic rule, not all of Pruthenia got germanised... at least not in 1444. Same goes with Pomerelia, which by the start of EU4 has been under the Order for 135 years. Having that in mind, that's how cultural map of Prussia should look, more or less:
PyHf7S6.png
This setup introduces two new cultures and brings back another one, which for some reason used to be in Courland, and is completely removed from normal campaign as of now. The cultures are:
Kashubian
This West Slavic culture is still alive and well to this day. As you can see on this map the culture spans through all of Pomerelia and part of what is now Polish Western Pomerania(ruled by Pomerania in EU4). It is the only Pomeranian culture that managed to survive the german colonisation(ostsiedlung): as you can see from most of maps showing Ostsiedlung, the area of Pomerelia was hardly colonised, excluding Gdańsk/Danzig. Although area held by in-game Pomerania was undergoing intensive germanisation, it wouldn't be a stretch to include Kashubians in Stolp or even in Kolberg. Danzig on the other hand was being germanised with all the effort of the Teutonic Order and Thuringian settlers, though at this point its colonisation was taking place in city exclusively, as most of surrounding villages were speaking Kashubian or Polish up until XIX century. If and how spread the culture will be is all up to devs.

Pruthenian
Right now this Baltic culture belongs to the lost cultures group which, among others, includes cultures such as Spartan, Athenian and Babylonian... because Old Prussians had so much in common with Ancient Greeks and Iraqis! Yeah, no, this whole group should be trashed if you ask me, if someone plays Anglo-Saxon country, he wants to be accepted by English and Scotts, doesn't he? Anyways, let's get back on topic.
We are not certain when did this culture die out, but we can be sure that it's been doing not-incredibly-bad until second half of XVI century. According to my Book of Wisdom and All the Knowledge of Teutonic Rule over Prussia by the time of the game start, Pruthenians should still live in Sambia, scarcely inhabited area of Masurian lakes(eastern and central parts of Prussia) and probably area around Neman River(except for the Memel castle, of course). In game, Pruthenians would inhabit Ortelsburg, Osterode and Memel. The most controversial choice would be Königsberg - it held Pruthenian population for the longest time of all the provinces but at the same time there are some pretty valid reasons for keeping it Prussian (explained in one of my later posts). I'd also suggest splitting Suvalkai/Suwałki from Trakai - the new province would consist of all the former Trakai land west of Neman River and would host the Old Prussian culture. Troki would become much smaller but it still would not be the smallest province in the region. Podlasie could be split as well but... no, I don't think it's needed - I'm showing the possible split on the map anyway.

To add a bit of flavour to both the new tags(Pruthenia and... Kashubia, I guess?) and countries occupying their lands in 1444, missions could be added to encourage Pomerania to convert Kashubs and Teutonic Order/Prussia to remove Pruthenians, respectively. Similarly, Pruthenians would get missions to reconquer and culture-revert Prussia. What do you think?

But there is still one culture worth adding...
Mazovian
Even today, Mazovians differ from "regular" Poles - they have their own dialects and traditions; but the most important factor for the game would be that they were the fuel of Polish colonisation of Prussia - people who would later be known as Masurians were, in fact, the descendants of Mazovian settlers. Mazovians would inhabit the entire area of Mazovia (duh!) as well as the province of Kulm which used to belong to the duchy before Konrad of Mazovia "granted it" to the Order. The Polish decision of moving the capital to Warsaw could change the culture of that province to Polish. Oh, and the Mazovian tag wouldn't disappear that quickly which is always good!

That's it! I encourage you all to share your opinion and knowledge about this topic in the thread! Hopefully the changes will be implemented in the future. :)
 
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I'm all for it, but first i'd like to see Gdańsk being separated from Pomerelia so it would be Lubeck like province with Prussian culture and rest of it being Kashubian. They could thus remove Tuchel province if they wouldn't like to add another province for Teutons. If it comes to Pruthenian i'd rather see Masurians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masurians in these two or three provinces.
 
