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CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

Good afternoon, everyone. I’m Magne “Meneth” Skjæran. You might know me from the CK2 dev diaries or the Paradox Wikis, but for the last couple of years I’ve been working on CK3 as a programmer. Today we’re going to cover a number of topics closely related to government types: governments themselves, vassal management, laws, and raiding.

Let's start off with a familiar concept from CK2: governments. For the player, we have three playable governments: Feudal, Tribal, and Clan, which each have some significant differences in how they play.

The Feudal government type is based on European feudalism, and is heavily based around the idea of obligations: you owe service to your liege, and your liege owes you protection in return. It is the most common government form in the game. Feudal realms play pretty similarly to CK2, focusing on claims and inheritance more so than the other government forms.

A new addition in CK3 is Feudal Contracts. Every feudal vassal (except barons) has an individual contract with you, rather than obligations being set realm-wide. These contracts have three levels; Low, Medium, and High, with Medium being the default. High will provide more levies and tax at the cost of an opinion hit, while Low provides less but improves opinion. Higher levels are usually better (though perhaps not if you’re at risk of your vassals revolting), but cannot be imposed unilaterally.

You’ll need to have a hook on your vassal in order to increase their obligations unless you’re fine with all your vassals considering you a tyrant, but you can always lower them. As a result this means you can significantly increase your power if you’re able to obtain hooks on your vassals; perhaps a bit of judicious blackmail might be in order?

Feudal Contract.png

[Modifying a Feudal Contract]

Furthermore we have the Clan government form. This government is the rough equivalent of the Iqta government in CK2, though in CK3 it does have a more Feudal bent than it did previously.

The Clan government type is used by most Muslim realms. This government puts more emphasis on the family rather than the realm, with most vassals being members of your dynasty. Obligations are heavily based on opinion rather than being contractual, with happy vassals providing significantly more taxes and levies than unhappy ones. A happy family is a powerful family.

Clan governments also have access to the Clan Invasion casus belli, which can be used once in a lifetime at the highest level of Fame to invade a kingdom, providing a powerful boon for a well-established clan ruler.

Finally we have Tribal realms. Much like in CK2 these have their own Tribal holding type, providing more troops but less tax. Additionally, most tribals are able to go on raids, which you can read more about below. Tribal realms are unaffected by development, and cause non-tribal realms to have lower supply limits in their lands, making them a tougher nut to crack, but reducing their influence as the years drag on. Tribal realms also pay for men at arms using prestige rather than gold, allowing smaller realms to punch above their weight.

Tribal rulers base their obligations on levels of Fame rather than on contracts or opinion; the more famous your ruler is, the more troops and money your vassals will be willing to provide for your pursuits.

Finally, Tribal rulers have a once-in-a-lifetime Subjugation casus belli, allowing them to forcibly vassalize an entire realm.

As the game goes on, you can eventually reform out of Tribalism, becoming a Clan or Feudal realm instead.

Vassal Overview.png

[The vassal management tab]

To get an easy overview of your realm, we in CK3 have the Realm screen. Let’s start with the Vassals tab of this screen where all your vassals are shown. This gives you a clear overview of where your levies and taxes come from, who might be a threat to you, and allows you to renegotiate feudal contracts.

This is also where you change your crown authority (or tribal authority), which I’ll talk more about later in this dev diary.

Lastly, the screen shows your Powerful Vassals. Much like in CK2’s Conclave DLC, your realm will have some powerful vassals; these expect to be seated on the council, and will make their displeasure known if that is not the case.

Domain overview.png

[The Domain Tab]

Then we have the Domain tab. This lets you easily inspect your domain, showing where you’re earning money and levies, and where you can build more buildings. It also shows the level of development and control in the counties you personally hold, letting you easily tell where you can make improvements.

Finally we have the Succession tab. Due to being a bit of a work in progress, I’m afraid I can’t show you a picture of it right now. Here you can change your succession laws, see your heir(s), and check what titles, if any, you will lose when you die. If you hold any elective titles, you’ll be able to easily get to the election screen from here.

