A few ideas about CK3 - a historian's insight

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This is the last time I shall respond to your frankly embarrassing attempts to make historical arguments. You've cited nothing, you've offered nothing, and you continually take the work of Kaldellis out of context and refuse to accept what is on paper. Let me fix this for you one more time, then you'll be so kind as to stop derailing a thread ostensibly about CK3.

except the crusade indulgences had also always been accompanied with a revelation about the religious differences between the faithfuls and the heretics by the pope. religious differences had always been spelled out in capital letters to those who took the cross. i dont have asbridge handy but this sounds suspiciously like what you did with, well, everyone else, that is, using a different argument to apply an extremely narrow definition.
I am citing Jonathan Riley-Smith. I am citing Jonathan Phillips. I am citing Matthew Gabriele and John Haldon. I'm probably citing even more here too. No one denies Pope Urban II's address was an expliticly Christian call-to-arms against the "pagans". But did you know that 'taking the cross' could be commuted for money, and in fact it was prevalent across the thirteenth century? If religious differences had been the only justification for crusading, do you not think that the Church would have taken a dim view of this practice? The fact it didn't attests to the religious element being subordinate to other concerns. Would you like to see the text of a late crusader vow?
In the name of God Amen. Endowed with such fiery devotion for the sins of his nation, he made a vow to the Lord to visit the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. Should he be prevented from fulfilling his promise in person, he will undertake to send another in his place. He has undertaken to do this personally at the next passage to the Holy Land proclaimed by the holy Roman See. The rural dean has therefore conferred the Cross on him with the proper and customary ceremony.
The text was in Latin, I have provided a decent translation. Do you see any mention of killing Muslims, for fighting for religious differences, or fighting at all? No you don't, because crusader vows tended to be vague because the crusaders did not want to be fettered in such a way. As you will remember from Frankopan, the First Crusade vows made to Alexios I were quite specific, which possibly explains why the Western crusaders were averse to making these vows. Yet we are quite confident that these men made vows to ecclesiastical figures in order to receive the Cross without any problem at all, which leads us to one conclusion - the vows crusaders had made about committing to a faith-based war were just as vague as the one I have provided. Historians cannot fathom what someone thought all those years ago; we can only use the available evidence to explain the past, and when it comes to Crusades, the idea that the Latins went to war purely for the purpose of slaughtering Muslims is laughable and unsupported by a wide range of sources.

these social sciences clearly do not include history, because the author mentions explicitly that "Yet Byzantine Studies has not fully made the transition to this postwar model. I will mention two reasons for this failure." and unless you want to query on the contextual definition of 'mention' v 'claim,' i think it's clear here that the guy is arguing about the multiethnicity of rome.
I literally do not know what to say here. I am unable to respond to such utter drivel. The author is lamenting that Byzantine Studies has struggled to accept what the rest of the field of history has, can't you see that? He mentions the Etruscans and the Carians were assimilated into Rome, and thus became Romans! Either way these groups were gone by the time the Western Empire collapsed to leave the ERE. And, if once again you'd read the book, you'd know that it embraces a theory of race that is not deterministic - your ancestry does not determine your ethnicity. The only way you could read that particular paragraph and come out thinking that the Byzantine Empire was multiethnic is if you believe in racial determinism. I do not, the humanities does not and Kaldellis certainly does not either.

93 on is about how romaness in byz wasnt a concept from the top down, some queries about what constitutes official definition, then some more about roman nationalism. 239 on is about ethnic revolts. the only noteworthy thing about all of this is the amusing passing mention of robert guicard being a terrorist.
First off, I said 229-232, not 239. Secondly, you and I are not reading the same book, if of course I suppose you aren't flat out lying. Since you have trouble locating words on a page, I'll find them for you:
"Romania was, then, a territory, a jurisdiction, a state named after a people, and an abstract national identity that had needs and honour; it was something to be defended and on whose behalf one might toil and labour. If it existed in modern times, we would have no difficulty in identifying it as a nation-state." - p.92
"The vast majority of the subjects of Romania were Romans. Even those subjects of Romania who were described as ethnically different - primarily Slavs and Armenians at this time - were not subject to special legal regimes, especially if they were Orthodox, as most of them seem to have been. Members of these minorities could rise to the top, so long as they learned Greek and were Orthodox, but this brought them to the verge of becoming Romans themselves." - p.231
"This requires that we recognise the Romans as a group distinct from rest, as in fact they are consistently presented in all the sources, both Byzantine and foreign. It also requires that discard notions of immutable ethnicity, or race, which retain a hold on Byzantine Studies due to the claims pressed by nationalist schools of historiography and the field's own unreconstructed view of ethnicity, which predates the mid-twentieth century." - p.272

why do you think i quoted the author to explain his view? my assumption is that we both know what the author view is. i quoted the author to mock his argument, which i have explained since the post before.
Mockery is not a form of argument. Unless you can produce source evidence of your position (can you actually define your position?) then all you are doing is making a lot of pointless noise.
 
In regard to #7, I'd be in favor of certain regions having important resources, but I do not wish to spend too much time managing the economy. I would prefer it if these resources came in the form of a passive bonus, such as extra income, a reduced cost of hiring specific troops, or various combat bonuses. I imagine medieval monarchs were happy to take advantage of resources, but did not invest too much time personally micromanaging the economy.

That said, CK2 did lack interesting peace time mechanics. You spend most of the time either fighting wars or waiting for interesting things to happen (claim fabrication, plots, or just random event chains). So I wouldn't be opposed to making the economy somewhat deeper for those that wish to venture into it. It's really a matter of finding the right balance.

Otherwise I found the OP and the debate that unfolded highly interesting and will keep an eye on the thread.
 
