A few ideas about CK3 - a historian's insight

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ScarecrowKrone

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CK2 is a fantastic game that I still play a lot. However, it annoys me deeply more than most other games in my library do, simply because of the sacrifices it makes for playability - accuracy often goes out the window. With that in mind, I'm going to make a (fairly long post sadly) about what we know of the medieval world and forward several ideas about how these thoughts could possibly make their way into CK3. You are warned, this is a LONG post.

I'd like to make three things clear from the outset. Firstly, I'm an academically trained medieval historian out of grad school - I do know what I'm talking about most of the time. Secondly, this post is not intended as either a critique of CK2, PDX or anything like that. I love CK2 and will keep playing it. Finally, I do not have any expectations of the CK3 development to implement any of these ideas. I am sure they will do a fantastic job and make a brilliant game. I'm making this post because I want to, and because I find the period fascinating.

1. Titulature: This is a big one. CK2 used a 'tier' system for titles which rewarded progression but is not accurate. To condense what would otherwise be an essay, the title which one uses is meaningless without the context. A man can call himself king but lacking legitimacy and recognition makes his claims pointless and hollow. CK3 should have some sort of legitimacy mechanic, which is dependent on things like dynastic lineage, church support and in some cases the support of the people as a result of their actions. Legitimacy should fluctuate through a reign and rulers with low legitimacy run the risk of rebellions, usurpations and vassals becoming independent. Furthermore, claiming a title should be more of a big deal than it currently is, especially since CK2 started with lands already 'de jure' which was often an oversimplification at best and inaccurate at worst - duchies weren't introduced in English titulature until 1337. Therefore, I propose a mechanic which makes titles more flexible and much more realistic - overlordship. Basically, the tier system is reworked to allow 'lords' to exert authority over other lords of the same 'rank' if said lords recognise the authority of the former - through war, dynastic seniority, economic strength and the like. Tributary states is a step in the right direction but is an oversimplification of how feudal lords interacted; it is a mistake to assume that there was a fixed hierarchy in the medieval world.

2. Population: The second big one. Right now, CK2 reduces population down to a common culture and religion per unit of land. I read the recent DD about how baronies are now separate packets of land - do they get their own ethnoreligious identity? What I'm getting at is diversity in population was a key factor in power dynamics, as well as simple numerical demographics. Wars and raids cause depopulation, depopulation reduces the available manpower of the territory and this metric decided the course of whole states. Byzantium's military strength was severely curtailed by the Arab conquests and the near-annual raids from the caliphates that came in the years that followed. As a result, Byzantium was highly cautious, mostly attempting to remain at peace with its neighbours through excellent diplomacy and only daring to fight battles it knew it could win. Losing men in large numbers was a disaster for Byzantium for two reasons: it could not afford to replace them and military loss was hugely damaging for the legitimacy of ruling emperors, who would often suffer unrest, rebellion and coups in the wake of a military defeat. When repopulating its eastern themata, Byzantium often had to rely on non-Roman populations such as Armenians, Georgians, Bulgarians and even Arabs (mostly converted of course). The difficulties in managing such populations was a significant factor in the inability of Byzantium to counter the Turkish invaders of the High Middle Ages. To use a western example, the Albigensian Crusade had little to do with enforcing orthodox faith on 'heretics'; it was more about reclaiming parts of 'France' from non-French peoples.

To use another example, the crusader states and crusading in general was not 'Christians vs. Muslims'. There was no clash of civilisation narrative, but more on that later. Recent scholarship has found that actually, Muslims fought on the side of the crusader states and Christians fought for the emirates throughout the entire Outremer period. This was not just in the form of mercenary troops, but rather the diversity of populations present in Syria and the Levant, which resulted in extreme difficulties in maintaining large enough numbers of troops for both the Fatimids and the Crusader states. In brief, sedentary societies (even in the medieval period) struggle to mobilise more than a few percent of its population, whereas nomadic societies maintain large percentages of their population under arms. In summary, there should be some sort of mechanic about population, influenced by governmental/social type directly affecting the number of available soldiers, and ways in which the player can increase the population of a region. Furthermore, the ethnoreligious diversity of peoples should be recognised in CK3 and have a real impact on the game. One more quick note, population should also have an effect on the wealth generation of sedentary societies. For example, more than 90% of wealth generation was from agrarian activity in Byzantium.