Now with all these mentions of laws, let's go through what laws exist. We’ve trimmed down the number of laws from CK2 as much of what used to be law is handled on a more individual level now, but some still remains.

Like in CK2, we have crown authority for Feudal and Clan realms, and tribal authority for Tribal realms. Higher levels of authority unlock mechanics like imprisonment (for tribals, the others start with it), title revocation, restrictions on internal wars, and heir designation. However, increasing these levels will make your vassals unhappy. Tribal authority is significantly less powerful than crown authority, representing how Tribal governments over time gradually got supplanted by Feudal and Clan governments.

Succession Laws.png

[Changing succession law]

Then there’s succession laws. To no one’s surprise, Gavelkind is making a return, though we’ve renamed it to Partition to make it more obvious what it actually means. This is the default succession form of most realms in both 867 and 1066.

For added fun, there’s now three variants of Partition. We’ve got regular Partition, which functions like Gavelkind in CK2; your realm gets split roughly equally between your heirs, and any heirs that end up a lower tier than your primary heir becomes a vassal.

However, many realms start with a worse form, especially in 867. This is Confederate Partition, which will also create titles of your primary title’s tier if possible. So if you as Norway have conquered all of Sweden but destroyed the kingdom itself, it will get recreated on your death so that your second heir becomes an independent ruler. Tribals are typically locked to this succession type, with some exceptions.

Finally we have an improved version of Partition: High Partition. Under High Partition your primary heir will always get at least half your titles, so it doesn’t matter if you’ve got 2 or 10 kids; your primary heir will get the same amount of land.

We’ve also done a lot of tweaks to the internal logic of who gets what titles, which tends to lead to far nicer splits than in CK2; border gore will of course still happen, but to a lesser degree than before.

Then we have the other succession forms. There’s Oldest Child Succession (replacing Primogeniture), Youngest Child Succession (replacing Ultimogeniture), and House Seniority. A notable difference from CK2’s Seniority Succession is that under House Seniority, the oldest eligible member of your house inherits, not of your entire dynasty.

We also have a number of variants on elective succession, ranging from Feudal Elective, to Princely Elective (HRE succession), and a handful of cultural variants. Each of these have different restrictions on who can vote, who can be elected, and how the AI will select who to vote for.

Additionally, we’ve got a full suite of gender laws, corresponding to the gender laws in CK2. These are: Male Only, Male Preference, Equal, Female Preference, and Female Only.

Finally, we have raiding. If you’re a Norwegian like me, sometimes you feel your Viking blood coursing through your veins, the noise of it drowning out everything else. Times like this, there’s only one solution: go on a raid.

Fans of Pagan gameplay in CK2 will be glad to hear that not only have we implemented raiding in CK3 as well, we’ve made some improvements to it to make it more fun to play with, and less unfun to be on the receiving end of.

The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.

Rally Point.png

[Raising a raid army]

Once at your target your army will start looting the barony they’re in. This is a pretty quick process, but during it your army will be unable to move, preventing you from running away from any counter-raiding force. This change makes it a lot simpler to deal with raiders if you’ve got enough men and can raise them quickly enough, as the AI won’t just immediately run away.

Raid Lindisfarne.png

[A raid in progress]

While in CK2 raiding was done on a county level, in CK3 it is on a barony level. Another difference is that in CK3 raiding no longer uses the siege mechanics directly, but rather a similar system where things like siege engines do not have an impact since you’re raiding the countryside, not a heavily fortified castle.

Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

Just like in CK2, a raid army is limited in how much loot it can carry based on the army size. Loot is deposited once the army is back in friendly lands, after which you might either disband or go raiding once more.

On the quality of life side, we now show on the map what provinces have already been raided when you have a raid army selected. This makes it easy to see what places to avoid. Hovering over a province will also tell you how much loot raiding it would provide.

Raid.png

[Northern England in its natural state]

That’s all for today, folks. Tune in next week to learn more about how war functions in Crusader Kings 3.
 
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Princely Elective was mentioned by name in the dev diary, so at least one of them are in. Imperial Elective might fall under "cultural variants".