You've cited nothing, you've offered nothing
you were the one offered an original definition of holy wars. i only questioned its validity. and you think the burden of proof should fall on me because of what exactly? if you want you can ask for the sources of any particular claim. you, on the other hand, instead of citing an author's argument, you cited instead the argument as it was used in your paper. and this is acceptable behavior?
But did you know that 'taking the cross' could be commuted for money, and in fact it was prevalent across the thirteenth century?
it was a way for noncombatants to earn remission and contribute to the effort. for the umpteenth time, a holy war isnt an endeavor in which every fiber of its participants must commit directly to the purpose of bloodshed.
Do you see any mention of killing Muslims, for fighting for religious differences, or fighting at all?
the underlying theoretical mechanic of the crusades is that of the pilgrimage, hence the vow. the crusades werent about just literally making your way to the holy land with some kind of cross either.
Historians cannot fathom what someone thought all those years ago; we can only use the available evidence to explain the past, and when it comes to Crusades, the idea that the Latins went to war purely for the purpose of slaughtering Muslims is laughable and unsupported by a wide range of sources.
said the person who took vows extremely literally while ignoring the sheer fact of how difficult, unprofitable, and dangerous slaughtering infidels in the holy land actually was and yet the endeavor was still carried out anyway.
The author is lamenting that Byzantine Studies has struggled to accept what the rest of the field of history has, can't you see that?
like literally lamenting, with sad face and everything, or is the author making an argument in the form of claiming to be lamenting? he uses the fact that the practice is well established outside the field to argue the backwardness of the status quo. so again, it's an argument.
He mentions the Etruscans and the Carians were assimilated into Rome, and thus became Romans! Either way these groups were gone by the time the Western Empire collapsed to leave the ERE.
you are arguing over semantics. if one uses conventional terminology, the argument is that rome was multiethnic, which justifies the greek being really romans. if you use the author's terminology, the same argument is that there is one roman ethnicity, with greek and others being the races of this.
And, if once again you'd read the book, you'd know that it embraces a theory of race that is not deterministic - your ancestry does not determine your ethnicity.
there is a difference between accepting an understanding and adopting it as an actual practice in a discipline. everyone can agreed that periodization is entirely ahistorical, but people needed them anyway out of necessity. the same thing with lineages. it's easy to see how mutable and arbitrary ethnic identities are, but people need something to quickly refer to groups of people. sometimes language and lineage are not necessarily right but practical way to accomplish this. kaldellis himself has to use terms like german and etruscans and carians to describe people right next to saying that these were just phases.
Mockery is not a form of argument.
i never said it is. im also not under the understanding that you can only make one or another. and since you seem take so much offense at mockery. maybe you should not phrase your sentence as "the idea that the Latins went to war purely for the purpose of slaughtering Muslims is laughable."
can you actually define your position?
historical contemporaries like louis ii had had an intuitive awareness of the conventional or nationalist view of ethnicity, according to which the byzs were not or not entirely romans (like the latin romans). if you follow this conventional view, byz then was an observable and observed departure from classical rome. if you follow roman selfconception interpretation then this departure was meaningless, or there was no departure. thats all there is to it. it is precisely because there is no way to objectively define the roman identity, that the romans' own self-conception is no more valid than any other system of interpretation.
 
It's time to return this thread to its original purpose - discussing historical accuracy and CK3. I've put a lot of thought into this recently, and I'm afraid to say that it is not possible to fully and accurately represent Byzantium’s imperial system in CK2, so I highly doubt it will be in CK3. The emphasis on dynasty and landholding is completely alien to how the theme system worked. It would be rather pointless for the player to be a strategos when their command could be taken away from them at any time and the player’s children don’t get to inherit anything. Unless CK3 implements a method of playing as a ‘landless’ character and gives them something to do (a deeper political system for example) there is no point in me proposing ideas based around historical accuracy. What I will do instead however, is talk about Byzantine diplomacy.

Byzantine diplomacy was the great triumph of the empire that, as John Haldon puts it, "would not die." The reason why it endured despite being surrounded by enemies for most of its existence was because, completely against traditional understanding of Byzantine society, the medieval Romans were pragmatic people, who despite enshrining much of their politics in extravagant and ostentatious displays of wealth and piety, had a good understanding of how to influence their neighbours. The survival of the empire was the foremost duty of the basileus and as a result other concerns that could normally be expected to impede the conduct of diplomacy between Byzantium and its neighbours never seemed to do so. I'll start by focusing on the ceremonial aspects of Byzantine diplomacy.

As communicated to us by several sources, including the supremely important Book of Ceremonies, a tenth-century compilation work of Konstantinos VII Porphyrogennetos (reigned as sole emperor from 945-959, reigned as junior emperor to several partners since 913), the Byzantine court ceremonial was, to any modern observer, completely ludicrous. Consider this tenth century account of the Frankish ambassador Liudprand of Cremona, who was received by the emperor Konstantinos VII in the year 949:
"In front of the emperor’s throne there stood a certain tree of gilt bronze, whose branches, similarly gilt bronze, were filled with birds of different sizes, which emitted the songs of the different birds corresponding to their species. The throne of the emperor was built with skill in such a way that at one instant it was low, then higher, and quickly it appeared most lofty; and lions of immense size (though it was unclear if they were of wood or brass, they certainly were coated with gold) seemed to guard him, and, striking the ground with their tails, they emitted a roar with mouths open and tongues flickering. Leaning on the shoulders of two eunuchs, I was led into this space, before the emperor’s presence. And when, upon my entry, the lions emitted their roar and the birds called out, each according to its species."

The Throne of Solomon, as it was called, was able to be mechanically raised in order to impress upon any visitor, through the use of physical space, the power and majesty of the imperial personage. Beyond that, it seems during the initial reception at least, that the emperor was rendered completely inaccessible to visitors in order to emphasise that all who came before the emperor during a reception were inferior and subject to the emperor. During the ninth century, the Muslim ambassador Nasr ibn al-Azhar visited the emperor Michael III (r. 842-867) and was received in a similar fashion, although Ibn al-Azhar adds the following:
“The emperor was on a platform, and the patricians were standing around him. I saluted him and was seated at the edge of the great platform. I displayed the gifts before him. The emperor had an interpreter in front of him... The emperor accepted my gifts and my offer of a reciprocal oath. The uncle of the emperor took the oath instead of Michael… I did not hear Michael speak a word from my first appearance in Byzantine territory until I left. Only the interpreter spoke, the emperor moving his head to signify yes or no. He never spoke.”

