Massed AA

[paperhero]

I am playing as Russia in HOE4. I know I will eventually be at war with Germany, and know planes play an important role in combat, so much so that it is said that if you lose the war in the air you will lose the war, and lose the war quickly. That being said I thought I would try it anyway because Russia has very little rubber, and making a lot of synthetic refineries would take away a lot of production from my making military factories. So my thought is: can I make up for no air force with a lot of AA brigades? Since AA can fulfill their function (ie. shooting down enemy air) from behind the front line, and thus will not be in direct combat, is their any reason to put inf with them? As Russia I don't worry about manpower, since I have a massive amount of it. So then you ask why skimp on it? The answer is: to save both on small arms production, and the supply the inf would eat up.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

AA brigade? As in divisions with nothing but AA sitting behind the lines? I don't think they will do anything at all. Are you confusing them with state AA buildings?

 

[tisqsaps]

Support Anti-Air and Anti-Air battalions in your divisions only work while in combat and they only attack the enemy CAS in this combat.
The State Anti-Air only attack enemy bomber active in this state.
A division with Anti-Air battalions sitting somewhere on the map will do nothing against enemy air units.

 

[HmJ_JP]

Yes, you can add more AA brigades to your template, this definitely helps. Think also about armored trains and province AA: these will definitely shoot down planes.
But you won't get war score from that contribution unfortunately, it is what it is.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

State AA will reduce the enemy's Air Superiority. According to the wiki, a fully completed State AA system removes 25 Air Power points per State; there are roughly 4 States in an eastern European Strategic Region so you're looking at about 100 points. That's equivalent to a single enemy air wing. So you can expect your ground forces to be facing severe Air Superiority penalties unless you mitigate that with AA units.

 

[HmJ_JP]

State AA will reduce the enemy's Air Superiority. According to the wiki, a fully completed State AA system removes 25 Air Power points per State; there are roughly 4 States in an eastern European Strategic Region so you're looking at about 100 points. That's equivalent to a single enemy air wing. So you can expect your ground forces to be facing severe Air Superiority penalties unless you mitigate that with AA units.

Note that you don't need to cover each and every tile in the province. Just build where you have good infra, the game doesn't check which tile the planes actually pass: it's just about total air region coverage %.

 

[Kanitatlan]

You can somewhat mitigate the effects of airpower by adding AA to your divisions but you will still face issues

• AA in a division will mitigate the effects of CAS attacking that division
• State AA will mitigate the effects of logistic strike in that state
• Ground units will still suffer the penalties relating to the enemy having air superiority. This exists even if your AA decimates the enemy bombers
• Armoured trains will mitigate logistic strike

The bottom line really is that you are probably better off trying to dispute enemy air superiority. I find that the most effective Soviet strategy with all dlc is to deploy a substantial defensive force of infantry with support AA and heavy tank destroyers as top build priority and then air superiority fighters as the next priority. Whilst massed AA (extra line AA battalions) will have an effect it is local to the divisions that are fighting and won't neutralise the secondary effects of enemy air power (air superiority bonus and logistic strike)

 

[HmJ_JP]

You can somewhat mitigate the effects of airpower by adding AA to your divisions but you will still face issues

• AA in a division will mitigate the effects of CAS attacking that division
• State AA will mitigate the effects of logistic strike in that state
• Ground units will still suffer the penalties relating to the enemy having air superiority. This exists even if your AA decimates the enemy bombers
• Armoured trains will mitigate logistic strike

The bottom line really is that you are probably better off trying to dispute enemy air superiority. I find that the most effective Soviet strategy with all dlc is to deploy a substantial defensive force of infantry with support AA and heavy tank destroyers as top build priority and then air superiority fighters as the next priority. Whilst massed AA (extra line AA battalions) will have an effect it is local to the divisions that are fighting and won't neutralise the secondary effects of enemy air power (air superiority bonus and logistic strike)

I think you go a bit fast. In several case it's not just logistic strike but also CAS that can be targeted. And state AA definitely helps against enemy air superiority.

 

[Kanitatlan]

I think you go a bit fast. In several case it's not just logistic strike but also CAS that can be targeted. And state AA definitely helps against enemy air superiority.

• Only divisional AA targets aircraft on ground attack mission
• Only state AA and armoured trains target aircraft on logistic strike mission
• State AA helps a bit on air superiority but not on a scale that is likely to make much difference

 

[Secret Master]

While AA in both divisions and at the state level is a solid investment in many cases, I am not sure a "no air" Soviet build is worthwhile in the current build.

Others have noted a bunch of issues, but let me break it down my way.

