HOI4 - Development Diary - October 12th 2016

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All you need to do now is active the other plans to clear out the pocket basically (and the 6 bonus UK divisions that are about to land):

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During all this the only buttons I pushed at all was "activate battleplan" and launch time at speed 5/pause.

( Yes I use some mods to make the battle lines look more clear, and no they have zero impact on how the battleplans actually play out or work ).

Why is the one division on the coast not part of an army and why is there no frontline? Does the plan not work if this province would have been added?
Is there a frontline on the southern province, from where the divisions attack? And why is there no purple frontline on the southern and eastern side of this province? If the plan was automaticly executed the army would have arrived from southeast and should have attacked the province from this sides.
Just curious.
 
Not feelings perhaps, but your failure to understand how the battleplanner works and what it's intended to do. As I (and others) have shown with detailed screenshots and plans The battleplanner even can be used for encirclements, so easier broad large-scale operations is not an issue at all for it. Yet you still persist and claim it can't be used neither for large scale operations nor encirclements, and you still can't point out actual bugs with it instead just claiming lose things like "all of it is bad", "there are so many bugs you don't know where to start", or expects it to do things it was clearly never designed to do nor anyone reasonably could expect it to ( like know exactly which units should be used in exactly what terrain/situation and be able to plan ahead into complex massive offensives around this without any manual input needed at all ).

It's a broad tool, as I ( and PDX in their dev diaries ) have tried to explain for you. If you refuse to listen that it is your issue, not mine.

And if you complain that the AI opponent is so bad overall, the Battleplanner also allows you to ( if you want ) fight it on more even terms.


I do admit that it's a tool which GUI and clarity could be improved, that there are a few issues with very large or very narrow fronts, and that is finicky and tricky to understand how to use. But once you look at the overall picture it does pretty much do what it says on the box.

It also allows for way more complex operations then HoI3, so it's a good improvement. Anyone that contests this I hereby challenge to getting the AI in HoI3 to do encirclements like what I did linked above and what's done in the wiki guide, with zero manual input other then assigning units to AI control and setting AI targets. Have fun!
The battle planner can be used for encirclements as long as the operations go 3-5 provinces deep and 2 provinces wide. Remember what I said about large-scale operations?
"have shown with detailed screenshots and plans..." Yeah, thanks for the detailed plan consisting of 2, non-overlapping straight offensive lines, as opposed to the one shown in the dev diary.
"Yet you still persist and claim it can't be used neither for large scale operations nor encirclements..." No, that is not what I'm saying. You seem to think the two are different. The planner is okay for small-sacle operations, like the one you showed. It's incapable of handling the even smaller encirclements that occur in large offensives, but I don't have a problem with that, as it was never promised. However, it is incapable of handling large-scale encirclements, like an attack against the Soviet Union, which was shown off in the dev diary.
I'm not claiming there are bugs. I'm claiming the system is lacking features. I don't get your obsession with bugs. You're not adressing my arguments, you're attacking a strawman. What Paradox promised pre-launch, an AI capable of handling large-scale operations and micromanaging panzers being a preference, and what they're saying post-launch, the battle planner being capable of handling general infantry advances and the blitz feature, designed for armoured operations being paid, are quite different. If I order a fish at a restaurant but get a chicken, then the waiter telling me "But sir, it's not overcooked!" is not really addressing my issue, is it?
" ...or expects it to do things it was clearly never designed to do nor anyone reasonably could expect it to ( like know exactly which units should be used in exactly what terrain/situation and be able to plan ahead into complex massive offensives around this without any manual input needed at all )." Yes, programming the AI to use mountaineers in the mountains and panzers in the field, or carrying out offensives I planned for it is obviously asking too much.
"And if you complain that the AI opponent is so bad overall, the Battleplanner also allows you to ( if you want ) fight it on more even terms." So, what you're saying is that it doesn't matter that my AI opponent is designed horribly and incapable of posing a challenge, as I'm hindered by being given dysfunctional tools. That's some high-level game-design right there.
"I do admit that it's a tool which GUI and clarity could be improved, that there are a few issues with very large or very narrow fronts, and that is finicky and tricky to understand how to use. But once you look at the overall picture it does pretty much do what it says on the box." So what you're saying that it really is capable of handling one or two types of operations, and while it was promised to handle large-scale operations in general, it still does what was promised.
"It also allows for way more complex operations then HoI3, so it's a good improvement. Anyone that contests this I hereby challenge to getting the AI in HoI3 to do encirclements like what I did linked above and what's done in the wiki guide, with zero manual input other then assigning units to AI control and setting AI targets. Have fun!"
Did you actually play HOI3? I agree, it was impossible to get the AI to do anything. However, the tools for the still needed micromanagement, which were taken out and replaced by a disorganized list and a battle planner you can't use, allowed for a much quicker and less clumsy experience.
 