Princely elective is not the same as Imperial Elective and you know it. The ERE's system of elections was vastly different from the "H"R"E" and it isn't being represented at all on lauch, no viceroyalities for strategoi, ect. While we didn't get kingdom viceroyalities until charlemagne in ck2 it's disappointing that we're going to have to buy that option again or not at all. When silence is all we get on options, you know there's a fox in the henhouse.
 
Do we get at least vice royalities in the base game? Even without Imperial Elective starting with everything being VRs always gave a nice bit of flavor for the ERE. You still had all the feudal mechanics underneath unfortunately, but it feels at least a little different.
 
Hm, not sure.
Nothing sounds really bad, some sounds good, but I am disappointed that laws are just a single, pre conclave, slider. Same (especially) for feudal contracts.

Also feudal and clan sound rather bland compared to tribal, something that was already a problem in CK2.
I only hope that tribal do not again end up OP compared to them, but hearing all the advantages they have in the troop department I am concerned.
 
Do the Highlands get clanic government?
I mean, it wouldn't be bad if Scotland and Ireland were only feudal in 1066, but historically they are clanic lands (and that's where the word "clan" is from).

I don't think the clan government as described really fits those regions, I think paradox just chose the name to cover the muslim governments. For what its worth, I agree it doesn't make sense to have a government called clan which doesn't cover the actual clans, but it seems to be poor name choice rather than a mechanical thing.
 
Great to see devs only responding to positive comments, not addressing any of the concerns brought up such as:
- Barbary pirates not existing / being unable to raid with ships
Maybe because not all of them are really relevant?

See my answer to the original question about "Barbary raids" which probably meant naval raids by the Berbers...
Weren't the naval raids by Berbers a question of much later (i.e. 16th century and beyond) or previous (7-8th century in case of unspecified "Moorish" raids) periods?
 
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Princely elective is not the same as Imperial Elective and you know it.

It does, however, cover the special succession law for the other empire you mentioned in your original post...

The ERE's system of elections was vastly different from the "H"R"E"

I am quite aware, having both played CK2 and having read up on the ERE on my own.

and it isn't being represented at all on lauch, no viceroyalities for strategoi

The dev diary didn't say anything about viceroyalties not being in the game (it didn't mention them one way or another), and since you presumably won't be switching to/from Appointment on your own if it is in it might not have been listed for that reason.

When silence is all we get on options, you know there's a fox in the henhouse.

Not necessarily; there are rather too many questions to feasibly answer them all.
 
Another significant change is that if you beat a raid army, you receive all the gold they’re carrying. This means that even if you cannot respond instantly to a raid, it is still very much worth it to beat up the raiders. Like in CK2, you also become immune to raiding by that enemy for several years.

What about prisoners?
Can we save them before the raiders return home?
 
Maybe because not all of them are really relevant?

See my answer to the original question about "Barbary raids" which probably meant naval raids by the Berbers...

I was only referencing other peoples' concerns that hadn't been responded to by devs, I'm not well versed in Berber history.
The only problems I personally have with this DD are the simplicity of contracts and needing to put powerful vassals on the council, but that doesn't mean others' concerns shouldn't be addressed.
 
I was only referencing other peoples' concerns that hadn't been responded to by devs, I'm not well versed in Berber history.
The only problems I personally have with this DD are the simplicity of contracts and needing to put powerful vassals on the council, but that doesn't mean others' concerns shouldn't be addressed.
Yup and was only referencing to a fact, that not all of those other people's concers really need to be responded, because they're not very relevant. Yes, I know the answer to my questions. Barbary raids were not relevant to the CK time period, hence there is no reason to concern why they aren't present in the game, don't you think? And hence no reason why a dev should answer that concern, don't you think? :)

I bet they have other work to do than to answer all questions, including those which aren't relevant to the game
 
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It does, however, cover the special succession law for the other empire you mentioned in your original post...



I am quite aware, having both played CK2 and having read up on the ERE on my own.



The dev diary didn't say anything about viceroyalties not being in the game (it didn't mention them one way or another), and since you presumably won't be switching to/from Appointment on your own if it is in it might not have been listed for that reason.



