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djmatipl

Second Lieutenant
Feb 15, 2018
147
0
Back to game from long break... last time play 7-8 month ago. Now it's patch 2.3.2/3, always play as machine empire but wanna try Hive Mind, Devouring Swarm and looking for some tips or guide even on youtube where i can get info about them but working on this patch. Got all DLC, my first atempt was fail with gold, got alot of food/minerals, can exchange for gold but still... playing as machine don't have any problems (i know, ME in 2.3 are OP)... if you play Hive Mind you put most of power to food production or food and energy.
Maybe some guide in Steam workshop, youtube guide or... anything to help me start play them :) maybe i don't need guide but like i say, always got problem with energy :) and from begining i try get all planet (ofc with habiitality)... maybe too fast.
 
Hive minds get slept on a bit in the current meta, but I actually think they're quite powerful and are currently my favourite type of empire to play. By the start of midgame you can easily have driven assimilator level pop growth (without even needing robots) and insane production in all primary resources.

However, hive mind economy is weak initially due to balancing so many resources and lacking trade. To fix this, you should focus on rapid expansion. Hive minds are all about scale, so the more planets you can claim the better your economy will be. Extremely adaptive is a good trait to start with because it means you can colonise everything without worrying about food consumption or pop growth speeds. As devouring swarm, you could also try a rush strategy and just take planets from other empires, but it's going to be a bit more stressful than turtling and taking a few years to build up.

Hive minds excel at the production of primary resources. You want to designate some of your planets as resource planets (this also means you can make use of the significant bonuses from planetary specialization). Keeping energy positive should be trivial after a while, just make sure you have a few generator worlds.

As with gestalts in general, hive minds also have great building slot efficiency, which is why I don't think their amenity needs are a huge problem (at least, not initially, late game boosting amenity production or consumption will be a huge bonus). You don't really have to rush upgraded buildings as a hive mind in the same way you do as a normal empire, although once you do get upgraded buildings producing the advanced resources they need will be trivial.

Once you get into the midgame, things start to get really fun. Hive worlds are a straight upgrade to most planets, since they seem to leave rare resources intact (I don't know if this applies to all rare planetary features). Starting down the biological ascension path ASAP is also a must, as it will hugely boost your already insane pop growth. You might want to save your second and third ascension slots for these even if you unlock them earlier. Mastery of nature is also a good first pick if you're going for hive worlds, as it will just make them even better.

As a devouring swarm, you will want to start conquering at some point. Conquering means more planets, more scale and more temporary food production (you have a policy which gives +33% growth for +50% food, it seems kind of designed for swarms). Usual strategies for genocidal empires apply. Just watch out for that mutual threats modifier or be prepared to fight the entire galaxy at some point.
 
Synapse drone are awful and should be disabled on new colony (or you are going to get into the red really fast) . Once your new colony is starting to run you can reactivate this job (you still need unity )
Ascetic civic , Charismatic and extremely adaptative are a must , you don't have robot to colonize and your amenities building sucks .
You should also take synchronicity traditions early on (first , second or third , depend on what you need the most) , you really need it's +2 maintenance job and -10% amenities used.
Adaptability is really good too and supremacy is god mod with devouring swarm , i don't see how you can lose with supremacy tree , devouring swarm bonus and the high number of pop you start with (spam foundry ) , you just obliterate everything .


As a devouring swarm with extremely adaptative , you are OP , devouring swarm is by far the most broken civic in the game with absolutely insane bonus allowing you to easily win war and extremely adaptative allow you to conquer everything without to much penalty . The game is finished by 2240 as nothing can stop you .
 
The biggest problem with Hiveminds: They simply suck in the current iteration of the game. They have weak stats in terms of housing districts, Synapse Drones, Traditions, growth, habitability. Basically everything about them is a weaker version compared to what non-Gestalt or Robots get. This is painfully obvious if you simply glance at ingame descriptions like Hive worlds, Synapse Drones, Leaders, Pop growth, traditions, districts for 10 minutes.