In addition to being both elevated physically and inaccessible conversationally, the emperor also expected that guests to his presence perform proskynesis. This is an extreme form of personal abasement that involves full-body prostration, nose to the floor, before the emperor. Liudprand admits to performing it, but Muslim envoys were very uncomfortable with having to do so, arguing that they only went on their knees in such a way before Allah. In fact, in a humorous episode from the ninth century, the ambassador of Abd ar-Rahman II (r. 822-852), a certain Al-Ghazal, refused to perform proskynesis in front of the emperor Theophilos (r. 829-842). The Byzantines resorted to walling up the top portion of the entryway into the reception hall - forcing Al-Ghazal to stoop when he entered which would have been enough of an (unwilling) act of prostration to satisfy the court. Al-Ghazal, realising the trick, laid down and crawled in backwards, entering arse-first into the imperial presence. We do have enough snippets of evidence to surmise however, that by the tenth century Muslim ambassadors did perform proskynesis at the imperial court. So, I want you imagine the effect that the court had on an ambassador. You are led into the presence of the emperor, who never speaks directly to you and is seated high above you, whilst you are forced to lie face down on the ground at their feet with the entire court looking on at your ritualised humiliation. It should be self-evident that such an elaborately stage-managed performance is likely to be exceptionally useful in the negotiations that were to come. The outcome of such ceremony was, I believe, to project the power, wealth and majesty of the Roman state to the ambassador, who will carry this news home to their masters, and tell them all about the incomparable nature of the Byzantines. Of course, it was all a performance, but a performance intended to impress upon the diplomatic partners of Byzantium that their interests were best served by remaining at peace with an empire wealthy enough to host such a reception and advanced enough to create automata.

An example of where demonstrations of wealth come in handy during diplomatic relationships can be found during the reign of Romanos I Lekapenos (r. 920-944). The Bulgarians under Simeon I had been greatly successful militarily against the Byzantines, and now Simeon I set his eyes on Constantinople - taking the city would guarantee final victory and ensure his claim to be Roman emperor was recognised, but he could not siege the city without naval forces of his own. So, Simeon I sent overtures to the Fatimid caliph al-Mahdi (r. 909-934) during the 920's, requesting an alliance where al-Mahdi provided the Fatimid navy and they split the wealth of Constantinople between them. Al-Mahdi agreed and sent his ambassadors back with the Bulgarian envoys. However, the ship carrying the diplomatic party was intercepted by the Byzantines off the coast of Calabria, and they were sent to Constantinople. Romanos I imprisoned the Bulgarians, but freed the Fatimids, hosting them graciously, apologising for the their treatment and sending them back to al-Mahdi with some truly exceptional gifts and tribute, with instructions to tell al-Mahdi that "this was the way the Roman emperors knew how to reward their enemies." Al-Mahdi realised that it was more advantageous to remain at peace with the Romans, and was reportedly so ingratiated by Romanos I's behaviour that he halved the annual tribute that the Byzantines were paying to the Fatimids for peace in southern Italy. The alliance between Simeon I and al-Mahdi did not go ahead, and Simeon I died with his dreams of becoming emperor unfulfilled.

Next post shall be about Byzantine diplomatic strategies and methodologies outside of throwing their money and drama school training around.
 
It's time to return this thread to its original purpose - discussing historical accuracy and CK3. I've put a lot of thought into this recently, and I'm afraid to say that it is not possible to fully and accurately represent Byzantium’s imperial system in CK2, so I highly doubt it will be in CK3. The emphasis on dynasty and landholding is completely alien to how the theme system worked. It would be rather pointless for the player to be a strategos when their command could be taken away from them at any time and the player’s children don’t get to inherit anything. Unless CK3 implements a method of playing as a ‘landless’ character and gives them something to do (a deeper political system for example) there is no point in me proposing ideas based around historical accuracy. What I will do instead however, is talk about Byzantine diplomacy.

Byzantine diplomacy was the great triumph of the empire that, as John Haldon puts it, "would not die." The reason why it endured despite being surrounded by enemies for most of its existence was because, completely against traditional understanding of Byzantine society, the medieval Romans were pragmatic people, who despite enshrining much of their politics in extravagant and ostentatious displays of wealth and piety, had a good understanding of how to influence their neighbours. The survival of the empire was the foremost duty of the basileus and as a result other concerns that could normally be expected to impede the conduct of diplomacy between Byzantium and its neighbours never seemed to do so. I'll start by focusing on the ceremonial aspects of Byzantine diplomacy.

As communicated to us by several sources, including the supremely important Book of Ceremonies, a tenth-century compilation work of Konstantinos VII Porphyrogennetos (reigned as sole emperor from 945-959, reigned as junior emperor to several partners since 913), the Byzantine court ceremonial was, to any modern observer, completely ludicrous. Consider this tenth century account of the Frankish ambassador Liudprand of Cremona, who was received by the emperor Konstantinos VII in the year 949:


The Throne of Solomon, as it was called, was able to be mechanically raised in order to impress upon any visitor, through the use of physical space, the power and majesty of the imperial personage. Beyond that, it seems during the initial reception at least, that the emperor was rendered completely inaccessible to visitors in order to emphasise that all who came before the emperor during a reception were inferior and subject to the emperor. During the ninth century, the Muslim ambassador Nasr ibn al-Azhar visited the emperor Michael III (r. 842-867) and was received in a similar fashion, although Ibn al-Azhar adds the following:


In addition to being both elevated physically and inaccessible conversationally, the emperor also expected that guests to his presence perform proskynesis. This is an extreme form of personal abasement that involves full-body prostration, nose to the floor, before the emperor. Liudprand admits to performing it, but Muslim envoys were very uncomfortable with having to do so, arguing that they only went on their knees in such a way before Allah. In fact, in a humorous episode from the ninth century, the ambassador of Abd ar-Rahman II (r. 822-852), a certain Al-Ghazal, refused to perform proskynesis in front of the emperor Theophilos (r. 829-842). The Byzantines resorted to walling up the top portion of the entryway into the reception hall - forcing Al-Ghazal to stoop when he entered which would have been enough of an (unwilling) act of prostration to satisfy the court. Al-Ghazal, realising the trick, laid down and crawled in backwards, entering arse-first into the imperial presence. We do have enough snippets of evidence to surmise however, that by the tenth century Muslim ambassadors did perform proskynesis at the imperial court. So, I want you imagine the effect that the court had on an ambassador. You are led into the presence of the emperor, who never speaks directly to you and is seated high above you, whilst you are forced to lie face down on the ground at their feet with the entire court looking on at your ritualised humiliation. It should be self-evident that such an elaborately stage-managed performance is likely to be exceptionally useful in the negotiations that were to come. The outcome of such ceremony was, I believe, to project the power, wealth and majesty of the Roman state to the ambassador, who will carry this news home to their masters, and tell them all about the incomparable nature of the Byzantines. Of course, it was all a performance, but a performance intended to impress upon the diplomatic partners of Byzantium that their interests were best served by remaining at peace with an empire wealthy enough to host such a reception and advanced enough to create automata.