1) AA guns are cheaper than planes in both cost and resources. You can easily spam both support AA and line AA in your divisions just using steel. You can produce AA guns from day 1, and even though Tier 1 AA guns aren't as good as the Tier 2 guns you can get in 1939-1940, they are still solid.,

2) State AA is more expensive than just spamming AA guns for divisions, but you really need it to deter LOG strikes and strategic bombing. Note that strategic bombing isn't just about factories, but STRs can bomb forts, railways, infrastructure, and other state level stuff. Once built, state level AA is permanent. It can be bombed, but it will repair itself over time like all other buildings even with no factories dedicated to repair. Of course, it's tied to a state, so as the front moves, it becomes less relevant.

3) Armored trains can claim enemy kills, but the number of kills they claim will be small compared to the cost of the trains.

4) AA guns never shoot down planes on air superiority. AA guns nerf the air superiority modifier, but all those Bf109s will fly forever. You won't wear down the Luftwaffe's fighter arm this way. You may not care about this, but the western powers certainly will. (It's your call whether you care about that, though.)

5) With no air power, you will find that defending is much easier than attacking with your AA guns. Sitting in entrenchment and covering yourself with AA can reduce the impact of the Luftwaffe. But attacking is much harder because you will move out of the coverage area for state AA if you successfully attack, the speed reduction from enemy air superiority will nerf your armored thrusts, and even with state AA and armored trains, there is no panacea for LOG strikes. That means you can expect low supply penalties hurting all offensives.

6) Synth plants are not required for a Soviet air force. Just buy rubber overland from Malaysia and India. Or buy it from Japan if Japan takes all that stuff. In fact, if I could find the thread, I would show you the math behind how long it takes synth plants to pay themselves off versus just buying the rubber outright. It seems like bad economics to buy rubber, but the reality is buying is usually better than making your own unless it's impossible to buy.

7) Because the Soviets have their own oil and aluminum, a Soviet air force isn't that expensive to make and maintain. Don't let the rubber cost scare you. It is perfectly possible to beat the Luftwaffe in 6 months using Soviet factories, aluminum, and oil while just buying the requisite rubber.

8) Once the Luftwaffe is effectively dead, going on the offensive and beating the Axis is much easier. Having your own air power is a power multiplier when on the attack. I would also remind everyone that the AI Axis is rather fragile with regards to trains and trucks. Having your own air force should let you obliterate Germany's truck and train stockpile.

 

[HmJ_JP]

• Only divisional AA targets aircraft on ground attack mission
• Only state AA and armoured trains target aircraft on logistic strike mission
• State AA helps a bit on air superiority but not on a scale that is likely to make much difference

Ok, I had different recollection. Let me complete about state AA: strategic bombing, port strike and air supply missions are affected by state anti-air (AA).

 

[Cavalry]

AA is not for attacking planes but for defend against it. Similarly AT is for defend agaisnt tank. If you wan to attack tank, use tank and planes yourself.

Let's learn the art of using tank and planes just like real WW2 life, use them mostly when you attack and turn air off when you don't. So with a smaller air force you still can give huge help to the attack on the ground.

You can live with no air but you don't need to. A few CAS is very helpful to have. Use ratio 1 fighter : 3 CAS.

 

[HmJ_JP]

AA is not for attacking planes but for defend against it. Similarly AT is for defend agaisnt tank. If you wan to attack tank, use tank and planes yourself.

Let's learn the art of using tank and planes just like real WW2 life, use them mostly when you attack and turn air off when you don't. So with a smaller air force you still can give huge help to the attack on the ground.

You can live with no air but you don't need to. A few CAS is very helpful to have. Use ratio 1 fighter : 3 CAS.

Yes, but the issue is that sending some CAS when you don't have air superiority exposes you to big losses, no? So you always feel you need a few fighters. I used to build 2 fighters : 1 CAS, but with multirole planes this could be mitigated.

 

[Cavalry]

Yes, but the issue is that sending some CAS when you don't have air superiority exposes you to big losses, no? So you always feel you need a few fighters. I used to build 2 fighters : 1 CAS, but with multirole planes this could be mitigated.

As I suggest, 1 fight: 3 CAS or use multi role more heavy on ground attack not air attack. Multi role is for reduce air casualties not for kill enemy air.

For AI enemy, there is a few days or week before enemy air gather to counter your air. Good enough to break and encircle enemy. Then you can turn off your air force. Even China can make use of CAS against Japan (and for fighting JAP they don't need fighter)

 

[Kanitatlan]

While AA in both divisions and at the state level is a solid investment in many cases, I am not sure a "no air" Soviet build is worthwhile in the current build.