That being said, there are bandaids that help. They will make your playthrough bearable but you will never be able to compete with other empires if played properly. Do the following:

  • Choose bonus habitability, growth, amenity output traits for your species
  • Make sure to disable as many maintenance drone jobs as possible while staying at positive amenities. This frees them up for other jobs.
  • Completely ignore improving your energy output in the earlygame. Hivemind energy output is the weakest in the entire game, you will be constantly struggeling with it while Machine empires drown in energy. To get energy, sell your food on the market or other empires. As long as conversion rate stays ok, this is more energy output by selling food than producing it yourself.
  • On new colonies, disable Synapse Drones immediately. Not only are Synapse Drones a worse version of Machine Empirer coordinators (as pretty much everything for Hivemind), but they also consume a ton of food and energy. You want these pops to produce raw ressources on your new planets, not drain all your food and energy.
  • Make use of housing buildings. Hivemind housing buildings are quite good, however Hivemind housing districts are utter garbage, they are the worst in the game. Obviously on planets dedicated to complex drones like tech or alloy production, you will be forced to use Housing districts. These provide 0 maintenance drones so you will have to waste slots on maintenance depots, so your tech/alloy production is going to lack behind other empires a lot. Machine empires, again have it a lot better.
  • Eventually, turn every planet into a Hive world and set planet designation to food/energy accordingly. Once Biological Ascencion is done, Gene mod your pops to have the right traits on your mineral/food/tech/energy producing planets. Hive worlds are straight up worse than Machine worlds since you don't get a 10% housing reduction, but Hiveminds being worse should surprise no one at this point anymore.
  • Choose the right civics: Hiveminds have some of the worst, outdated and most boring civics in the game. The only good one is Devouring Swarm, though you will still be weaker than other genocidal civics or Machines. Without Devouring Swarm, you set yourself up for a big challenge. Take Ascetic, its alright since you are struggeling with amenities anyway.
And don't forget to keep hoping that Paradox will one day acknowledge that Hiveminds are in a really, really bad state just like Machine empirers in 2.2 and that they will get much needed buffs and civic updates.
 
The biggest problem with Hiveminds: They simply suck in the current iteration of the game. They have weak stats in terms of housing districts, Synapse Drones, Traditions, growth, habitability. Basically everything about them is a weaker version compared to what non-Gestalt or Robots get. This is painfully obvious if you simply glance at ingame descriptions like Hive worlds, Synapse Drones, Leaders, Pop growth, traditions, districts for 10 minutes.

There are some things here I agree with, but some are just baffling.

Hive mind districts are literally the single biggest advantage of playing hive minds. At absolute worst, you could say that hives are a little weaker than cities or nexuses after technology is applied. However, hive mind resource districts are by far the best in the game, rivalled only by regular empires with agrarian idyll (whose housing districts are considerably worse than hives). Hives also have the best housing buildings in the game, with only the shared burdens unique buildings able to provide anything close to the same utility.

Even in energy production, which is the primary resource production in which machine empires excel, the simple fact that hive mind energy districts have an extra job means they can produce as much energy per district as a machine empire, and energy isn't even the resource their pops consume. Even rockbreakers/mining guilds just doesn't compete with hive mind mineral production, and rockbreakers is the boring OP meta civic all machine empires must take to appease reddit.

And this is why hive worlds are so good, because the core benefit of machine and hive worlds is the ability to build resource districts irrespective of deposits, and hive minds just have better resource districts than any other empire.

There are genuine problems with hive minds. Yes, their civics are mostly weak and universally boring. Yes, their traditions could use a pass. Yes, synapse drones are not as good as coordinators (although I don't think this is a problem, coordinators are exceptionally good and are clearly meant to be an advantage for machine empires) but they are not weak by any stretch of the imagination, let alone as weak as 2.2 machine empires. 2.2 machine empires would struggle to break even on resources until way into the late game. Hive minds, at worst, have a slightly tough early game.