An example of where demonstrations of wealth come in handy during diplomatic relationships can be found during the reign of Romanos I Lekapenos (r. 920-944). The Bulgarians under Simeon I had been greatly successful militarily against the Byzantines, and now Simeon I set his eyes on Constantinople - taking the city would guarantee final victory and ensure his claim to be Roman emperor was recognised, but he could not siege the city without naval forces of his own. So, Simeon I sent overtures to the Fatimid caliph al-Mahdi (r. 909-934) during the 920's, requesting an alliance where al-Mahdi provided the Fatimid navy and they split the wealth of Constantinople between them. Al-Mahdi agreed and sent his ambassadors back with the Bulgarian envoys. However, the ship carrying the diplomatic party was intercepted by the Byzantines off the coast of Calabria, and they were sent to Constantinople. Romanos I imprisoned the Bulgarians, but freed the Fatimids, hosting them graciously, apologising for the their treatment and sending them back to al-Mahdi with some truly exceptional gifts and tribute, with instructions to tell al-Mahdi that "this was the way the Roman emperors knew how to reward their enemies." Al-Mahdi realised that it was more advantageous to remain at peace with the Romans, and was reportedly so ingratiated by Romanos I's behaviour that he halved the annual tribute that the Byzantines were paying to the Fatimids for peace in southern Italy. The alliance between Simeon I and al-Mahdi did not go ahead, and Simeon I died with his dreams of becoming emperor unfulfilled.

Next post shall be about Byzantine diplomatic strategies and methodologies outside of throwing their money and drama school training around.
You know, developing a bureaucratic government wouldn't be useful just for Byzantium, so be confident in making contributions, if you think they could be an inspiration.

When Jade dragon came out, some suggested to use a similar mechanic to the Chinese interaction and apply it to Byzantium. I guess any representation is better than no representation.

Playing inside or outside Byzantium didn't really have a special feeling, save if you were emperor yourself. Let's hope for a good Byzantium in ck3!
 
The fact of the matter is, there are already a lot of things here which would make fantastic additions to CK3, if only the developers would add it in. The simple device of having a ruler hold an audience with visitors would already open the possibility for interesting diplomatic and personal events in the game.

Imagine (if characters were actually location-based) visiting the Byzantine emperor and being led in for an audience, and getting a long, majestic popup describing the scene above. After that, you face a series of choices representing your marriage negotiations with the emperor. Do you prostrate yourself or not? Does the minister doing the translation happen to hate you and strategically mistranslate your words? Oh no, the entrance is walled up. Do you crawl under it? An idea occurs (if you are quick or genius): you could crawl in backwards. Which do you do? You've petitioned the emperor for years to get an audience, so you better not mess it up now. Did you bring the right gifts?

All of this sounds so much more interesting than simply writing a letter and getting back the message "I've considered your marriage offer. I accept." And it should take more work than that to marry into the Byzantine imperial family.
 
You know, developing a bureaucratic government wouldn't be useful just for Byzantium, so be confident in making contributions, if you think they could be an inspiration.

When Jade dragon came out, some suggested to use a similar mechanic to the Chinese interaction and apply it to Byzantium. I guess any representation is better than no representation.
Let's not forget, too, the Caliphate, which was bureaucratic in many respects as well! There would be great advantages to adding even just some aspects of bureaucracy into CK3.
 
CK2 is a fantastic game that I still play a lot. However, it annoys me deeply more than most other games in my library do, simply because of the sacrifices it makes for playability - accuracy often goes out the window. With that in mind, I'm going to make a (fairly long post sadly) about what we know of the medieval world and forward several ideas about how these thoughts could possibly make their way into CK3. You are warned, this is a LONG post.

I'd like to make three things clear from the outset. Firstly, I'm an academically trained medieval historian out of grad school - I do know what I'm talking about most of the time. Secondly, this post is not intended as either a critique of CK2, PDX or anything like that. I love CK2 and will keep playing it. Finally, I do not have any expectations of the CK3 development to implement any of these ideas. I am sure they will do a fantastic job and make a brilliant game. I'm making this post because I want to, and because I find the period fascinating.

1. Titulature: This is a big one. CK2 used a 'tier' system for titles which rewarded progression but is not accurate. To condense what would otherwise be an essay, the title which one uses is meaningless without the context. A man can call himself king but lacking legitimacy and recognition makes his claims pointless and hollow. CK3 should have some sort of legitimacy mechanic, which is dependent on things like dynastic lineage, church support and in some cases the support of the people as a result of their actions. Legitimacy should fluctuate through a reign and rulers with low legitimacy run the risk of rebellions, usurpations and vassals becoming independent. Furthermore, claiming a title should be more of a big deal than it currently is, especially since CK2 started with lands already 'de jure' which was often an oversimplification at best and inaccurate at worst - duchies weren't introduced in English titulature until 1337. Therefore, I propose a mechanic which makes titles more flexible and much more realistic - overlordship. Basically, the tier system is reworked to allow 'lords' to exert authority over other lords of the same 'rank' if said lords recognise the authority of the former - through war, dynastic seniority, economic strength and the like. Tributary states is a step in the right direction but is an oversimplification of how feudal lords interacted; it is a mistake to assume that there was a fixed hierarchy in the medieval world.