3. Byzantium/Romania: As a Byzantinist, this one consistently gets on my nerves. Pre-1204, Byzantium was absolutely not feudal in any way, shape or form. The bureaucratic government ran the apparatus of state through a series of offices and positions held by individuals who received salaries for doing so. Politically, all power was focused on the personage of the emperor and in a way, the state was highly dynamic. The strategoi of the themata did not 'own' the land they managed, and neither did the katepans or the doukes. They were often replaced or moved around to different commands. The argument that is often posited for 'feudalism' in the Byzantine Empire is the actions of the great dynatoi (powerful families) in acquiring lands. Whilst it is true that the accumulation of lands into the hands of a few families was a concern for emperors, it is not landholding that gave the dynatoi their power - in fact at the height of the theme system, lands were often organised into kouratoreia (imperial estates) and managed by imperial officials. Furthermore, lands that were reserved for the maintenance and provision of soldiers, the strateia, were inviolate by imperial decree and did not fall under the purview of landholding families. What the dynatoi were competing for, what gave them their power, were army commands such as that of the domestikos ton scholon (Domestic of the Schools, commanded the elite tagmata and often acted as commander-in-chief of the armed forces) and the droungarios tou ploimou (essentiallly Admiral of the Fleet). All the coups of the tenth century, successful and unsuccessful, originated from military officers; Romanos I Lekapenos was droungarios tou ploimou, and Nikephoros II Phokas, Bardas Skleros and Bardas Phokas all held the position of domestikos ton scholon when they launched their coup attempts. Ioannes I Tzimiskes also held successive army commands before his reign and was a well-respected career military officer when he murdered Nikephoros II Phokas. Essentially, this is a personal plea to the CK3 dev team - please do not make Byzantium a 'feudal' state when it absolutely wasn't. There are many ways to make Byzantium both realistic and interesting to play without making them entirely inaccurate; like I have alluded to, emperors faced their own challenges and power in Byzantium was much more fluid than in other medieval states. Feudal states did not have to contend with the possibility that lowborn men posed a direct threat to the ruling dynasty, yet within sixty years in Byzantium, the ruling dynasty changed from Amorian to Macedonian to Lekapenos; both Basileios I and Romanos I were born to peasant families. Oh, and we should all stop referring to it as the Byzantine Empire when it was called Romania by its people, but even the field of Byzantine Studies recognises that some things are too ingrained and will probably be happy to make this concession for the sake of convenience once we've stopped arguing about it.

4. Trade: Trade was a key source for revenue for many, not just merchant republics. It was also much more developed in the medieval period than conventional views of the era might assume. Wars were fought over trade revenues, cities sprung up around the wealth of trade routes and faded when trade moved elsewhere. A good example of this is Antioch. A valuable city to Christianity in Late Antiquity for both its trade revenues and its spiritual significance, it was less relevant to the caliphates which used Aleppo and Damascus as trading hubs instead. When the Mongols pressed into the Levant, trading routes were pushed so far away that Antioch, further reduced by the collapse of Crusader power, faded to obscurity and was never repopulated. (Whilst I'm talking about Antioch, it was made further irrelevant to the caliphates because governing a majority-Christian city close to the Byzantine frontier was too much effort, linking back to number #2). Secondly, major trade routes did not just 'stop' in the East either - the Silk Road was more a concept than a physical land route too, since significant proportions of the Silk Road trade came up via ships and only travelled a small proportion of their overall distance from their 'source' on land. In fact, major established trade routes criss-crossed the medieval world and exploiting their wealth/controlling their revenues was a priority for many medieval rulers. The majority of glass in the British Isles pre-early eleventh century (when Anglo-Scandinavian craftsmen began to manufacture indigenous glass, although admittedly a lot of it was remelted Roman glass with extra lead) originated from the great glass workshops of Syria, Egypt and the Levant. There is evidence of Byzantine trade activity from Ireland to Mali to the Swahili coast to Sri Lanka and China. The medieval world was much more interconnected and global than we ever thought and we are finding more evidence of this all the time - trade should be much more important across the entire CK3 map than it currently is in CK2. In retrospect, I should have put this point much higher up in this list.