We know at this point that machine empires are going to be nerfed. They should not be the standard.
 
Hive mind districts are literally the single biggest advantage of playing hive minds.
Which is just flat-out sad.
the simple fact that hive mind energy districts have an extra job
An extra job and no extra housing.
And this is why hive worlds are so good, because the core benefit of machine and hive worlds is the ability to build resource districts irrespective of deposits, and hive minds just have better resource districts than any other empire.
All the jobs in the world don't matter if you don't have the housing for it.
We know at this point that machine empires are going to be nerfed.
I'll believe it when I see it.
 
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Hive mind districts are literally the single biggest advantage of playing hive minds.

Hivemind raw ressource districts are literally the only good thing about Hiveminds, yes.
However, having 3 jobs per district doesn't do much at the start. First, you need pops to work them. Since Hivemind have the weakest growth in the game (outclassed by non-Gestalt as soon as colony hits 10 pops + Robot assembly) and weakest lategame growth, they need time to get any use out of their efficient ressource districts.

Then you have to consider that housing districts for Hiveminds are garbage and force you to waste many building slots on maintenance depots. Overall Gestalts struggle heavily with amenities and unlike Machines, who get +2 housing for every Maintenance depot and Maintenance Drones from their housing districts, Hiveminds have huge problems with creating alloys or tech.

You simply looked at ressource districts in a vacuum and concluded that they are good. They are, but everything else about Hiveminds is terrible. You also forgot that Hiveminds have huge problems with deviancy. While non-Gestalt simply enact crime lord deal for +10 stability on every planet and don't care about crime, Hiveminds eventually have to construct additional enforcer buildings just to keep their deviancy in check. Their stability is also quite weak.
 
Oh wow, it's almost like the housing districts with the highest base housing in the game were designed to compliment the resource districts providing extra jobs..
Barely. Also, unlike EVERYONE ELSE's city districts, those give no amenities either.
 
Oh wow, it's almost like the housing districts with the highest base housing in the game were designed to compliment the resource districts providing extra jobs..

Its +1 extra housing and 0 maintenance Drone jobs. Again, you are picking out something and look at it in a vacuum, this is the wrong way to do it.
Are you intentionally ignoring everything else?

Traditions for example. Hiveminds only get +2 housing from Synapse node building (1 per planet). Non-Gestalt gets +1 housing per housing building and +1 per capital building from tradition. Machine empires get +2 housing per maintenance depot, of which you will always have multiple per planet. Ontop of that, Machine empires get their 10% housing reduction from Machine worlds, which Hiveminds don't get at all since their Hive worlds are simply worse versions of Machine worlds.

Unless you are using Planets with tons of Housing buildings, Hiveminds have less housing from bonuses than Machine empires. And on planets build for advanced ressources like Science and Alloys, Hiveminds are exceptionally weak.

Please don't pretend Hiveminds are any good just by bringing up something and ignoring everything else. We have been telling Paradox about these issues for months now.
 
However, having 3 jobs per district doesn't do much at the start. First, you need pops to work them. Since Hivemind have the weakest growth in the game (outclassed by non-Gestalt as soon as colony hits 10 pops + Robot assembly) and weakest lategame growth, they need time to get any use out of their efficient ressource districts.

A starting hive mind with spawning pools is only .5 pop growth behind a starting mechanist empire with a robot assembly and .3 behind a starting driven assimilator. It's also .5 ahead of a normal machine empire.

Dual pop production is probably too good at the moment, and certain fringe situations like relics can make robot pop growth ridiculous, but hive minds really aren't the worst in the game. If anything, the fact that robots are required to remain competitive arguably hits spiritualists harder than hive minds.

Then you have to consider that housing districts for Hiveminds are garbage and force you to waste many building slots on maintenance depots.