2. Population: The second big one. Right now, CK2 reduces population down to a common culture and religion per unit of land. I read the recent DD about how baronies are now separate packets of land - do they get their own ethnoreligious identity? What I'm getting at is diversity in population was a key factor in power dynamics, as well as simple numerical demographics. Wars and raids cause depopulation, depopulation reduces the available manpower of the territory and this metric decided the course of whole states. Byzantium's military strength was severely curtailed by the Arab conquests and the near-annual raids from the caliphates that came in the years that followed. As a result, Byzantium was highly cautious, mostly attempting to remain at peace with its neighbours through excellent diplomacy and only daring to fight battles it knew it could win. Losing men in large numbers was a disaster for Byzantium for two reasons: it could not afford to replace them and military loss was hugely damaging for the legitimacy of ruling emperors, who would often suffer unrest, rebellion and coups in the wake of a military defeat. When repopulating its eastern themata, Byzantium often had to rely on non-Roman populations such as Armenians, Georgians, Bulgarians and even Arabs (mostly converted of course). The difficulties in managing such populations was a significant factor in the inability of Byzantium to counter the Turkish invaders of the High Middle Ages. To use a western example, the Albigensian Crusade had little to do with enforcing orthodox faith on 'heretics'; it was more about reclaiming parts of 'France' from non-French peoples.

To use another example, the crusader states and crusading in general was not 'Christians vs. Muslims'. There was no clash of civilisation narrative, but more on that later. Recent scholarship has found that actually, Muslims fought on the side of the crusader states and Christians fought for the emirates throughout the entire Outremer period. This was not just in the form of mercenary troops, but rather the diversity of populations present in Syria and the Levant, which resulted in extreme difficulties in maintaining large enough numbers of troops for both the Fatimids and the Crusader states. In brief, sedentary societies (even in the medieval period) struggle to mobilise more than a few percent of its population, whereas nomadic societies maintain large percentages of their population under arms. In summary, there should be some sort of mechanic about population, influenced by governmental/social type directly affecting the number of available soldiers, and ways in which the player can increase the population of a region. Furthermore, the ethnoreligious diversity of peoples should be recognised in CK3 and have a real impact on the game. One more quick note, population should also have an effect on the wealth generation of sedentary societies. For example, more than 90% of wealth generation was from agrarian activity in Byzantium.

3. Byzantium/Romania: As a Byzantinist, this one consistently gets on my nerves. Pre-1204, Byzantium was absolutely not feudal in any way, shape or form. The bureaucratic government ran the apparatus of state through a series of offices and positions held by individuals who received salaries for doing so. Politically, all power was focused on the personage of the emperor and in a way, the state was highly dynamic. The strategoi of the themata did not 'own' the land they managed, and neither did the katepans or the doukes. They were often replaced or moved around to different commands. The argument that is often posited for 'feudalism' in the Byzantine Empire is the actions of the great dynatoi (powerful families) in acquiring lands. Whilst it is true that the accumulation of lands into the hands of a few families was a concern for emperors, it is not landholding that gave the dynatoi their power - in fact at the height of the theme system, lands were often organised into kouratoreia (imperial estates) and managed by imperial officials. Furthermore, lands that were reserved for the maintenance and provision of soldiers, the strateia, were inviolate by imperial decree and did not fall under the purview of landholding families. What the dynatoi were competing for, what gave them their power, were army commands such as that of the domestikos ton scholon (Domestic of the Schools, commanded the elite tagmata and often acted as commander-in-chief of the armed forces) and the droungarios tou ploimou (essentiallly Admiral of the Fleet). All the coups of the tenth century, successful and unsuccessful, originated from military officers; Romanos I Lekapenos was droungarios tou ploimou, and Nikephoros II Phokas, Bardas Skleros and Bardas Phokas all held the position of domestikos ton scholon when they launched their coup attempts. Ioannes I Tzimiskes also held successive army commands before his reign and was a well-respected career military officer when he murdered Nikephoros II Phokas. Essentially, this is a personal plea to the CK3 dev team - please do not make Byzantium a 'feudal' state when it absolutely wasn't. There are many ways to make Byzantium both realistic and interesting to play without making them entirely inaccurate; like I have alluded to, emperors faced their own challenges and power in Byzantium was much more fluid than in other medieval states. Feudal states did not have to contend with the possibility that lowborn men posed a direct threat to the ruling dynasty, yet within sixty years in Byzantium, the ruling dynasty changed from Amorian to Macedonian to Lekapenos; both Basileios I and Romanos I were born to peasant families. Oh, and we should all stop referring to it as the Byzantine Empire when it was called Romania by its people, but even the field of Byzantine Studies recognises that some things are too ingrained and will probably be happy to make this concession for the sake of convenience once we've stopped arguing about it.

4. Trade: Trade was a key source for revenue for many, not just merchant republics. It was also much more developed in the medieval period than conventional views of the era might assume. Wars were fought over trade revenues, cities sprung up around the wealth of trade routes and faded when trade moved elsewhere. A good example of this is Antioch. A valuable city to Christianity in Late Antiquity for both its trade revenues and its spiritual significance, it was less relevant to the caliphates which used Aleppo and Damascus as trading hubs instead. When the Mongols pressed into the Levant, trading routes were pushed so far away that Antioch, further reduced by the collapse of Crusader power, faded to obscurity and was never repopulated. (Whilst I'm talking about Antioch, it was made further irrelevant to the caliphates because governing a majority-Christian city close to the Byzantine frontier was too much effort, linking back to number #2). Secondly, major trade routes did not just 'stop' in the East either - the Silk Road was more a concept than a physical land route too, since significant proportions of the Silk Road trade came up via ships and only travelled a small proportion of their overall distance from their 'source' on land. In fact, major established trade routes criss-crossed the medieval world and exploiting their wealth/controlling their revenues was a priority for many medieval rulers. The majority of glass in the British Isles pre-early eleventh century (when Anglo-Scandinavian craftsmen began to manufacture indigenous glass, although admittedly a lot of it was remelted Roman glass with extra lead) originated from the great glass workshops of Syria, Egypt and the Levant. There is evidence of Byzantine trade activity from Ireland to Mali to the Swahili coast to Sri Lanka and China. The medieval world was much more interconnected and global than we ever thought and we are finding more evidence of this all the time - trade should be much more important across the entire CK3 map than it currently is in CK2. In retrospect, I should have put this point much higher up in this list.