5. Crusading and Holy Wars: Just a few notes on the historical accuracy of these terms and their associated concepts. Modern scholarship now understands the Crusades very differently. As previously mentioned, there is no 'clash of civilisations' narrative - Christians did not fight in the Crusades because they hated Islam. They were however, driven on by some sort of faith-based motive, even if it wasn't about the religious differences of their opponent. In reference to the First Crusade and therefore the invention of crusading, it came about as part of a seriously complex and unique set of political and religious circumstances in both the East and the West - Alexios I Komnenos appealed to (the politically weakest) one of the two Popes for military aid, knowing that a religious leader stood a better chance at uniting the squabbling feudal lords than any of the aforementioned lords did. It was Alexios I's choice to wrap his plea in religious rhetoric. It was the Pope Urban II's decision to amplify this rhetoric as a casus belli and make spiritual promises for participants. Without these events taking place in the order that they did we would probably have never seen a single 'Crusade' occur. If the Romans had been able to defeat the Turks themselves, we may not have even seen Alexios Komnenos on the Byzantine throne to ask for help in the first place. These events invented Crusading as we know it. Up until the First Crusade, my own research and that of other scholars indicates quite strongly that a Christian concept of 'holy war' to match that of the fully-fledged scriptural duty of Islamic jihad never developed beyond that of rhetoric and propaganda - war was simply too risky to undertake for anything other than a political, pragmatic reason. Holy wars in general are defined by the proof that the religious difference of any given enemy was the primary cause for justifying and resorting to war against an enemy irrespective of either social or political pressures and imperatives - to my knowledge, we have not found any evidence of genuine holy war in Christian societies prior to 1095. EDIT: I was taken out of context later in the thread and it was possibly my fault so I'll make this clear now. The First Crusade effectively invented what we can tentatively call a Christian concept of holy war. The previous sentence was about the situation with Christianity BEFORE 1095. I am not arguing for the nonexistence of Christian holy war AFTER 1095.

I am not arguing for any sort of dramatic changes in this area, apart from to add more nuance, flavour and narrative to the emergence of the Crusades in CK3. Despite the very welcome efforts of Holy Fury, Crusades in CK2 lack sufficient depth and complexity. And whilst I'm talking about religion - could you please inform the court chaplains of your vassals that they absolutely would not dare burning a porphyrogenita alive for being a 'heretic'? The consequences of doing so would be fairly dire, which leads me neatly into...

6. War and Diplomacy: In this regard, CK2 has often made very good steps during its development at adding additional CB's that have basis in historical fact, but this is another area lacking depth and accuracy in CK2. Without giving you chapter and verse of my thesis (which was written on Byzantine diplomacy), I would like to point out that diplomacy was way more complex than war, peace, NAP or Alliance, as were the methods of securing diplomatic outcomes. Firstly, the 'clash of civilisations' Christian vs. Muslim nonsense needs to be thrown out again. There was plenty of scope for truces and advanced diplomacy between polities of conflicting faith - we have accounts of dozens of treaties between Byzantium and the caliphates. To use another example, the Emirate of Aleppo was turned into a Byzantine tributary state in 969, but often switched allegiances between Byzantium and the Fatimids and Buyids, depending on which polity could best serve its interests. We also have examples of Christian and Muslim states making arrangements to fight together. Pacts of various kinds should not be limited to marriage or familial relations. And on that note, interfaith marriages were absolutely not prohibited, although I do admit they often occurred in extreme political circumstances. There were a myriad of other actions which medieval states could do if they could afford it - paying one neighbour to attack another was fairly common, yet cannot happen in CK2. Other diplomatic actions include peaceful annexations of territory in exchange for money and titles for the former rulers of the territory (this was a Byzantine party-trick mostly), and interactions with religious institutions and leaders (not just the Pope either, other Churches possessed significant resources too). Linking back to point #2, one method of replenishing diminished populations was to encourage migration from another polity into your own lands and we have evidence of this taking place all across the Near East (it was one of the reasons why the area became so diverse in the first place). CK3 needs a better and more in depth diplomatic system than marry, pact, alliance.