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The battle planner can be used for encirclements as long as the operations go 3-5 provinces deep and 2 provinces wide. Remember what I said about large-scale operations?

No. It can do better.

That's with no blitz command and not even in the most recent patch.

Unless you consider wiping out 900,000 Soviet troops in under two months to somehow not be a large-scale operation.
 
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Why is the one division on the coast not part of an army and why is there no frontline? Does the plan not work if this province would have been added?
The one division was just an oversight by me since I was a bit quick to set it up. Oops :oops:. It will work just as fine if not better if it's included.

Is there a frontline on the southern province, from where the divisions attack? And why is there no purple frontline on the southern and eastern side of this province? If the plan was automaticly executed the army would have arrived from southeast and should have attacked the province from this sides.
Just curious.
The frontline is there from the start, but the battleplanner often removes the fronts from single province encirclements since these are intended to be handled "manually" outside the larger scale battleplanner both by AIs and by players. Sometimes it work fine anyways if your units have previous attack/move orders from before the front was removed, but sometimes you will need a small manual input to finish off tougher encirclements where the enemy occupy good defensive terrain with units that have org left.
 
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No. It can do better.

That's with no blitz command and not even in the most recent patch.

Unless you consider wiping out 900,000 Soviet troops in under two months to somehow not be a large-scale operation.

I said this before, but I'll say it again. The purpose of the battle planner is to get rid of tedious micromanagement. If you have to readjust the front and reassign divisions after every captured province, you may as well be giving direct orders.
 
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I said this before, but I'll say it again. The purpose of the battle planner is to get rid of tedious micromanagement. If you have to readjust the front and reassign divisions after every captured province, you may as well be giving direct orders.

Which would be a valid complaint if I was doing it after every captured province, except that's not what happens.
 
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If I may ask the devs, is it possible for Wojtek the General Bear to be made available from start after earning him a first time? i.e. If I have earned him once, I want him there forever, I do not want to keep having to re-earn him with every game.
 
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Which would be a valid complaint if I was doing it after every captured province, except that's not what happens.


your link said:
Once Rommel is ordered to attack, pay close attention to his front allocations. As he advances, he will start adding front provinces to his two province pincers.
This is unacceptable. If Rommel adds provinces to his front allocation, he will still start spreading his panzer divisions out. This is the opposite of what is required for proper spearheads. Use the Edit function (hold down the alt key) on the battle planner tools list to shrink his front allocation down without erasing his battle plan and starting over.

Maybe it's not literally every province but it's still obviously exactly what he is talking about. And it's still a clunky work around because the system clearly wasn't designed to be used the way you are using it.
 
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I don't understand the complaints. The current battle planner is designed to be flexible and made for massive offensives.
 
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Maybe it's not literally every province but it's still obviously exactly what he is talking about. And it's still a clunky work around because the system clearly wasn't designed to be used the way you are using it.

Fair enough. If you put aside the hyperbole, it is a clunky work around. But it does work, whether it was designed to work this way or not.

We might complain that the game does not work as designed when something is broken, but why complain when it does something we want it to do? There's no reason not to just use the battle planner to do the large scale operations he wants in the first place.
 
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Fair enough. If you put aside the hyperbole, it is a clunky work around. But it does work, whether it was designed to work this way or not.

We might complain that the game does not work as designed when something is broken, but why complain when it does something we want it to do? There's no reason not to just use the battle planner to do the large scale operations he wants in the first place.

My argument is that, first off, the battle planner is clunky as hell, and seems rushed at best, unfinished and dysfunctional at worst. I'm sure that you also had quite a lot of experience with the game assigning 20 divisions to empty, one-province pockets, not to mention that it basically ignores terrain, attacks mountains with panzers, crosses rivers with mountaineers, puts marines on plains. Issues like the game constantly strategically redeploying frontline troops would have come out with some basic testing, and could have been fixed before launch. Secondly, as I said before, Paradox said nothing about the battle planner being designed only for planning infantry, and WW1-style frontal offensives, they specifically said that micro-managing panzers is just a personal preference, implying that it's actually capable of handling large-scale panzer operations without the player having to readjust the front and reassign divisions every 5 seconds (which I'm pretty sure is actually micromanagement, just like giving direct orders). If they weren't being disingenuous, they would have mentioned that not so unimportant detail. Since the AI also uses the battle-planner, this also means that it's totally incapable of using armoured divisions for what they're good at, or using specialist troops in special circumstances. And now Paradox has tied in an addition that fixes part of the problem with an unfinished product into a DLC that is otherwise fully optional, to, in my opinion, coerce otherwise uninterested people into buying it. Doing this would have been like launching CK2 without matrilineal marriages, and then selling them with sword of islam, after promising pre-launch that you can totally continue your dynasty with female rulers. I mean you can still get random lovers through events, or marry your cousin, it's not like you can't beat the system for hours with a wooden club until it works the way we said it would! I'd have no problem with Blitz being paid, if the game functioned without it, and if I hadn't been lied to before launch.
 