5. Crusading and Holy Wars: Just a few notes on the historical accuracy of these terms and their associated concepts. Modern scholarship now understands the Crusades very differently. As previously mentioned, there is no 'clash of civilisations' narrative - any argument for one simply does not hold water. Christians fought other Christians as well as Muslims and vice versa. In reference to the First Crusade and therefore the invention of crusading, it came about as part of a seriously complex and unique set of political and religious circumstances in both the East and the West - Alexios I Komnenos appealed to (the politically weakest) one of the two Popes for military aid, knowing that a religious leader stood a better chance at uniting the squabbling feudal lords than any of the aforementioned lords did. It was Alexios I's choice to wrap his plea in religious rhetoric. It was the Pope Urban II's decision to amplify this rhetoric as a casus belli and make spiritual promises for participants. Without these events taking place in the order that they did we would probably have never seen a single 'Crusade' occur. If the Romans had been able to defeat the Turks themselves, we may not have even seen Alexios Komnenos on the Byzantine throne to ask for help in the first place. These events invented Crusading as we know it. Up until then, my own research and that of other scholars indicates quite strongly that a Christian concept of 'holy war' to match that of the fully-fledged scriptural duty of Islamic jihad never developed beyond that of rhetoric and propaganda - war was simply too risky to undertake for anything other than a political, pragmatic reason. Holy wars in general are defined by the proof that the religious difference of any given enemy was the primary cause for justifying and resorting to war against an enemy irrespective of either social or political pressures and imperatives - to my knowledge, we have not found any evidence of genuine holy war in Christian societies prior to 1095, and we still struggle to find trustworthy evidence of this after the First Crusade too. I am well aware I'm attacking the entire pretext of the game series Crusader Kings by mentioning this, but it is pretty much academic consensus that despite the very welcome efforts of Holy Fury, Crusades in CK2 lack sufficient depth and complexity. And whilst I'm talking about religion - could you please inform the court chaplains of your vassals that they absolutely would not dare burning a porphyrogenita alive for being a 'heretic'? The consequences of doing so would be fairly dire, which leads me neatly into...

6. War and Diplomacy: In this regard, CK2 has often made very good steps during its development at adding additional CB's that have basis in historical fact, but this is another area lacking depth and accuracy in CK2. Without giving you chapter and verse of my thesis (which was written on Byzantine diplomacy), I would like to point out that diplomacy was way more complex than war, peace, NAP or Alliance, as were the methods of securing diplomatic outcomes. Firstly, the 'clash of civilisations' Christian vs. Muslim nonsense needs to be thrown out again. There was plenty of scope for truces and advanced diplomacy between polities of conflicting faith - we have accounts of dozens of treaties between Byzantium and the caliphates. To use another example, the Emirate of Aleppo was turned into a Byzantine tributary state in 969, but often switched allegiances between Byzantium and the Fatimids and Buyids, depending on which polity could best serve its interests. We also have examples of Christian and Muslim states making arrangements to fight together. Pacts of various kinds should not be limited to marriage or familial relations. And on that note, interfaith marriages were absolutely not prohibited, although I do admit they often occurred in extreme political circumstances. There were a myriad of other actions which medieval states could do if they could afford it - paying one neighbour to attack another was fairly common, yet cannot happen in CK2. Other diplomatic actions include peaceful annexations of territory in exchange for money and titles for the former rulers of the territory (this was a Byzantine party-trick mostly), and interactions with religious institutions and leaders (not just the Pope either, other Churches possessed significant resources too). Linking back to point #2, one method of replenishing diminished populations was to encourage migration from another polity into your own lands and we have evidence of this taking place all across the Near East (it was one of the reasons why the area became so diverse in the first place). CK3 needs a better and more in depth diplomatic system than marry, pact, alliance.

7. Industry and general economy: Industry certainly played a part in the medieval world. Without access to metalworkers and craftsmen, you aren't going to be conquering anyone anytime soon. Furthermore, you won't be taking part in lucrative trade and the surprisingly well developed financial system of Byzantium and the caliphates without the ability to mint your own coins. I've already mentioned the glass working and it goes without saying that areas of industrial activity were of the first importance to medieval rulers, as was their growth and protection. I placed this one last because even though I wrote a paper on it (and a bloody good interdisciplinary paper at that, even though I do say so myself) its one I've put the least thought into. The basic gist is this: raw materials and the means to process their output should not be an afterthought. Certain regions in CK2 would be much more desirable if the riches of their earth were properly considered and a feature of the game, plus I feel that such 'strategic' considerations would actually make the game more fun and aid in progression. On the economy side of things, all I can offer for reasoning to make changes to the CK economic system is that the medieval pilgrimage of Musa I and the catastrophic effect it had on the local economies of the regions he passed through could never be replicated in CK2, despite the entire series of events underlining how wrong traditional viewpoints of the simplicity of the medieval fiscal system are.

That's it for now. I've got loads more to say but I don't want to drive off the last of the stalwarts who actually read this post top to bottom. I'd like to strongly reiterate that this post was not made to antagonise anyone, nor to chastise the hardworking and passionate CK3 game dev team. I still have plenty of fun in CK2 (1125 hours does not lie) and will continue to do so despite my professional and academic disagreements with the abstraction of the medieval world as represented in CK2. I'd also like to state that despite modding experience under my belt, I am not a game designer, and I recognise that for the sake of enjoyment, sacrifices have to be made. I wish the CK3 team the best of luck.

3.) As a fellow Byzantinist, I am glad to see another historian correctly point out the truancy of non-feudalism in Byzantine history. One of those misconceptions that people new to field generally accept but isn't necessarily really true. Now if we can get folks to stop misconstruing Basil II as some ruthless anti-Bulgarian mad man that would be even better.