It's one maintenance drone per district.

Maintenance drone jobs are not a precious resource. In a sense you are technically correct that hive minds might need to build more maintenance depots, but this is not going to cripple your output of anything. Again, the entire point of hive minds is that they excel at producing basic resources. If you're not getting peak efficiency out of tech worlds or forge worlds, then build more. You can afford it.

You simply looked at ressource districts in a vacuum and concluded that they are good.

No, you simply looked at housing districts in a vacuum and concluded that they were bad (seriously, they aren't even bad, just specialised) without seeing the very obvious relationship they have to the resource districts.

I'm seeking to add that context back in.

Again, there are real problems with hive minds. They have weak and boring civics, traditions which don't make sense and all kinds of stuff that could be worked on or rebalanced, but they're only underpowered if you compare them to the stuff which is incredibly overpowered. Sure, there's quite a lot of overpowered stuff in Stellaris, but that goes way beyond hive minds.
 
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A starting hive mind with spawning pools is only .5 pop growth behind a starting mechanist empire with a robot assembly and .3 behind a starting driven assimilator. It's also .5 ahead of a normal machine empire.

Dual pop production is probably too good at the moment, and certain fringe situations like relics can make robot pop growth ridiculous, but hive minds really aren't the worst in the game. If anything, the fact that robots are required to remain competitive arguably hits spiritualists harder than hive minds.



It's one maintenance drone per district.

Maintenance drone jobs are not a precious resource. In a sense you are technically correct that hive minds might need to build more maintenance depots, but this is not going to cripple your output of anything. Again, the entire point of hive minds is that they excel at producing basic resources. If you're not getting peak efficiency out of tech worlds or forge worlds, then build more. You can afford it.



No, you simply looked at housing districts in a vacuum and concluded that they were bad (seriously, they aren't even bad, just specialised) without seeing the very obvious relationship they have to the resource districts.

I'm seeking to add that context back in.

Again, there are real problems with hive minds. They have weak and boring civics, traditions which don't make sense and all kinds of stuff that could be worked on or rebalanced, but they're only underpowered if you compare them to the stuff which is incredibly overpowered. Sure, there's quite a lot of overpowered stuff in Stellaris, but that goes way beyond hive minds.

The problem of hive mind is that their superior pop growth is totaly negated by their shit amenities and their inferior building . You use more pop for inferior result , standard empire have way better job .
-1 hyper-entertainment forums is worth 4 maintenance depot . So normal empire use 3 time less pop and 4 time less buildings for the same result . Nice . And then you have habitability malus . NICE!!! It force you into extremely adaptative , charismatic and ascetic right away , you can't do anything without it
-Sentinel post suck , normal empire can upgrade this building , hive mind can't .
-Capital buildings have no lvl 4 available (why?)
-City districts are bad , a simple +5 housing and +1 maintenance drone job would be better , it would free building slot
-Useless ringworld city district , it prodive no job .. yes you have to build 6 maintenance depot and 3 sentinel post on one section of a ringworld .


Maintenance depot and Sentinel post should be upgradable for hive mind .
A capital building lvl 4 would be nice too .
Synapse drone should either cost less or provide better bonus
 
1 hyper-entertainment forums is worth 4 maintenance depot.

They aren't really directly comparable in function. Remember that gestalt empires don't have or need consumer goods.

-Sentinel post suck , normal empire can upgrade this building , hive mind can't.

Remember that the biggest source of crime/deviancy is unhappy pops. While gestalts can struggle with deviancy in some fringe situations, it's mostly a problem if you're trying to do things like mass livestock (and hive minds have a huge advantage over machine empires in that they can nerve staple their livestock).

Remember, machine empires are generally understood to be overpowered, and they use these gestalt buildings too.

-Capital buildings have no lvl 4 available (why?)