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Secondly, as I said before, Paradox said nothing about the battle planner being designed only for planning infantry, and WW1-style frontal offensives, they specifically said that micro-managing panzers is just a personal preference, implying that it's actually capable of handling large-scale panzer operations ... and if I hadn't been lied to before launch.

If you really thought that the Battleplanner would be able to micro your Panzers for you just as good as a player can, then I would say you have unrealistic expectations. Nothing Paradox wrote or said before launch would even "imply" this would be the case in the actual game...

Looking at how HoI3 AI control functioned, and adding in that the focus of how offensives are drawn in HoI4 is not the breakthrough arrow, but the end line you expect all your units to reach, it's not hard to figure out beforehand that the battle-planner would be a tool for broader assaults mainly, and one that will not handle tanks differently from infantry unless you give them different orders.

Having unrealistic expectations on a product =/= "being lied to".
 
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If you really thought that the Battleplanner would be able to micro your Panzers for you just as good as a player can, then I would say you have unrealistic expectations. Nothing Paradox wrote or said before launch would even "imply" this would be the case in the actual game...

Looking at how HoI3 AI control functioned, and adding in that the focus of how offensives are drawn in HoI4 is not the breakthrough arrow, but the end line you expect all your units to reach, it's not hard to figure out beforehand that the battle-planner would be a tool for broader assaults mainly, and one that will not handle tanks differently from infantry unless you give them different orders.

Having unrealistic expectations on a product =/= "being lied to".

Thankfully he did not indicate at any point that he desired human-like decision making from the battleplanner so you can't really say that can you now? The AI's ability to choose a point, any point, in a frontline, concentrate extra forces and push through for maximum damage is hardly unrealistic as well... unreasonable? Maybe. Hopefully with spearhead function AI will be able to do just that.
 
Thankfully he did not indicate at any point that he desired human-like decision making from the battleplanner so you can't really say that can you now?

No I just felt like it was "implied" by the post about equally much as paradox "implied" that the Battleplanner would handle tanks by not saying it wouldn't ;)
 
No I just felt like it was "implied" by the post about equally much as paradox "implied" that the Battleplanner would handle tanks by not saying it wouldn't ;)
Well, PDX implied that battleplanner will work efficiently by not saying player will have to readjust frontline completely every time province is taken ;) And unlike post on forum that implication had a price tag ;)
 
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Well, PDX implied that battleplanner will work efficiently by not saying player will have to readjust frontline completely every time province is taken

And they also implied that the normal battleplan offensives will be improved in the future and for patch 1.3 as well, for free. ( which is natural since the AI uses it aswell so to improve the AI they have to improve it ).

I think it's meaningless for us to keep speculating, we will have to wait and see when the patch hits.
 
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And they also implied that the normal battleplan offensives will be improved in the future and for patch 1.3 as well, for free. ( which is natural since they AI uses it aswell so to improve the AI they have to improve it ).

I think it's meaningless for us to keep speculating, we will have to wait and see when the patch hits.

Yes, they did. That is why when they announced Spearhead is gonna be paid feature general reaction was "WAT?!". Because what is Spearhead if not an improvement people are looking for? Taking that the possibility of pincer attack is presented on the official wiki I presume we can call it "normal".

I am looking forward to see what can be achieved in patch alone though.
 
My argument is that, first off, the battle planner is clunky as hell,

I won't disagree with you there. It took some experiments to find out how to wipe out the Soviets. It was not well documented (or, as others have said, I'm doing something with it the Devs never intended... so go me? Hell, I don't know...), so I understand where you are coming from.

I'm sure that you also had quite a lot of experience with the game assigning 20 divisions to empty, one-province pockets,

Not empty pockets. I've had it be very timid and assign 20 divisions to a pocket with few enemy divisions. But the AI has gotten better about clearing pockets more aggressively than it used to. Of course, I was able to bait 2.5 million Italians to their deaths when the AI tried to "clear" my pocket in southern Italy, but that's the AI for you.

Issues like the game constantly strategically redeploying frontline troops would have come out with some basic testing, and could have been fixed before launch

This is why I don't use field marshals right now (unless I just don't give a damn about a theater). I acknowledge that the AI has the same "division shuffle" problem it has always had. I make front assignments shorter to forestall this issue.

Since the AI also uses the battle-planner, this also means that it's totally incapable of using armoured divisions for what they're good at, or using specialist troops in special circumstances.

I'm not sure the AI could really do it even if it didn't have the battle planner to work with. But that's a different issue in my book.