5.) Going to disagree on this one though. This seems to have a trace of post-modern revisionist think put into it. Although not an attack on you personally mind you. Any attempt to remove the religious aspect from the the Crusades (at least the first) is foolhardy. You would have a real difficult time convincing anyone otherwise as you would have to make huge leaps in logic and stretch the understanding of physical evidence to come to such conclusions. I have already read through the forum at this point and the point has been defended by vnth rather well. You might be able to articulate better but the substance of the counter point is still too much to be convinced otherwise. Great read though!

the crusades generally were conducted pragmatically but that doesnt mean it was conducted for pragmatic reasons. there was nothing particularly pragmatic or rational about the crusades from the christian perspective. alexios asked for help recovering the anatolia but urban and the latins made it about recovering the distant and isolated levant. the whole thing was hugely expensive, unprofitable, and dangerous.

obviously, it would be great to have some complexities in the game like factions taking advantage of holy wars for personal gain and allying with the heretics against their own political opponents. but thats different from saying that the crusades werent technically spiritual wars because they werent all out conflicts. if thats the case, then jihads, which you hold as the gold standard, wouldnt qualify either. classical jurists had maintained that there must be only temporary truces between 'the house of peace' and 'the house of war.' and yet by the late 11th century, muslims in the east had been ignoring this supposed scriptural duty for over a century. conflicts with the byz empire, for example, were just political businesses of the seljuks, while muslims and christians in the region had long established a working understanding.


the first crusade was a part of the spiritual renewal process that had taken place across europe since the 10th century, which was also responsible for the monastic and investiture reforms.

I agree, too lazy to type why. I got you fam.
 
Here's one of my ideas for a more realistic Byzantium that is strongly associated with marriages - the fierce competition amongst foreign notables to marry an intensely desirable porphyrogenneta (purple-born) princess. Marriage to a porphyrogenneta was far more significant politically than marriage to any other foreign princess, and not because such marriage generated a 'claim' to the title - it didn't, because Byzantium was NOT a feudal kingdom therefore was no such thing to a 'claim' to the imperial throne, at least not this way. People who claimed the imperial title (such as the aforementioned Simeon I) did so for other reasons and didn't need a porphyrogenneta for this. Also, foreigners (as in, those external to Byzantium) would never 'inherit' the title, but that is a topic for my upcoming post about how succession in Byzantium worked. Returning to the question at hand, why did a porphyrogenneta mean so much to foreigners?

It's all about legitimacy, which should totally be a mechanic in CK3. Marrying a porphyrogenneta meant that the Roman emperor recognised the nobility and senatorial character of the husband-to-be, marking them out as special amongst the other ethne (peoples). The medieval Romans cultivated a discrete and isolated view of themselves; they did not see their culture as in competition with any other because they believed they were far superior to other peoples who could never hope to reach such lofty heights. To be recognised as a suitable candidate to marry a porphyrogenneta was an honour very rarely bestowed upon the non-Roman, and thus the recognition that the husand-to-be was worthy enough to marry both a Roman, and a Roman princess at that. This was obviously an implicit understanding that the Roman emperor supported the husband-to-be. In addition to this, porphyrogenneta were said to be quite beautiful and very well educated - attractive traits in a wife. Porphyrogenneta were clearly desirable brides for foreigners, but the competition was so fierce because the chance of successfully marrying a porphyrogenneta was so low. Of all the daughters of emperors during the existence of the Byzantine Empire, only the marriages between Maria Lekapene and Peter I of Bulgaria in 927, and Anna Porphyrogennetos and Vladimir the Great of the Kievan Rus' in 988 can truly considered marriages between porphyrogenneta and foreign princes. Other marriages between imperial daughters and foreign notables did take place, however we are not sure whether these women were actually born in the purple, or simply children born before their father become emperor. More research is needed in this area.

Interestingly, both of the marriages I mentioned above seemed to have occurred as part of deals with these men. Peter I took Maria as his wife as part of a conclusive armistice with the Byzantines (she was renamed Irene - peace - to recognise the peace treaty). Vladimir either negotiated for Anna's hand (she was strongly against the marriage) in exchange for Christianizing the Kievan Rus', or, as Arabic chronicles tell us, she was promised to Vladimir by her brother Basileios II in exchange for Kievan military assistance against the rebel and usurper Bardas Phokas. Either way, marrying a member of the reigning imperial family was a big deal, and was often the result of intense diplomatic manoeuvring. This one mechanic should be faithfully recognised in CK3 as a minor way of bringing flavour and historical accuracy to Byzantium.
 
5.) Going to disagree on this one though. This seems to have a trace of post-modern revisionist think put into it. Although not an attack on you personally mind you. Any attempt to remove the religious aspect from the the Crusades (at least the first) is foolhardy. You would have a real difficult time convincing anyone otherwise as you would have to make huge leaps in logic and stretch the understanding of physical evidence to come to such conclusions. I have already read through the forum at this point and the point has been defended by vnth rather well. You might be able to articulate better but the substance of the counter point is still too much to be convinced otherwise. Great read though!
I'd like to point out that my meaning has been misconstrued (possibly not helped by my revolutionary ardour in this regard) if you are interpreting this as an argument by me against the involvement of faith in the Crusades. I am arguing against the 'clash of civilisations' narrative - that the crusades occurred and were propelled by Christian hatred for Islam. I still maintain that it wasn't about religious differences between the Turks and the Christians, but rather it was only propagandised and justified this way publicly in order to whip up support. Christians were quite capable of using faith to justify wars against other Christians too, and also had a developed capacity for peaceful dialogue and co-existence with Muslims. Painting the Crusades as the culmination of hundreds of years of animosity over the seizure of the Holy Land in the 630's is simply not backed up by the evidence. I do not deny the spiritual 'push' which drove Crusaders on; I do deny that it was primarily fuelled by Christian hatred of Islam. I also deny the presupposition that discussion of crusading historian often generates - that Christianity and Islam are fundamentally incompatible and therefore war between them is inevitable.
 
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Ok, so how would the Byzantines play in CK3, in effect? All the provinces owned by the Basileus, with vice-royalties? What about Despots? What would be the tier equivalent of a Western Count or a Duke, and how would it play?

For all the cries from Byzanto-weeabos about wanting a different Byzantine Empire experience, there is still no concrete suggestion on how it should play in CK, at any player tier.
 
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For all the cries from Byzanto-weeabos about wanting a different Byzantine Empire experience, there is still no concrete suggestion on how it should play in CK, at any player tier.

Might have something to do with the fact that there is no concrete manifestation of the game yet, at any player tier.