You'll notice that the Hive Nexus (the upgraded hive mind capital) is a little bit better than other 40 pop hive mind capitals, and that all hive mind capitals cost less upkeep. Essentially, you are trading less potential for earlier bonuses.

-City districts are bad , a simple +5 housing and +1 maintenance drone job would be better , it would free building slot

Again, I think this is highly subjective and depends entirely what a planet is being used for. Resource extraction worlds don't need many building slots, for example, and benefit much more from the higher population to make use of highly efficient resource districts.

-Useless ringworld city district , it prodive no job .. yes you have to build 6 maintenance depot and 3 sentinel post on one section of a ringworld .

Ringworld districts for hive minds follow the same logic as other hive mind districts, but it's pushed to the extreme because they're 10 times larger. The wiki incorrectly lists the housing numbers for ringworld sections, but they are essentially the same as 10 nexuses or hives (ringworld cities work slightly differently, they give a single enforcer job instead of 10 clerks). This means each has advantages and disadvantages. Yes, ringworld hives provide the highest possible housing at the cost of not providing jobs, meaning you hypothetically need to devote more building slots (although by the time you get ringworlds, you will certainly not need 6 maintenance posts or 3 sentinel posts) but the reward is a larger number of free pops to fill out those high-job resource districts.

I would question the utility of urban ringworlds with any empire (particularly non-gestalts, who have a much better option in the form of the ecumenopolis) since you will quickly run out of building slots anyway. Machine empires are the only empire type which might be able to make it work since their urban districts provide a lot of basic jobs. Hive minds are not designed to work like this.

It's also worth noting that while we're on the subject of megastructures, hive minds have objectively the best habitat districts in the game.

Synapse drone should either cost less or provide better bonus

It's already confimed that synapse drones are being reworked due to bureaucrats and culture workers becoming distinct. It seems like they will fill the role of both for hive minds.
 
While gestalts can struggle with deviancy in some fringe situations

They will always struggle with deviancy on big planets with many pops.

They aren't really directly comparable in function. Remember that gestalt empires don't have or need consumer goods.

Yes they are directly comparable. All you need is to be at +0 consumer goods and you are alright as non-Gestalt. The whole science production chain for non-Gestalt using consumer goods also means that you pay much less minerals per science produces.

You'll notice that the Hive Nexus (the upgraded hive mind capital) is a little bit better than other 40 pop hive mind capitals

Lacks in additional maintenance drone jobs, enforcer jobs.

Again, I think this is highly subjective

Why would you ever call maintenance drone jobs subjective. Its clearly not. There is no decision whether to use these jobs or not. You have to use them.
Since you don't get them, you waste building slots on maintenance depots. Non-Gestalt can simply upgrade their holo theatres and need way fewer building slots dedicated to amenities. Machines get more Maintenance Drones plus additional tech drone jobs which produce 50% more energy from their overpowered Nexus districts.

I have already explained to you that Hiveminds do not even have more Housing than Machines or other empires. Machines get +2 housing per maintenance depot, Hiveminds only ever get +2 if you build your culture worker building (which by the way also only provides up to 7 jobs, instead of 10 for non-Gestalt) then you add that 10% housing reduction for Machines which Paradox decided to not give to Hive worlds for whatever reason.

You have to pay really close attention to detail with these numbers, because so far whoever designed Hiveminds did not do so in the slightest, or simply decided to give Hiveminds worse stats at every corner.

You also mentioned the upcoming changes to Synapse Drones. However the devs have also state that Machine empires would get a job thats even better at providing admin cap than what other empires get. At this point we have no reason to believe Paradox is even going to do anything for Hiveminds. We have been pointing out the same issues for months and asking for Civic updates. But even when Paradox reworked Warrior Culture in the past, they completely ignored strength of Legions for Hiveminds even though both used to be identical.