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I'm all for it, but first i'd like to see Gdańsk being separated from Pomerelia so it would be Lubeck like province with Prussian culture and rest of it being Kashubian. They could thus remove Tuchel province if they wouldn't like to add another province for Teutons. If it comes to Pruthenian i'd rather see Masurians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masurians in these two or three provinces.
The problem is, Polish-Masurians emerged through colonisation, just like Prussians, but ours wasn't as intense. Although it's been going for centuries it wasn't too significant until the Prussian Homage(1525). In 1444 it was much more likely for Purthenians to be majority in there rather than Masurians.

And about Danzig - I see no problem splitting it in half, though I think that'd make for too small provinces for some people.
 
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Pruthenian culture is already included in the game. It is under the "Lost Cultures" group of the nation designer. I know this isnt what you were looking for, but the regions of Pruthenia had been heavily Germanized following the northern crusades, so having them be grouped as German is not terribly inaccurate.
 
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Pruthenian culture is already included in the game. It is under the "Lost Cultures" group of the nation designer.
I know it's under lost cultures, I've mentioned that. I just want this culture to come back into the regular game.

I know this isnt what you were looking for, but the regions of Pruthenia had been heavily Germanized following the northern crusades, so having them be grouped as German is not terribly inaccurate.
Not so heavily. Teutons were colonising mainly eastern Prussia and the coast, while the inner and western parts of the region remained Baltic for a very long time. The biggest wave of settlers came with the beginning of XV century and suddenly stopped in 1411 due to the country's crisis after the great Polish-Lithuanian - Teutonic war.
Prussian culture is in German group because it represents German settlers, not the indigenous people of Prussia, who are named Pruthenians to avoid the confusion, and it should be represented in a normal campaign, without custom nations.
And of course if the culture comes back into the regular game, it won't be too big of a stretch to make it German with new culture categorising rules. Yet, personally, I'd like Pruthenians to stay Baltic so that Teutonic Order will not accept them and will be willing to culture-convert them.
 
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I always liked new cultures and you have good arguments to support it. You made me hope that this would get added. :D
 
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I'm from this area, heck, even my surname is 'Kashubian' in polish so u got my full support :) I'm just not sure about the need of national ideas - Kashubians kept their language (its the only official regional language in Poland today) and culture, but there were no serious movements for independence ever (in latest national poll less than 1% named they nationality Kashubian over Polish) and in all conflicts they were on polish side - so I dont know how Kashubian country could pop. If poland would split into many smaller countries, it would be germanised before standing a chance. Its a little bit different than silesia case. (anyway, I'd love to see that nation ingame and would make my first one tag attempt with it :D)
 
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You are getting one thing wrong: Cupture in EU4 has nothing to do with culture at all. It's obviously not about language. It's not about customs or food. It's about nationalism, what's actually misplaced in most of the games timeframe.

At some point culture as it is now shouldn't be in the game at all.
 
I'm just not sure about the need of national ideas - Kashubians kept their language (its the only official regional language in Poland today) and culture, but there were no serious movements for independence ever (in latest national poll less than 1% named they nationality Kashubian over Polish) and in all conflicts they were on polish side - so I dont know how Kashubian country could pop.
Oh, surely there could be something about diversity in the region(-10% acceptance of cultures perhaps?), about trade and maybe something referencing the old Pomeranian duchies and how they always had a lot of autonomy under Polish rule, some even were independent! Remember that this tag would represent a form of free Pomerelian entity, they'd surely like to be associated with country of Świętopełk II. :)
 
I've read some more and came back with few ideas for Kashubian Tag

Coat of arms:

gryf4.jpg


Flag:

flaga.png



National Traditions:

+15% Production efficiency
+10% Provincial trade power

National Ideas:

Western influences
-10% Development Cost

Baltic Shipyards:
-15% Light ship cost

Smart Diplomacy
+1 Diplomatic Reputation

Religious freedom
+3 Tolerance of herethics

Turmoil? not here
+25% Religious unity

Married with sea
+25% Naval force limit midifier

Military School in Puck
+1 Land leader Fire

National Ambitions:
+10% Infrantry combat ability

I dont think Im good enough to provide good descriptions (both because of my english and writing skills in general :D) but I can give background behind them.