And it also happens to be off-topic.
 
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Ok, so how would the Byzantines play in CK3, in effect? All the provinces owned by the Basileus, with vice-royalties? What would be the tier equivalent of a Western Count or a Duke, and how would it play?

For all the cries from Byzanto-weeabos about wanting a different Byzantine Empire experience, there is still no concrete suggestion on how it should play in CK, at any player tier.
I was writing this up and realised it simply would not work. 'Tiers' is far too basic a category to understand hierarchy in the medieval world anyway, not just in Byzantium. But here is how I envisaged the organisation of the system:
  • Baronies = bandon (plural banda) ruled by a komes (plural kometes)
  • Counties = tourma (plural tourmai) ruled by a tourmarches (plural tourmarchai)
  • Duchies = thema (plural themata) ruled by a strategos (plural strategoi)
  • Kingdoms = katepanate (plural katepanates) ruled by a katepano (plural katepans)
The problem is none of these positions were hereditary under the theme system, and the Byzantine aristocracy wasn't remotely comparable to the aristocracy of any feudal system. What complicates things further is that the office holder of any one of these positions could be relieved and replaced at will. Understand that none of the holders of these positions owned the land they ran, at least never enough of it to give them control of it. Furthermore, the troops which these lands supported didn't necessarily owe their loyalty to the governor of their thema, in theory they owed it to the emperor, in practice they owed it to the most senior commander of the local Byzantine military forces, usually the domestikos ton scholon. Playing a strategos in CK3 with a fully accurate Byzantine system could result in a landless status (and therefore Game Over) at practically any time. There was also no way you'd be able to pass the position to your son either. Furthermore, as strategos you wouldn't have 'claims' to land, you wouldn't be able to start offensive wars, and all you would spend your time doing is managing land you don't get to keep, and occasionally raising troops to fight raiders. That's pretty much it. It would be boring and rather pointless.

Now, an argument can be made for a post-thematic system which existed after the Byzantine restoration in 1261, which had more in common with feudalised states. There is also the possibility of creating a bureaucratic government form for the Byzantine empire after the battle of Manzikert in 1071 but before the Komnenian Restoration - this was a period of turmoil where the old thematic officers had much more power, where weak emperors allowed too much imperial power to slip away, and where heavy fiscalisation of the thematic armies had resulted in near-complete military collapse. I'm still thinking about this.
 
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Playing a strategos in CK3 with a fully accurate Byzantine system could result in a landless status (and therefore Game Over) at practically any time.

This is not as impossible as one might first think. CK2 already has a mechanism for landless players, namely merchant republics. Non-doge families still have private estates and a viable mode of play. So I think it is quite possible to work out something appropriate to Byzantium without even having to stretch the technical foundations too far from CK2.

Maybe playing a non-imperial family within Byzantium shouldn't be about grabbing hereditary land and starting outside wars. Within the empire, the key asset to accumulate is not land but political influence, which can be passed down through dynasties. This should make intrigue and character interaction a much richer part of the dynamics there than internal wars over counties.

Perhaps like what PDX is doing with making head of dynasty into a title, certain offices and positions of power within Byzantium could be made into titles that allow the holding character to control certain organs of the state. One might be able to set taxation, another to control certain armies, etc. Yet the characters themselves remain officially landless as with merchant republics.

The imperial court itself could serve as an internal "holdings map" of sorts. One's position in the court might have a similar importance as a ruler's feudal status in the west.
 
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Would it be reasonable for a Byz player to exercise control of armies--like if one of their children were placed in command--in the event of a war (declared by the Emperor or against Byz as a whole) or was control usually too centralized for that to make sense?
 
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As I understand it, the leading families of Byzantium were in fact large landowners though. They used the wealth generated by their lands and estates to purchase influence in the imperial court, which was their main objective if they were interested in politics. Similarly, the Byzantine court throughout the time period were concerned about the growing power of landlords (both clergy and nobility) in the provinces and enacted various laws to variously curb the influence of landlords, increase tax revenue (especially in regards to loopholes used by the clergy), or increase the manpower of estates for military purposes. So I don't think just doing away with land ownership for the nobility (and clergy) in Byzantium is tenable.

Some brainstorming though. To resolve the landless = game over issue, perhaps the Byzantine noble families can still own land at the baronies tier, and have that be "protected" even if their position as tourmaches or strategos is stripped by the emperor. I'm not sure what would happen though if the county where the noble family has their barony gets annexed by a foreign power.

Or perhaps, the land-owning aspect of Byzantine nobles can be made into an abstraction via a system similar to merchant republics. Individual nobles (/families) can use their cash (generated from their estates, and their number of estates and income can vary based on modifiers, attributes, Imperial laws, and events) to purchase influence at court.

Just thinking out loud. Bottom line, whatever mechanic/system that is designed should be fun to play as.
 
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Painting the Crusades as the culmination of hundreds of years of animosity over the seizure of the Holy Land in the 630's is simply not backed up by the evidence.
if the enmity had been built up for generations there would be no need for any spiritual renewal. the renewal was what made the message that christ is suffering in his own house so genuinely compelling to virtually every christian. it was what gave the first crusade a will of its own that defied politickings and strategic considerations.
 
Neither republics nor not-feudal Byzantium will feature at start (to my understanding).

"landless" gameplay, focusing on estates, dynasty, diplomacy, intrigue would be fantastic.
Ck2 republics are a bit lackluster, but otherwise tap into some really interesting gameplay.
Byzantium would benefit so much from this kind of gameplay.
In ck2 when you take the decision to restore the Roman empire and "demilitarise" to a pre-Heraclius style of governance, you had a shift from intrigue, towards oratory (diplomacy).
A bit of dynamism would be great!
 
An overhaul of how wars work, getting rid of the rigid CB-before-lauching-a-war stuff, would be nice both for gameplay and historical accuracy in all PDX titles.



Idem, it would be nice to have an overhaul for peace deals. :)
Yes even CK1 did have a basic land/claim/gold bargain far better than CK2.
 
I think a viable solution would be the utilization of family palaces like the patricians in the republic dlc have. If you play as a byzantine noble and you lose all offices you could fall back on that and have a couple of choices how to get back to power.