They were pretty quick to change Machine empires after 2.2 and 2.2.5 made them 10x more overpowered than they are now, then they had to be scaled back because players were killing Fallen empires by 2260-2270. But when it comes to anything without Robots, Paradox has not lifted a finger to provide any proper balance changes since 2.2.6. As we all know 2.3 is having the worst balance since 2.2 by making Machines/Robots vs Organic balance worse while also adding relics which heavily favour Machines and Robots. Spiritualists and Hiveminds should not suffer just because Paradox decided to make Robots by far the best pop type and pop growth option.
 
They aren't really directly comparable in function. Remember that gestalt empires don't have or need consumer goods.

Doesn't change the fact that they are superior . Building slot are needed for refinement .

Remember that the biggest source of crime/deviancy is unhappy pops. While gestalts can struggle with deviancy in some fringe situations, it's mostly a problem if you're trying to do things like mass livestock (and hive minds have a huge advantage over machine empires in that they can nerve staple their livestock).

Remember, machine empires are generally understood to be overpowered, and they use these gestalt buildings too.

Yeah but high happiness REDUCE deviancy , so on a regular empire you achieve 0 crime with just the capital buildings job quite easily .On the other hand hive mind produce 1 deviancy per pop ... and your capital have less deviancy reduction job , oh and hive mind hunter seeker drone is worse than enforcer .
Happiness also increase stability and ressource production , you can achieve really high stability on a regular empire .
Machine strong point off set the shit maintenance depot and the shit sentinel post . Best city district in the game , best capital building , best job (6 energy against 4 for other empire) , best alloy production , can colonize everything easily .


You'll notice that the Hive Nexus (the upgraded hive mind capital) is a little bit better than other 40 pop hive mind capitals, and that all hive mind capitals cost less upkeep. Essentially, you are trading less potential for earlier bonuses.

That's false

Normal capital building lvl 3 :
total production is 3 house (8 - 5 job) , 27 amenities (32 - 5 from pop ) , 11 unity , -35 to -45 crime (depending of happiness)
total upkeep is : 5 energy , 5 food , 4 CG and 5 pop

hive mind capital building lvl 3 :
Total production is : 0 house (10 - 10 job) , 20 amenities (30 - 10 from pop ) , 11 unity , -30 crime (40 - 10 from pop ) and 9 society research
Total upkeep is : 10 energy , 16 food , 10 pop

Basicaly hive mind need two time more pop for a worse result . Their lvl 3 capital building is shit .


Ringworld districts for hive minds follow the same logic as other hive mind districts, but it's pushed to the extreme because they're 10 times larger. The wiki incorrectly lists the housing numbers for ringworld sections, but they are essentially the same as 10 nexuses or hives (ringworld cities work slightly differently, they give a single enforcer job instead of 10 clerks). This means each has advantages and disadvantages. Yes, ringworld hives provide the highest possible housing at the cost of not providing jobs, meaning you hypothetically need to devote more building slots (although by the time you get ringworlds, you will certainly not need 6 maintenance posts or 3 sentinel posts) but the reward is a larger number of free pops to fill out those high-job resource districts.

But you need tons of maintenance depots(depends of the amount of bonus) and 3 sentinel post , it's mathematical . You can reduce the number of maintenance depot (with huge bonus ) but you will need at least 4 of them . How do you think you sustain a 200 pop ringworld ? That's 200 deviancy and 200 amenities needed .
A standard maintenance depot produce 12 amenities but i think by this time everyone should have the tradition for more job so +20 amenities
Now that i'm doing the math it's nearly impossible to have a decent ringworld without incredible bonus to amenities , we are at 9 maintenance depot to be in the positive here , better stack those amenities bonus lol
For deviancy the math is easier : 40 less deviancy / building , so with 3 building we have -160 deviancy (i take into account the capital ) with basic governor and research bonus you are good .
City ringworld district should provide maintenance job that's all .
 