7. Industry and general economy: Industry certainly played a part in the medieval world. Without access to metalworkers and craftsmen, you aren't going to be conquering anyone anytime soon. Furthermore, you won't be taking part in lucrative trade and the surprisingly well developed financial system of Byzantium and the caliphates without the ability to mint your own coins. I've already mentioned the glass working and it goes without saying that areas of industrial activity were of the first importance to medieval rulers, as was their growth and protection. I placed this one last because even though I wrote a paper on it (and a bloody good interdisciplinary paper at that, even though I do say so myself) its one I've put the least thought into. The basic gist is this: raw materials and the means to process their output should not be an afterthought. Certain regions in CK2 would be much more desirable if the riches of their earth were properly considered and a feature of the game, plus I feel that such 'strategic' considerations would actually make the game more fun and aid in progression. On the economy side of things, all I can offer for reasoning to make changes to the CK economic system is that the medieval pilgrimage of Musa I and the catastrophic effect it had on the local economies of the regions he passed through could never be replicated in CK2, despite the entire series of events underlining how wrong traditional viewpoints of the simplicity of the medieval fiscal system are.

That's it for now. I've got loads more to say but I don't want to drive off the last of the stalwarts who actually read this post top to bottom. I'd like to strongly reiterate that this post was not made to antagonise anyone, nor to chastise the hardworking and passionate CK3 game dev team. I still have plenty of fun in CK2 (1125 hours does not lie) and will continue to do so despite my professional and academic disagreements with the abstraction of the medieval world as represented in CK2. I'd also like to state that despite modding experience under my belt, I am not a game designer, and I recognise that for the sake of enjoyment, sacrifices have to be made. I wish the CK3 team the best of luck.
 
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CK2 is a fantastic game that I still play a lot. However, it annoys me deeply more than most other games in my library do, simply because of the sacrifices it makes for playability - accuracy often goes out the window. With that in mind, I'm going to make a (fairly long post sadly) about what we know of the medieval world and forward several ideas about how these thoughts could possibly make their way into CK3. You are warned, this is a LONG post.
This is an interesting post, but for the most part it glosses over the question of how to make CK more realistic while also improving game play. It also glosses over the reality that many of the decisions you criticize were made as compromises to make more areas of the game playable without introducing completely new internal mechanics (e.g. the semi-feudal mechanics of the ERE).

If you want a higher chance of your ideas being used to improve CK3, you may want to be more specific about how things could be implemented so that they’d be both fun and realistic. :)
 
Interesting text. I am very concerned with the non-feudalness of the ERE as it's my favorite place to play and I previously wrote in a suggestion thread how a non-landowning based system could work in the game (among other stuff). Do you think it would well represent the empire?

It's in the last part:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ck3-features-id-like-to-see-in-it.1160370/

I'll have another look at your post tomorrow before I write my idea for a historically-faithful CK3 implementation of Byzantium. There's some good stuff in there though that might work really well as a generic-bureaucracy system for the other polities in the game that also do not adhere to the (academically-suspect) concept of feudalism. Authority seems to be valid concept that could really work well for Byzantium; office-holders increased their personal power through serving the state, which gave them more control over the state (sometimes enough to rival the emperor), like Basileios Lekapenos. I'll sleep on it, but thanks for making me aware of your own efforts in this regard!