The most 'similar' nation to Kashubia in game will be Pomerania. Before EU4 timeline, both east and west pomerania used to be kashubian culture, after germanisation of Pomeranians they were pushed to east (Stolp/Tuchel/Danzig in eu4) Then their ways split a bit (west pomerania joined HRE and had more west influence than kashubia that went back to Polish rule after 1466). Also before that date there were 150 years of Teutonic rule over Kashubian lands.

The traditions reflects 'starting position' - control of very good lands for grain production, access to sea full of fish and blooming local trade. It was the main source of income for Kashubians for ages. 15% bonus on production is pretty high, but applied only on cheapest goods so i think its not broken.

First idea (10% development cost) - Teutons during their stay in Gdansk and area put a lot of effort to develop these lands, now when they're gone we can use their methods to grow our cities for our own glory.

-15% light ship cost - I think its a fitting idea for coastal small nation focused on production and trade, also to add - "Bory Tucholskie" is one of the biggest forests in Poland today (located in Tuchel province) so they had a lot of very cheap wood to spare (and build ships).

+1 diplo rep. - small nations needs a little bit help from friends to survive, and Kashubians know that too. In history they made diplomatic relations with Brandenburg, Pomerania, Poland, Bohemia and Papal States.

next 2 ideas (+3 tolerance and religious unity) are here to reflect how reformation looked like in this area. XII century + it was fully catholic. Protestatism came very fast (because of high german population in bigger cities), Pomerania changed rly fast, but Kashubia, under control of Poland - stayed mostly catholic (except cities like Danzig that went protestant). Some nobles changed to protestant, some to reformed and some stayed catholic - but there were no fights over that, when counter-reformation came most rolled back to catholicism.

married with sea - another naval idea, dont know what to add :)

+1 Land leader fire - in XVIII century Kashubian lands fell into Prussian hands. In 1769, Friderick II opened military school in Slupsk - it was a way to germanise Kashubians, but also gave Kashubian nobles chance for military careers in Prussian army. The most known is Johann David Ludwig Graf Yorck von Wartenburg, who was son of Kashubian noble from Gostkowski family. He fought in east India in Dutch army, and as Prussian general with Russia later with France. He first reformed Prussian army and later became head of it.

ambitions - +10% infantry combat ability. (another effect of prussian influence)

Only two military ideas, but coming in the end and they have they merit (and even danzig and pomerania got their share of military ideas)

I could also provide names of Kashubian noble families and names for provinces/cities in Kashubian language.

what do u think about this set?
 
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@bek0n they're pretty nice if you ask me, hopefully someone will find good description thanks to given informations. ;)
Here are my ideas for Pruthenia, decided to go with good old story-of-revival descriptions:
Traditions:
Global Trade Power: +10%
Goods Produced: +15%

Ideas:

1. Prussian trade (trade steering +20%): Back before the crusades Truso and Wiskiauten, our two most prominent settlements were very important centers of Baltic trade. Nowadays Elbing doesn't matter as much as it used to and Königsberg has been foremostly used as military bases. Now that we have regained our land, we shall revive the Prussian trade!

2. Teutonic training (infantry combat ability +10%): Teutonic Order has been using us as a military force since our conversion in XIV century. We helped them in their ignoble campaigns and learnt a bit about the western style of warfare. Now it’s time to use it against them!

3. The Masurian swamps (attrition for enemies +1): Our land is full of impenetrable woods and swamps. Should Germans try coming back, they will all drown in marches!

4. Reconquer the Old Prussian land (core creation cost -15%): As we’ve built strong trade and army, our enemy is weakening. Now it’s time for us to reclaim what’s rightfully ours!