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From my experience:
1. Get trait and civic to boost amenities.
2. Only switch pop growth policy, when you actually have the food production food surplus to afford it. Not right from the start.
3. It can be a good idea to use extraction focus in the early game.
4. As a hive it is extremely important to disable jobs on new colonies. Especially the synapse drones will kill your early food production.
 
They will always struggle with deviancy on big planets with many pops.

So will machine empires, and yet machine empires are overpowered.

Personally, I've never found deviancy to be a problem with gestalts outside of fringe scenarios, and I've never found deviancy + maintenance to require significantly more investment than providing consumer goods in a non-gestalt empire.

Yes they are directly comparable. All you need is to be at +0 consumer goods and you are alright as non-Gestalt. The whole science production chain for non-Gestalt using consumer goods also means that you pay much less minerals per science produces.

Consumer goods require building slots.

Non-gestalts using consumer goods for science means that non-gestalts need building slots for consumer goods factories to keep science up. This eats into building slots, just like gestalts needing maintenance depots or sentinel posts. In the late game, non-gestalts can partially get around this by using high tier buildings or ecumenopoli, but both also require advanced resources.. which also require minerals. There are more factors which go into consumer good production than just the mineral cost, and this is without even considering that hive minds excel at mineral production.

Why would you ever call maintenance drone jobs subjective. Its clearly not. There is no decision whether to use these jobs or not. You have to use them.

There is no decision whether to build housing or not. You have to use it.

You are talking about sacrificing one essential thing (maintenance drone jobs) for another (housing). In either case, you will need to make up the difference elsewhere. The question is what is more valuable to you in the situation you are in. That is a subjective choice.

I have already explained to you that Hiveminds do not even have more Housing than Machines or other empires. Machines get +2 housing per maintenance depot, Hiveminds only ever get +2 if you build your culture worker building (which by the way also only provides up to 7 jobs, instead of 10 for non-Gestalt) then you add that 10% housing reduction for Machines which Paradox decided to not give to Hive worlds for whatever reason.

+2 housing per maintenance depot is a great tradition, and is certainly better than the hive mind variant. I have talked about hive minds having comparatively weak traditions already.

But none of this will change the fact that 5 housing, 1 maintenance drone and 1 technician drone is not strictly better than 6 housing. You are not saying "hive minds have weak traditions and can't get housing from maintenance depots" you are saying that hive mind housing districts are objectively the worse than alternatives. That is not true.

Also, expanded warren vs. upgraded drone storage.

Hive worlds are good because hive mind resource districts are good. A primary benefit of both hive and machine worlds is the ability to ignore resource deposits, and that is a bigger benefit to hive minds than machine empires. Hive worlds can be significantly better than machine worlds at producing food or minerals even with the reduced housing need of machine worlds, and can nearly keep pace with them in producing energy.

Again, I feel like you are doing exactly what you accused me of doing earlier, looking at the raw bonuses and concluding that one option is better, without considering how it interacts with other mechanics.

At this point we have no reason to believe Paradox is even going to do anything for Hiveminds. We have been pointing out the same issues for months and asking for Civic updates. But even when Paradox reworked Warrior Culture in the past, they completely ignored strength of Legions for Hiveminds even though both used to be identical.

I agree entirely. Again, I've made no effort to hide the fact that I think hive mind civics are boring thematically and underpowered mechanically. As said, they've become my favourite type of empire to play, and I want Paradox to work on them and make them better. But I think that's something which should be done regardless of whether hive minds are "underpowered" or not.

Personally, I really don't think they are underpowered, and I wouldn't want to see them generally buffed across the board or their weaknesses removed, because I think that would make them less unique. Hive minds should have their own playstyle, and I'm fine with them being weaker in some areas provided they are stronger than others, which they currently are.

I think we spend too much time comparing everything to the latest meta builds and demanding everything else be brought up to that level. But I think if we indulge that desire too much, we're going to end up with a very flat and homogeneous game.
 
