Regarding the legal-ese of the Copyright Notice

[HBS_Dagger]

Following up on concerns about the Copyright notice. This type of protection is not unusual when there is intellectual property involved, and protects both PDX and Harebrained Schemes from claims after-the-fact should any creative content on the forums end up being similar to content already in use or in development. (This is why Game companies invariably have a policy where they refuse to accept unsolicited game ideas for review. )

While technically true that anything shared on the forum belongs to PDX, obviously it's more complicated than that, with Harebrained Schemes and Microsoft and TOPPS all invested in the BattleTech IP. In talking with Paradox about their other game forums, we have been told that there has never been any problems with forum users sharing community content elsewhere and that PDX is not actively looking for opportunities to police this behavior.

We love seeing the art, creations and fiction that the community creates and hope that you'll continue to share it. That said, if you are uncomfortable with the Copyright Notice, we completely understand. Alternatively, you could host your creative materials on a different web site, where you are comfortable with its policies, and simply LINK to that site from a forum post. As long as you're not trying to monetize your content (which would definitely be inappropriate no matter where it is hosted), creative expressions like this can only be good for everyone involved!

Hope that makes sense.

 

[OathOfFealty]

Thank you!

 

[Stefan Amaris Jr]

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Fox the Apprentice]

[...]
Alternatively, you could host your creative materials on a different web site, where you are comfortable with its policies, and simply LINK to that site from a forum post. As long as you're not trying to monetize your content (which would definitely be inappropriate no matter where it is hosted), creative expressions like this can only be good for everyone involved!

Hope that makes sense.

Be sure to read the relevant sections of the forum rules; there are rules limiting linking to external sites on these forums.

 

[Modred189]

As someone than handles (c) issues for my work, just want to chime in here. This clause in the T's and C's is standard fare.
Long story short, copyright law provides copyright owners with protections against certain uses of their work. Relevant here is the right to copy and disseminate a copyrighted work. If PDX did not get from you the right to display your content (i.e., cooking and displaying), no one would be able to see your posts or your post content.

I have seen people published these sorts of agreements wherein they don't take ownership, they take a license, but that causes a lot of trouble down the line.
So, the simple answer is that clauses like this allow them to operate the form in the way you expect.

 

[Galaga Galaxian]

So its the same way it works in movies with people sending unsolicited scripts to studios. They (should) get destroyed without anyone even looking at them as SOP.

Makes sense.

 

[Modred189]

So its the same way it works in movies with people sending unsolicited scripts to studios. They (should) get destroyed without anyone even looking at them as SOP.

Makes sense.

It's kind of the flip side of the same coin. Essentially, your giving Paradox the right/ability to display content you post. Because of various international and US laws, that permission has to be explicit and pretty complete.

 

[Kereminde]

Here's the hundred-dollar question.

(Why that much? It's all I got in my pocket right now.)

If, hypothetically speaking, I hosted my fiction about Priam Company on another site and linked it here for those interested (not to the point of spam or excessive self-promotion!) . . . does placing the link here include the contents of the link on another site same as if I posted it directly here?

 

[Modred189]

Here's the hundred-dollar question.

(Why that much? It's all I got in my pocket right now.)

If, hypothetically speaking, I hosted my fiction about Priam Company on another site and linked it here for those interested (not to the point of spam or excessive self-promotion!) . . . does placing the link here include the contents of the link on another site same as if I posted it directly here?

Generally, just the link.
But let's be honest here, Paradox isn't stealing people's fanfic.

 

[CmdrDunsail]

N

Here's the hundred-dollar question.

(Why that much? It's all I got in my pocket right now.)

If, hypothetically speaking, I hosted my fiction about Priam Company on another site and linked it here for those interested (not to the point of spam or excessive self-promotion!) . . . does placing the link here include the contents of the link on another site same as if I posted it directly here?

No. Linking to content hosted elsewhere doesn't convey ownership of the remote content to the the location host of the link so long as the site you post the link on doesn't embed the remote content in its own page. If it does, then there's a question of granting permission to said embedded content, depending on country.

But it's neither here nor there as it's been expressly stated that's not the intend of the copyright legalese by both PDX and HBS.

 

[Kereminde]

Generally, just the link.
But let's be honest here, Paradox isn't stealing people's fanfic.

I would hope not, the quality is terrible and I hear the writer's a weird basket case.

. . . no, I'm not necessarily worried about Paradox stealing it, What keeps me up at night is a lot more than that... but I want the lines a bit clearer with regards to what I was creating in the first place. Heck, if it wasn't a legal headache I'd have offered HBS or ZOE the material for their use (but there's so much entanglement using something provided by a fan). To continue below:

N

No. Linking to content hosted elsewhere doesn't convey ownership of the remote content to the the location host of the link so long as the site you post the link on doesn't embed the remote content in its own page. If it does, then there's a question of granting permission to said embedded content, depending on country.

But it's neither here nor there as it's been expressly stated that's not the intend of the copyright legalese by both PDX and HBS.