This is an interesting post, but for the most part it glosses over the question of how to make CK more realistic while also improving game play. It also glosses over the reality that many of the decisions you criticize were made as compromises to make more areas of the game playable without introducing completely new internal mechanics (e.g. the semi-feudal mechanics of the ERE).

If you want a higher chance of your ideas being used to improve CK3, you may want to be more specific about how things could be implemented so that they’d be both fun and realistic. :)

I am well aware of this - I note in the post that these are academic points and I haven't put much thought into how they would work. The only exception to this (currently) is Byzantium, and I'll soon make a post in this thread about a CK3 implementation of the ERE.
 
Honestly, I think Paradox would benefit a great deal if they hired a few academic historians as consultants when developing their games.
 
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1. Titulature
This. There are several cases where the ruler of the same rank received homage and fealty from the ruler of the same rank. E.g. the Treaty of Falaise made Henry II of England the overlord of William the Lion, which the English monarch remained until Richard the Lionheart sold William back Scotland's sovereignty.
 
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This. There are several cases where the ruler of the same rank received homage and fealty from the ruler of the same rank. E.g. the Treaty of Falaise made Henry II of England the overlord of William the Lion, which the English monarch remained until Richard the Lionheart sold William back Scotland's sovereignty.
You can already do this in CK II though, with the tributary CB.
 
You can already do this in CK II though, with the tributary CB.
What do you make of this?

When therefore all were assembled in the church of St. Peter of York, William king of Scotland commanded the bishops and earls and barons of his land to do allegiance and fealty and homage to Henry, king of England, son of Matilda the empress, and to king Henry, his son ; and so it was done. And first the king of Scotland himself and David his brother became there the vassals of the foresaid king for all their holdings ; and expressly for Scotland and Galloway. And touching the sacred Evangels, they swore to him fealty and allegiance against all men ; and afterwards became the vassals of the king his son, and swore to him fealty, saving fealty to his father.

William was forced to swear an oath of loyalty to Henry as an overlord, "holding" Scotland as his vassal. Such was the feudal system that his oath bound every Scot, making each one of a feudal servant of the King of England.

On 8 December, after taking council from the nobles and prelates of his kingdom, William accepted this 'Treaty of Falaise' and gave his liege homage to Henry II for Scotia and all his other lands, promising that the homage and fealty of the lay nobility and the fealty of the clergy would be given to the English kings as their liege lord, also promising to delivers royal fortresses of Lothian into English keeping as security.
Tributary state isn't what I'm getting.
 
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war was simply too risky to undertake for anything other than a political, pragmatic reason
the crusades generally were conducted pragmatically but that doesnt mean it was conducted for pragmatic reasons. there was nothing particularly pragmatic or rational about the crusades from the christian perspective. alexios asked for help recovering the anatolia but urban and the latins made it about recovering the distant and isolated levant. the whole thing was hugely expensive, unprofitable, and dangerous.

obviously, it would be great to have some complexities in the game like factions taking advantage of holy wars for personal gain and allying with the heretics against their own political opponents. but thats different from saying that the crusades werent technically spiritual wars because they werent all out conflicts. if thats the case, then jihads, which you hold as the gold standard, wouldnt qualify either. classical jurists had maintained that there must be only temporary truces between 'the house of peace' and 'the house of war.' and yet by the late 11th century, muslims in the east had been ignoring this supposed scriptural duty for over a century. conflicts with the byz empire, for example, were just political businesses of the seljuks, while muslims and christians in the region had long established a working understanding.
 