The big problems with Hiveminds are two:

1. They were promised to be all about high number (pops and jobs) however regular empires that are building robots are currently way better at the whole pop thing so that adventage goes out of the window.

2. The hiveminds have no late game. Like literally none. They get a boost at the early game, but once you leave it you only have hiveworlds and genetic ascension to help you in the late game. Regular Empires can upgrade their Amenity and Crime fighting buildings, Hiveminds can't and as such they suffer the hardest from overpopulated worlds and the later game in general.

Workaround for 1.: Beeline to Genetic Ascension and use livestock as a food source so you have more workers for amenities and other ressources.

Workaround for 2.: None. You will always be inferior to regular empires in the later game.
 
Consumer goods require building slots.

Non-gestalts using consumer goods for science means that non-gestalts need building slots for consumer goods factories to keep science up. This eats into building slots, just like gestalts needing maintenance depots or sentinel posts. In the late game, non-gestalts can partially get around this by using high tier buildings or ecumenopoli, but both also require advanced resources.. which also require minerals. There are more factors which go into consumer good production than just the mineral cost, and this is without even considering that hive minds excel at mineral production.

Trade policy -> consumer benefit help a lot
Ecumenopolis litteraly erase the problem of CG
Also normal researcher are way more ressource effective than gestalt consciousness .
Honestly i think the balance between normal and gestalt consciousness is okay for researcher cost .

But none of this will change the fact that 5 housing, 1 maintenance drone and 1 technician drone is not strictly better than 6 housing. You are not saying "hive minds have weak traditions and can't get housing from maintenance depots" you are saying that hive mind housing districts are objectively the worse than alternatives. That is not true.

But it's true , hive mind have the worst housing district in the game , it's a fact . It's not different , it's objectively worse .
-hive district give 6 housing
-city district give 5 housing and 1 clerk (2 amenities and 2 trade value) or 2 with tradition
-nexus district give 5 housing ,1 technician and 1 maintenance drone (4 amenities and 6 energy)
Having job on city district reduce the strain on building slot for amenities and on district slot for energy .
It's not a bad thing that hive mind have bad city district (everything need to have down side ) the problem is more that hive mind struggle so much with building slot and amenities that it feel like the nail in the coffin .


Also, expanded warren vs. upgraded drone storage.

Expanded warren are another example of "i use pop for thing where other don't use pop and have the same result "
12 housing and 2 maintenance drone job , seems good right ? No it's not .
Once you add what those two job cost you end up with : 10 housing , 6 amenities , +2 deviancy , - 2food .
so they are objectively worse than utopian communal housing and around equal to upgraded drone storage . nice .


Hive worlds are good because hive mind resource districts are good. A primary benefit of both hive and machine worlds is the ability to ignore resource deposits, and that is a bigger benefit to hive minds than machine empires. Hive worlds can be significantly better than machine worlds at producing food or minerals even with the reduced housing need of machine worlds, and can nearly keep pace with them in producing energy.

Okay i'm really sad to say this but ... it's false . It have more to do with machine empire being OP than hive mind being UP
Explanation : Menial drone production boost , rockbreaker civic , better mineral purification hub , the fact that they don't need food and the fact that their technician job is OP
use less pop , less housing , less building for better result .



I agree entirely. Again, I've made no effort to hide the fact that I think hive mind civics are boring thematically and underpowered mechanically. As said, they've become my favourite type of empire to play, and I want Paradox to work on them and make them better. But I think that's something which should be done regardless of whether hive minds are "underpowered" or not.

I agree .

Personally, I really don't think they are underpowered, and I wouldn't want to see them generally buffed across the board or their weaknesses removed, because I think that would make them less unique. Hive minds should have their own playstyle, and I'm fine with them being weaker in some areas provided they are stronger than others, which they currently are.

The main problems are amenities , deviancy and tradition . It's okay to have weakness but those weakness force you into one play style (habitability and amenities boost )
On the other hand devouring swarm need a nerf .