Intent is . . . fine, but intent can change and the letter of the law often matters as much as the spirit of the law in some cases. I really wish to abide by the guidelines in my time here, and want to be sure I understand matters before leaping in.

I'm no longer worried. I'm not entirely satisfied for the moment with what I know, but we'll see what happens before I finalize the new home for the material enough to actually have links to put up anyway.

 

[Marcius Rae]

Generally, just the link.
But let's be honest here, Paradox isn't stealing people's fanfic.

Why wouldn't they thieve it? its Generally good stuff, y pay someone to come up with it when you can just scrounge through your forums under...FAN FICTION... lol

 

[Kereminde]

Why wouldn't they thieve it? its Generally good stuff, y pay someone to come up with it when you can just scrounge through your forums under...FAN FICTION... lol

Well, if they had any standards they'd steal the story of Partisan Industries over Priam Company

 

[Zavia]

While technically true that anything shared on the forum belongs to PDX, obviously it's more complicated than that, with Harebrained Schemes and Microsoft and TOPPS all invested in the BattleTech IP. In talking with Paradox about their other game forums, we have been told that there has never been any problems with forum users sharing community content elsewhere and that PDX is not actively looking for opportunities to police this behavior.

We love seeing the art, creations and fiction that the community creates and hope that you'll continue to share it. That said, if you are uncomfortable with the Copyright Notice, we completely understand. Alternatively, you could host your creative materials on a different web site, where you are comfortable with its policies, and simply LINK to that site from a forum post. As long as you're not trying to monetize your content (which would definitely be inappropriate no matter where it is hosted), creative expressions like this can only be good for everyone involved!

Hope that makes sense.

I cannot agree on this sentiment to promote people to share ideas here. To be clear, the rest of it is definitely good and respectful to everyone's IP.
To share some perspective and where I am coming from I was involved in a fairly large game forum in the early (well not so early to me) days of a MOAB, one that was the most played in the world. Consequently I follow the IP issues regarding MOABs taking ideas from one another. For example a foursome lawsuit: www.pcgamesn.com/dota-2/dota-copyright-lawsuit

Yes, Paradox has never been any problems with forum users sharing community content elsewhere and that PDX is not actively looking for opportunities to police this behavior. But they do not have something like Counter Strike, Natural Selection 2 and Dota on their hands right now. What they did is they preemptively put that they SECURED any IP incase it does happen. I was involved in managing the ideas section of said MOAB and I did see many of the ideas eventually implemented (I'm unaware of the behind the scenes part of any discussions tho) for the mod of a game. Most of it was credited but many older ones were not (people were not so sticky about IP then).
What does that mean? For fan fic, mods, ideas and so on, if you post it here, expect it to be taken and be used. While I'm fairly sure you will be credited in the changelog or something, thats all you can expect. That and a cease and desist letter to your fure mod/game/published book that now competes with them. They wouldn't put it there if they are not expecting to enforce it.

While all companies should protect their IP, this is not protecting it. This is taking other people's IP. If it reasserted the existing IP holders retain their IP then a story with a mech on a planet with a new character will have HBS/PDX/Whoever keeping ownership on the mech and planet, but the author keeping the rights to the character and story idea. (im not a legal person, this is a simplistic explanation)

Id suggest all content creators to

Alternatively, you could host your creative materials on a different web site, where you are comfortable with its policies, and simply LINK to that site from a forum post. As long as you're not trying to monetize your content (which would definitely be inappropriate no matter where it is hosted), creative expressions like this can only be good for everyone involved!

Emphasis mine.

It may not seem important now, but if ur any good, expect that you may go down a path that may use some of it in the future, 5 10 20 years from now.You dont know when something will be a success, so always setup right. Things can bite you in the ass from long ago, see unseen mech issues.

And while "it's more complicated than that" I'm also suprised that HBS would allow potential stuff of theirs to be in the hands of a Publisher. The T&C should have spelled out specifically the appropriate IP belongs to HBS/MS/TOPPS respectively, instead of saying just Paradox. Its already a few thousand words, whats a hundred more? As a business person, I would have insisted on it. As it stands, the trailer, art and so on HBS posts here is now officially theirs to reuse exclusively, either in part or in whole and with modification. Good faith is always important in business, but one should plan for a relationship to go sour, because if it does you would be thankful for it. I don't mean to tell you how to run your business and arrange your contracts, but its just something that seems really odd to me.

 

[Zavia]

Here's the hundred-dollar question.

(Why that much? It's all I got in my pocket right now.)

If, hypothetically speaking, I hosted my fiction about Priam Company on another site and linked it here for those interested (not to the point of spam or excessive self-promotion!) . . . does placing the link here include the contents of the link on another site same as if I posted it directly here?

Lets try, www.google.com
Do you think they can lay claim to the address and the name of that company? They can certainty try, but would they win?
A link is just a direction to another IP address, which as I know isn't copyrightable.