Not necessarily; there are rather too many questions to feasibly answer them all.

The last question answered was on the byzantines and stopped after I asked about other succession systems. This clearly shows that beyond "Flavor" we're going to be stuck with fuedal elective until we pay for a new type of succession. This is worrying for two reasons : One, it shows a lack of resources being put into two of the most important empires of the day for a simplified system that will "get new people to play the game!" when paradox knows it's audience. Two : to make you pay for a dlc pack that contains things that should have been in the game day one.

I already paid for the viceroyalities laws. That was fine to me. Paying for different succession systems? A bridge too far.
 
Yup and was only referencing to a fact, that not all of those other people's concers really need to be responded, because they're not very relevant. Yes, I know the answer to my questions. Barbary raids were not relevant to the CK time period, hence there is no reason to concern why they aren't present in the game, don't you think? And hence no reason why a dev should answer that concern, don't you think? :)

I bet they have other work to do than to answer all questions, including those which aren't relevant to the game

Yes but that was one of five concerns, it being one of the less important ones, and none of them have been addressed by the dev
 
Not gonna lie, I expected more from the Feudal contract system. At least I hoped for a separate levy/tax system; I'd definitely care more about money than levies in, say, Flanders or Amalfi; I hope we'll at least see events that can potentially change these feudal contracts; a scheming vassal may just decide to use a secret about his liege to blackmail him and reduce his feudal obligations. Still though, I can see the system improved and expanded in future updates/DLCs.

The gameplay variations between Feudal, Clan and Tribal look promising. I'd of course have loved to have all available governments at release, including Nomadic and Imperial government, but I think it would be much better if they released later and be different from each other, rather than having a feudal system with "imperial" slapped on top of it and no basical variation from feudal government itself.

I hope that powerful vassals will really be a pain in the arse for the average ruler; now we know that they expect a position on the council and that they play a major role in changing succession laws: all the more reason to try and find hooks and secrets about them.

Raiding revamp is very good, and I'm excited for that, both as raider as much as raided myself! Mosquito raiding will exist no more, and now any viking who dares set foot on my shores and plunder my lands unfortunate enough to meet my armies will be deprived both of their loot and their lives! :p

Now, there's one thing that leaves me thinking: we've talked about laws, but I haven't heard of any laws regarding religions; will we be able to revoke titles from infidels on our lands freely or will there be specific laws about revoking titles from infidels like in CK2?

Edit: I also agree with @james24eagle. Succession law names had their... charm, for a lack of better term. We could have Primogeniture, Ultimogeniture, etc. appearing in the boxes and if we hover over them (or select them) we can see what they actually mean. Anyway, I think this issue will be something minor anyway; text modding is easy and it probably won't even risk breaking ironman.
 
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Great to see devs only responding to positive comments, not addressing any of the concerns brought up such as:
- Overly simplistic feudal contracts
- Barbary pirates not existing / being unable to raid with ships
- No succession type for Byzantium/ERE
- Powerful vassals still needing to occupy important seats on the council instead of honourary roles, even if they're completely incompetent
- Clan invasion potentially being OP depending on requirements to use it (unsure how difficult reaching high levels of fame will be)

Not trying to be rude, I'm just excited for CK3 and feel like there's not much point in responding to comments if you ignore the negative / concerned ones.

They were hoping for praise, but all they delivered was a basic "flat" system which is even more simplistic than that of CK2. They're really missing some opportunities in the game, but also in terms of responding to some of the concerns that this whole post is full of.
 
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that laws are just a single, pre conclave, slider
The pre-Conclave tax/levy sliders were more complicated:
https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Demesne_laws#Vassal_obligations

You had separate sliders for taxes and levies. Conclave changed that to a single and made the game about choosing between money and troops. And made opinion penalties from those laws only temporary. At least CK3 seems to be back to permanent penalties for high obligations
 
Im general like this succesion laws system, especially tribal, seems it will be more accurate and big step forward since CK2
Feudal laws also interesting

Nomadic DLC officially almost confirmed ?
;):p