5. Expel the Germans! (culture conversion cost -20%): For too long have we been subjugated by the people from faraway Germany! From now on we are the ones subjugating, and don’t they think we won’t repay an eye for an eye!

6. Make use of Teutonic fortifications (local defensiveness +20%): Teutonic Order, the genocidal bastards that they were, had a knack for building castles. Since the fortresses are in our hands, why not use them?

7. The True Prussians (yearly legitimacy +1, morale of armies +15%): For centuries we’ve been the native people of Prussia and two hundred-something years of occupation can’t hide the truth. This land is ours – not Germans’, not Poles’, not even our cousins’, Lithuanians’. WE are the real Prussians and we shall defend the right to this land against even the most ominous foe!

Ambition: yearly prestige +1
What do you think? :D
 
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It's necromancy time!

With hope of Pruthenian culture appearing in the next "Still Unnamed" expansion I decided to find some dynamic names for Teutonic provinces conquered by Pruthenia.

  • (1841) Marienburg -> Truso: it's the old name of Elbląg/Elbing. The settlement used to be the most important centre of Baltic trade prior to Teutonic conquest.
  • (41) Königsberg -> Tuwangste/Kaup/Wiskiauten: both cities are placed on Sambian Peninsula. It is uncertain if name Wiskiauten was given by the German settlers or vikings in previous centuries, meanwhile it is possible that the settlement was never called "Kaup", as this is a name of a hill next to nowadays Mokhovoye. Alternatively, if you want Pruthenian name for Königsberg it would be Tuwangste or Tvangste. Either way, the name choice is up to the devs.
  • (767) Ortelsburg -> Galindia: historic geographic area in which Szczytno is situated.
  • (40) Memel -> Pilsats/Skalvia: historic names of a land upon which Memel was built and of historical area, named after a tribe of Skalvians.
  • (2958) Osterode -> Morin: This one's the most problematic - there weren't too important settlements in that area and, on top of that, the province is placed in three different historical areas. The most important city would seem to be nowadays Morąg. The settlement was placed on a trade route between Truso and the Black Sea. Alternative names for the province would be Mawrin and Maurin.
  • (42) Warmia: This one should stay!
 
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Hey, it's me again! I decided to make a small list of ruler names for Pruthenians. I used both Old Prussian and Yotvingian names.
  • Auktume
  • Linka
  • Lauke
  • Glande
  • Gomants or Komants
  • Skurda
  • Herkus
  • Diwanus or Diwane or Dywone
  • Glappe or Glappo
  • Widewuto
  • Bruteno
  • Sudo
  • Litvus
  • Sikko or Siggo
  • Jone or Jono
  • Girdawe
  • Kasparus
  • Maslaus
  • Resie
  • Monte
  • Gerike
  • Glande
  • Kaime
  • Truse
  • Balge
  • Tuwangste
  • Tapiowe
Pruthenians could also use German, Lithuanian and perhaps Polish ones, as there aren't many surnames. Besides historical surnames I decided to include some that would roughly translate to German "von Elbing", "von Königsberg" etc. I didn't use italic on them so they can be distinguished.

EDIT: Of course, I forgot to add another really important detail - the flag for Pruthenia.

Unfortunately heraldry of Pruthenians is nowhere to be found - they most likely didn't have any. In this case we need to head for other sources: there's always a variation of the Prussian black eagle to be given, but isn't that symbol overused a little? Even CK2's Pruthenians use it as their CoA!

What should be Pruthenian coat of arms then? Personally, I think the most fitting would be Prus Coat of Arms, used by Polish nobles allegedly descended from Prussians who decided to move to Poland and convert to christianity.