My recent experience is that air is somewhat more important than tanks for the Soviets and building up to dispute air superiority for Barbarossa is actually more useful than having a significant counter-attack force available.

5) With no air power, you will find that defending is much easier than attacking with your AA guns. Sitting in entrenchment and covering yourself with AA can reduce the impact of the Luftwaffe. ...

Whilst this is true the reason is that a typical "hard" Soviet defence has capability to spare and hence can endure the air superiority penalties. If you are disputing air superiority and even supplying some CAS this actually makes a significant difference to the total casualties in the Soviet defence phase which is about the only way to determine the difference since even with no air the defence holds. As an example, game I just played I delayed the Soviet counter-offensive for more than a year and at that point casualties where 135K Soviet losses and Axis total around 10 million. [as an aside, this was a big problem as it seems to have seriously reduced leader XP and army XP acquired]

6) Synth plants are not required for a Soviet air force. Just buy rubber overland from Malaysia and India. Or buy it from Japan if Japan takes all that stuff. In fact, if I could find the thread, I would show you the math behind how long it takes synth plants to pay themselves off versus just buying the rubber outright. It seems like bad economics to buy rubber, but the reality is buying is usually better than making your own unless it's impossible to buy.

The main reason I build synth plants as the Soviets is that you run into problems once the allies no longer control the rubber. This means that the build is delayed and doesn't need to happen during the Barbarossa build up (when you just buy rubber). Once Japan gets the rubber you get the problem that it now needs to be convoyed and the game absolutely refuses to allow you to convoy it to Vladivostok. . That's the first problem but the second problem comes when Japan runs out of convoys because they have to transport it before you buy off them. It only works out OK if Siam takes Malaya and you can buy from them but they have a tendency to get overrun by the Allies. Once Japan is no longer supplying rubber then there is a big problem as nobody has much to spare.

I tend to build aircraft without self-sealing tanks until I acquire a significant natural rubber supply.

8) Once the Luftwaffe is effectively dead, going on the offensive and beating the Axis is much easier. Having your own air power is a power multiplier when on the attack. I would also remind everyone that the AI Axis is rather fragile with regards to trains and trucks. Having your own air force should let you obliterate Germany's truck and train stockpile.

This is very true and benefits enormously from having built a significant number of high ground attack CAS. One of the problems for the Soviets is that the initial air force is dominated by air superiority aircraft, in my case mostly fighters with a single CAS slot so they can do some CAS missions. Usually assigned to logistic strike once air dominance has been achieved.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

state AA shut down enemy bombers on Strategic Bomber and Logistical Strike missions.
divisions AA shut down only CAS perfoming ground strike against it.
Only fighters shut down other fighters on air superiority mission.

its a very long time since i played with SOV, was safe play with no AIR and AA brigades on INF, germany AI can't break you.

 

[Kanitatlan]

its a very long time since i played with SOV, was safe play with no AIR and AA brigades on INF, germany AI can't break you.

This remains true but the Soviet forces are significantly stronger with air support and kind of need it for the offensive. On a standard everything turned up full difficulty you have enough resources as the Soviets to build up your infantry based defence plus something else and as far as I can see it is more important to neutralise Axis air power and develop some of your own than it is to fully develop your counter-offensive force.

 

[Secret Master]

Once Japan gets the rubber you get the problem that it now needs to be convoyed and the game absolutely refuses to allow you to convoy it to Vladivostok. .

I don't have a problem shipping from Japan that way:

That steel I'm importing from Japan is going from the Home Islands to my port right there.

I closed all other sea zones:

That route you see is Britain buying my aluminum.

I tend to build aircraft without self-sealing tanks until I acquire a significant natural rubber supply.

Self-sealing fuel tanks is a module that should only be used if you are not capped on rubber. It reduces a ton of losses, but paying 2 rubber per plane does not cut losses in half compared to just doing 1 rubber. So, if rubber is something you have to make with synth plants or you have to import at 1 CIC per 8 rubber, it's usually not worth the rubber to use the module.

 

[Kanitatlan]

That steel I'm importing from Japan is going from the Home Islands to my port right there.

Well that appears to be new. It definitely didn't work some time back and I haven't tried it for a while. The issue was always something about the game only trying the nearest ports to your capital (up to some limit). Obviously something has changed. How upgraded is your trans Siberian railway (in case that matters)

 

[Secret Master]

Well that appears to be new. It definitely didn't work some time back and I haven't tried it for a while. The issue was always something about the game only trying the nearest ports to your capital (up to some limit). Obviously something has changed. How upgraded is your trans Siberian railway (in case that matters)

No manual upgrading of anything. I ran some of the infra focuses.