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I read it from top to bottom - challenge met. ;)

Nice post @ScarecrowKrone. Well argued and detailed.
Thanks, this makes it worth it!

the crusades generally were conducted pragmatically but that doesnt mean it was conducted for pragmatic reasons. there was nothing particularly pragmatic or rational about the crusades from the christian perspective. alexios asked for help recovering the anatolia but urban and the latins made it about recovering the distant and isolated levant. the whole thing was hugely expensive, unprofitable, and dangerous.

obviously, it would be great to have some complexities in the game like factions taking advantage of holy wars for personal gain and allying with the heretics against their own political opponents. but thats different from saying that the crusades werent technically spiritual wars because they werent all out conflicts. if thats the case, then jihads, which you hold as the gold standard, wouldnt qualify either. classical jurists had maintained that there must be only temporary truces between 'the house of peace' and 'the house of war.' and yet by the late 11th century, muslims in the east had been ignoring this supposed scriptural duty for over a century. conflicts with the byz empire, for example, were just political businesses of the seljuks, while muslims and christians in the region had long established a working understanding.

I don't define holy war as "all out war". Holy wars are, as I said, wars which were fought over the religious differences of the participants. Addressing the second part of your post, the duty of jihad can be both internal and external jihad, and external is further subdivided into 'by the sword' and 'by debate' - jihad did not have to be wars against the infidel and could in fact also be wars over the 'orthodoxy' of other Islamic polities - there should really be an expanded jihad option in CK3 that represents both sides of the duty. But, you are correct in stating the early medieval Islamic tradition only allowed for truces against the infidel for a limited time only. Interestingly though, perpetual truces with Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians were possible if the aforementioned peoples had accepted either the spiritual or political supremacy of the caliphate. It was quite possible for Christian polities to live at peace with the caliphates if they were under the political authority of the caliph - tributary state CB doesn't really represent the level to which caliphs expected subordination. We have an account of a Byzantine embassy to the Fatimid caliph al-Mu'izz in 958, which demonstrates that the tribute the Byzantines were paying to the Fatimids at the time did not make the Byzantines politically subordinate to the Fatimids (in the view of al-Mu'izz) and therefore al-Mu'izz could not not be at peace with the Byzantines.

Please do say more. People who don't want to read can easily find another thread, but others like myself would love to learn as much as possible.
If you ask, you shall receive. Is there anything you'd like me to talk about, or should I just shoot off more ideas and research?
 
there is no 'clash of civilisations' narrative - any argument for one simply does not hold water. Christians fought other Christians as well as Muslims and vice versa
im not sure how this doesnt equate with all out war between christians and muslims.
Holy wars are, as I said, wars which were fought over the religious differences of the participants.
im also still unsure as to why the crusades didnt fit this definition.

as for the jihad thing, the long and short of it is that, if you use the muslim conquests to define holy war as a "fully-fledged scriptural duty" "beyond rhetoric and propaganda" then not even jihad itself can fit this description.
 
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If you ask, you shall receive. Is there anything you'd like me to talk about, or should I just shoot off more ideas and research?

Anything you like is fine with me. As for suggestions, if your focus is Byzantine diplomacy, how about starting there?

Any good references you would recommend for Byzantium in general?
 
Very interesting post and your raise several good points particularly with regards to the so called feudal structures represented in the game which has long since been disregarded as a gross oversimplification by medievalists. Likewise with the issue of trade and economic systems, I do hope this is something which is developed significantly in CK3 along with a more comprehensive naval system.

It's been a few years since I completed my degree in medieval history so maybe I'm out of touch with the latest academia but I wouldn't say that the debate on whether the crusades were a 'holy war' is quite as clear cut as you would imply here. It was always my understanding that there was no consensus on the definition of what constitutes a holy war, and whether the prerequisite is in fact a primary theological issue of supremacy or wether the mere trappings and justification of religious conflict for political and economic interests may also constitute this. When contemporary understanding of these conflicts appear so multifaceted and diverse I personally belive it is impossible to apply a comprehensive modern definition onto these.

To me what remains significant is what motivated actors to undertake their roles in these conflicts as much as those who initiated them. There of course were many who joined these conflicts for financial or political betterment, hence the predominance of younger sons from the nobility, however there does remain substantial evidence of significant numbers, at all levels of society, undertaking this for spiritual or theological purposes. We shouldn't necessarily get too caught up in what motivated the leaders of these events as much as what led to them resonating with both the military aristocracy and the agrarian peasantry in Western and Central Europe. However what impact if any this would ever have on game design I really could not say!