The coat has a few variations, for the in-game Pruthenia I'd suggest one of these two:
  1. Prus I - very simple coat of arms. Red background with white one and a half cross. Possibly easy to confuse with the CoA of Nitra.
  2. Prus III - a bit more complicated. The cross is flipped horizontally and coloured gold. Background is red-blue instead of plain red. Below the cross there's a scythe blade and half of a horseshoe.
I'd choose the second variation, but I would also remove the scythe and horseshoe from it and make the cross bigger, resulting is something in lines of this:
N8eH22o.png
 
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So I'm currently in Prussia and that insipred me to practise some necromancy!


It is estimated that around 1400 Prussians numbered 100,000 and comprised about half of the total population in Prussia.[52]

From wikipedia, source is in lithuanian so cant say anything bout that.

Also, what are ppls stance on yotvingian/baltic presence in podlasien?
 
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It is estimated that around 1400 Prussians numbered 100,000 and comprised about half of the total population in Prussia.[52]
I'd say the population in 1444 was visibly smaller due to wars and rebellions that struck Teutonic Order in the first half of XV c. For example, the land of Nadruvia saw a significant decrease in land cultivation compared to the data from before 1414.
Also, what are ppls stance on yotvingian/baltic presence in podlasien?
They had been still around in XV century but due to increasing numbers of settlers from Poland and Lithuania they went extinct somewhere in the XVI century. In game they could probably be represented in northern part of Podlasie (if it got split) and in Trakai; I don't see any reason for them to have a culture distinctive from the Pruthenians in the game, though - especially since making up a heraldry for them would be even more tiresome than thinking of one for the Old Prussians.
 
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They had been still around in XV century but due to increasing numbers of settlers from Poland and Lithuania they went extinct somewhere in the XVI century. In game they could probably be represented in northern part of Podlasie (if it got split) and in Trakai; I don't see any reason for them to have a culture distinctive from the Pruthenians in the game, though - especially since making up a heraldry for them would be even more tiresome than thinking of one for the Old Prussians.

They'd need to have an appropriate tag, though, before they could be added in as a culture.
 
I'd say the population in 1444 was visibly smaller due to wars and rebellions that struck Teutonic Order in the first half of XV c. For example, the land of Nadruvia saw a significant decrease in land cultivation compared to the data from before 1414.

They had been still around in XV century but due to increasing numbers of settlers from Poland and Lithuania they went extinct somewhere in the XVI century. In game they could probably be represented in northern part of Podlasie (if it got split) and in Trakai; I don't see any reason for them to have a culture distinctive from the Pruthenians in the game, though - especially since making up a heraldry for them would be even more tiresome than thinking of one for the Old Prussians.

Yes there is no reason to make yotvingian culture separate,
 
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I support the idea in the OP, but wasn't Sambia peninsula the place where the Pruthenian culture survived for the longest? According to the Polish wikipedia, it seems so. So if there's a Pruthenian culture introduced, then it should be present in Koningsberg province, or maybe make an additional province there to represent them.

I also think it makes sense to split the Danzig province from a historic point of view. A city itself with Prussian culture and terrains west of it with Kashubian culture.

EDIT: I've found a map that is supposed to be an ethnic map of europe from the end of the XV century. It shows that Pruthenians were still present in the provinces of Koningsberg and Memel rather than other Teutonic provinces.
sgpr4g.jpg
 
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I support the idea in the OP, but wasn't Sambia peninsula the place where the Pruthenian culture survived for the longest? According to the Polish wikipedia, it seems so. So if there's a Pruthenian culture introduced, then it should be present in Koningsberg province, or maybe make an additional province there to represent them.

I also think it makes sense to split the Danzig province from a historic point of view. A city itself with Prussian culture and terrains west of it with Kashubian culture.

EDIT: I've found a map that is supposed to be an ethnic map of europe from the end of the XV century. It shows that Pruthenians were still present in the provinces of Koningsberg and Memel.
Present? Yes. But I don't think they were the dominant population.
 
768px-Mapa_prus.svg.png

Polish wikipedia says, that at the beginning of the XV century, Pruthenians were 95-100% population in Sambia, 90% in Natangia, 60% in Warmia and between 30-50% in Pomezania, Pogezania and Barcja.
 
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