 

[Kereminde]

It may not seem important now, but if ur any good, expect that you may go down a path that may use some of it in the future, 5 10 20 years from now.You dont know when something will be a success, so always setup right. Things can bite you in the ass from long ago, see unseen mech issues.

Anything, and I mean anything of the BattleTech fanfiction, if I attempt to do anything with it I will be lawyer-doken'd so fast I wouldn't have time to think of a defense argument.

 

[Zavia]

Anything, and I mean anything of the BattleTech fanfiction, if I attempt to do anything with it I will be lawyer-doken'd so fast I wouldn't have time to think of a defense argument.

With existing T&C, yes. But otherwise you would retain elements to it. Say your character Keremindy's personality and unique quirks (like a regular phrase like "I'll be back" or "'Elementary, my dear Kirimendi") can be used in a new upcoming novel by Kerem Books in a new universe unrelated to BT without concern. Why reuse a character? Maybe its was very well received and you have developed the backstory and personality of said character and want to transpose it to your great new (non bt related) novel. Those elements are yours and not part of the BT universe copyright unless you post here then its in danger. Will they press claim? Unlikely, but they can. And that can be important. Or not.

Any fan fiction i write here will probably not be read tho, knowing my (lack of) ability to story tell, much less taken and resold/reused.

 

[stjobe]

I would just like to point out that there's a whole forum section on these forums devoted to "AARs, LPs, and Fanfiction", with sub-forums for different games.

While everyone is free to come to their own conclusions, I would also like to add that these forums have been online seventeen years without Paradox feeling the need to steal anyone's fan fiction.

In the end, you as a writer needs to do what feels right for you - and if that entails not posting your fan fiction here, that's sad for us but you gotta go with what you're comfortable with.

 

[Kereminde]

With existing T&C, yes. But otherwise you would retain elements to it. Say your character Keremindy's personality and unique quirks (like a regular phrase like "I'll be back" or "'Elementary, my dear Kirimendi") can be used in a new upcoming novel by Kerem Books in a new universe unrelated to BT without concern. Why reuse a character? Maybe its was very well received and you have developed the backstory and personality of said character and want to transpose it to your great new (non bt related) novel. Those elements are yours and not part of the BT universe copyright unless you post here then its in danger. Will they press claim? Unlikely, but they can. And that can be important. Or not.

It's not even about the Terms and Conditions here.

It's a mess. Fanfiction is such a mess, as it's in a technical sense illegal and you're relying on the rights holders to look the other way. Most do, for whatever reasons. Some . . . do not. Now sprinkle in what is the unique case of the question "so who owns the rights to BattleTech as an intellectual property?". Have fun figuring it all out, because it's like a jigsaw puzzle stored in three or five different boxes and you need to figure out which pieces are in which boxes by putting them together . . . far as I know there's seven companies or something like that who all lay claim to parts of BattleTech. (HBS is not one of them, they licensed it from Microsoft so they could make a video game. One of the reasons it took so long to get to it, I understand, is getting Microsoft to the table.)

BattleTech is not mine, and I honestly don't know who holds the rights to making novels in the universe. I do know they wouldn't likely do unsolicited work - also known as "the slush pile" - without the go-ahead of other rights-holders. Because whatever is published may be canon and that means Catalyst Game Labs needs to know what's in the fiction so they can try to correct details which stand out or contradict something else. This is before we ever consider me getting paid for this, even if they toss me a free lunch or something.

As I said, the question of rights doesn't bother me - if I wanted to really assemble a totally original work, I wouldn't reuse stuff I made before unless I had to. The major concerns are, in no order of importance to me personally:

- Making it clear where the line is for all authors, artists, poets, musicians, et cetera artistic types about where the line actually is with regard to content posted here. Not just myself, because this was a major point of concern for many in the transitional stage we had last week. (Even if I was half-convinced someone was reading too much into it, as I said upthread "what matters is the letter of the law, the spirit of the law, and potentially how one can be used in spite of the other".)

- Informing myself of acceptable options to continue sharing my work with those from the HBS forums and otherwhere, who were actually interested in reading more. After being talked into saving it there, it would be a shame for it to vanish for good for the ones who enjoyed it. Especially since I ask nothing for posting it other than to occasionally have my ego stroked by hearing "I like reading this crappy fanfiction".

- Making sure all precedents and options are clear here, as well as What The Worst Which Can Reasonably Happen is. Frankly, I live with Murphy (you might know his Law) on the couch and his buddy O'Toole drops by without warning sometimes. I've learned to invest effort in making sure I can reasonably predict exactly what The Worst Case Scenario may be and take steps to avoid it.

- Whether or not sleep is an illusion and dreams bleed into reality.

. . . the last one may or may not be because it's 3:20am right now as I write this.

 

[gigau]

While everyone is free to come to their own conclusions, I would also like to add that these forums have been online seventeen years without Paradox feeling the need to steal anyone's fan fiction.

Indeed.

The AAR section of the forum is one of the great strength of the Paradox forum.