I think the biggest failing of CK2 in depicting the crusades, and conflicts in the middle ages in general, is indicating that these were clearly defined periods of conflict, rather than a near perennial exercise of hostility with varying degrees of intensity and only a rough semblance of centralised control or clear objective. With military power being the raison d'etre for the political predominance of landed aristocracy the western medieval state, such as it was, was reliant upon semi-permanent conflict at almost every level to justify its existence and to effectively function.

I do hope to see some big steps forward with CK3 in how acuratly it represent the middle ages, I honestly believe a more faithful recreation of the political structures of the time and a more complex diplomatic and economic model would make for far more engaging gameplay and lead to better emergent outcomes than CK2s reliance on rather absurd fantasy stories.
 
I am just going to support renaming Byzantium to Romania/Rhomania. The same thing should probably be done to the Latin Empire if it forms.
I think Basileia Rhomaion works best as an accurate name, indicator of how they saw themselves and not causing confusion with the earlier form of the Roman empire. Eastern Roman Empire works also though.
In fact, ideally have it use a dynamic localisation so its name in various events etc depends on who is seeing it, so Catholic lords see ‘Greek Empire’, etc.
 
I agree with you about everything you wrote and would love to see new mechanics in CK3 to model those things.

I'm going to add 2 things however:
  • Historically, the "rank system" of feudalism was a mess. You rightfully proposed a legitimacy mechanic and an overldship mechanic for equal ranked lords, but I would go one step further. Before the Hundred Years War, the english kings were also, thanks to inheritance, dukes of Aquitaine. As kings of England they were independent, but as duke of Aquitaine they were supposed to pledge loyalty to french kings (and actually did for a while). Later on, during the different conflicts and phases that made up the Hundread Years War, many powerful vassal of the king of France started playing both sides, trying to become de facto independent and carve out their own sphere of influence, with or without directly fighting their previous overlord. Think about the duchy of Brittany or, later on, the infamous dukes of Burgundy. So we need something more: a dinamic system where title ranks are just an hint, with a different mechanic reflecting how much a lord is willing to aknowledge someone as its overlord and, more importantly, pay taxes to him and answer his call to arms. Basically I want to be able to swore fealthy to two kings and, with proper political moves, inflames one against the other so they will fight each other giving me time to pursue my personal goals.
  • CB and peace negotiations seems a bit limited to me. Why not make it possible to claim everything once you completely beat your opponent while giving proper drawbacks? If you are a christian lord fighting against an other christian lord, taking a lot of lands to which you don't have any rightful claim should really upset everyone around you: your overlord(s) or other indipendent lords as appropriate. Even your vassals may be upset and so anyone willing to mantain the status quo. On the other hand, you should be able to take half of France as a viking just because you sieged it out, but have real troubles administering it (not those weak rebels), just because, simply put, you don't have enough capable and loyal men compared to the population you just subjugated.
 
Absolutely brilliant post. I do hope Paradox takes inspiration from posts such as these to help guide mechanics they introduce into CK3.
Without giving you chapter and verse of my thesis (which was written on Byzantine diplomacy)
My, that'd be a fascinating paper to read! The lack of diplomatic options in CK2 is a large part of why I've strayed from playing much as the Byzantines, who relied so heavily upon diplomacy for their long survival.
 
It was always my understanding that there was no consensus on the definition of what constitutes a holy war
my understanding about the current debate regarding the nature of the crusades is what exactly had urban intended the first one to be and how the whole thing evolved over time. no recent author debates whether the crusaders were mainly motivated by spiritual reasons. duby's younger sons theory is well and truly dead.
. We shouldn't necessarily get too caught up in what motivated the leaders of these events as much as what led to them resonating with both the military aristocracy and the agrarian peasantry in Western and Central Europe.
the first crusade was a part of the spiritual renewal process that had taken place across europe since the 10th century, which was also responsible for the monastic and investiture reforms.