Hearts of Iron IV - Dev Diary 13 - Conscription & Training

[Bluestreak2k5]

Again you are not understanding. here is what the devs have said about the designer and training.

1) You can modify an existing template to change a light tank battalion to medium or even to ART if you want. It costs XP to do this and applies to all divisions using that template.
2) You can change which template a division uses. This allows you to change a pure INF to MOT for example. This also costs XP.
3) What I don't think you can do is make a template that specifically says to use 1940 medium tanks for example. You just pick medium tanks and can't specify the year.

Now why in the world do you want to automatically use worst unit type, especially in war? I don't care if you are training it up. Once trained it goes off to fight and maybe need to fight as a green unit. From everything shown so far when you build a division it will use the best equipment in storage first. Only if there is not enough equipment will it use older stuff. And this is 100% logical.

I have not seen this specific reference "2) You can change which template a division uses. This allows you to change a pure INF to MOT for example. This also costs XP." I do not see it in the Division template designer thread.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

1) How much equipment stuff break down during training ? Its a small percentage?
2) During real battle percentage of equipments lost is more high?
3) There are factors, techs, or environmental conditions that change the percentage of lost equipment?

From what I recall of the dev stream:

1. Training is one source of attrition losses, and attrition loss is scaled by reliability. So it would make sense to emphasize reliability a lot on equipment you intend to use mostly for training.
2. I expect it would be, but there are surely a lot of factors involved (who you are fighting, under what conditions, etc).
3. Units can also take attrition from the environment, like too hot or too cold. So training under these conditions would probably add to the attrition.

 

[jju_57]

I have not seen this specific reference "2) You can change which template a division uses. This allows you to change a pure INF to MOT for example. This also costs XP." I do not see it in the Division template designer thread.

See this post: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?783017-Hearts-of-Iron-IV-Dev-Diary-6-Division-Design&p=17560607&viewfull=1#post17560607

It was my assumption that it would cost XP but every other division changes costs XP so it makes sense. But I could be wrong on the XP cost part.

 

[jju_57]

I think that if item A is above item B on the queue, then item A has first crack at whatever equipment is available. So if the two items "upgrades" and "reinforcements" are above a new division in the queue, then deployed divisions will have first call on the new equipment, and the queued division will have to use whatever is left. So if your field divisions are turning in their Panzer II's for Panzer III's, then your new divisions in training will probably fill up with Panzer II's, because that is the best that is still available to them.

Probably there will also be a way of setting upgrade priority among the deployed divisions, at least in a rough way (prioritized, normal, don't upgrade). So if you don't want newbs hogging all the best equipment, make sure they are below the upgrade and reinforcement queue items, and once they are deployed, don't let them upgrade until they have completed training.

Well my guess is it depends. There is a priority button on the screen on page one.

So who gets the brand new tanks will depend on a combination of things. Priority, place in queue, reinforcements etc.

 

[Razor]

Thanks for the update Podcat!

I have a question that is important for me and I hope you could answer it:

Will it be possibel to alter the manpower pool and the daily manpower increase by editing province files or the save game file? In HOI II it was easy. In HOI III it was difficult (I found it impossible).

 

[misterbean]

very nice. I like it.

 

[Darkath]

Even if hoi3 never existed, or did but never had any OOB it would still seem like a functional tool for hoi4. Just the ability to tie together some armies intended for a specific task could potentially make overview and handling easier. Ugly mock-up:

Thanks Joppos i'll take ten of those please

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

See this post: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?783017-Hearts-of-Iron-IV-Dev-Diary-6-Division-Design&p=17560607&viewfull=1#post17560607

It was my assumption that it would cost XP but every other division changes costs XP so it makes sense. But I could be wrong on the XP cost part.

I don't necessarily agree with that assumption because of what XP is meant to represent (things learned during war on what works and doesn't work, and using this to improve your military).

If I want to have a division of 4X INF, 4X ART, 4X Medium tanks, and switch that to 3X INF, 6X ART, 3X Medium Tanks Theoretically speaking the Tank battalion would be reassigned somewhere else and take their training with them, while being assigned 2 new INF battalions. There isn't really anything that your needing to learn to do in the command.

As for real world examples, the US and Germany used older models of planes and submarines to train aboard first, and then were reassigned to new models after completing training. In fact even today the US has "training" F-16's, F-18's, etc and then combat models. They are actually completely different models and great changes made, as the "training" models are usually the first group of planes or Model A and the new combat units would be like Model F or G.

So I would argue it's more realistic to be able to assign your older models for training if that's what you want to do.

 

[Secret Master]

I see the strategic choice you are pointing at here, SM, but still sincerely hope that there will be some xp-hit (in the changed units) for changing equipment. Else it would feel kind of gamey and not realistic. I mean, i couldnt help imaging soldiers going from PzI to Tiger and act as if everything was the same. I have been driving cars for ~2 decades now, but never an automatic - i am still totally green with that. Now, sure, this XP-hit shouldnt destroy the choice you are pointing at, but it should nevertheless be.

EDIT: Maybe 10% per tier, or so.

EDIT2: I feel like this is gonna be quite micro-heavy, btw.

An XP hit would be okay. But there is a huge difference between "Guy has never driven a tank before" and "Professional soldier has a year of training on driving tanks, but now has to learn to drive a new one."

And every military organization I can think of uses older equipment for training. Sometimes its just older versions of the same item, but using up older equipment for training isn't that weird.

Now why in the world do you want to automatically use worst unit type, especially in war? I don't care if you are training it up. Once trained it goes off to fight and maybe need to fight as a green unit. From everything shown so far when you build a division it will use the best equipment in storage first. Only if there is not enough equipment will it use older stuff. And this is 100% logical.

I guess the DD wasn't clear on what happens to recycled manpower. In HOI3, if you upgrade MIL to INF or MAR, it keeps its XP. What about HOI4? If I have an infantry division trained to regular, does it become green when it becomes motorized? What about going from LARM to ARM?

And the answers to these questions might provide insight into what I'd like to know.

 

[RabbidHamster]

Even if hoi3 never existed, or did but never had any OOB it would still seem like a functional tool for hoi4. Just the ability to tie together some armies intended for a specific task could potentially make overview and handling easier. Ugly mock-up:

I'll take 10 as well... oh hell, make it a dozen...

That would be a very functional tool, as well as add just a little more flavor to the game.

 

[seattle]

On-map training
You can train units on the map when deployed as well and this basically simulates large-scale exercises and war games. Soldiers trained on the map can reach up to Regular status. For Seasoned and Veterans you need to see actual combat. To get these more well trained troops you will now start looking at some trade-offs. Training on the map costs equipment for every day of training as rifles, tanks and other stuff breaks down, so if you are trying to build up a stockpile of arms for an offensive you might need to hold back on training to keep your storage filled. As a side bonus training on the map give you Army Experience (See Diary 6) which you will want if you plan to restructure any of the division templates it is built on. As an example, as Germany, if you want to start using medium tank divisions as well light tanks you will need to run some training exercises to unlock enough experience to either create a fresh new template or modify the existing one to use medium tanks rather than the old light Panzer Is etc. This also gives nations like the USA a way of restructuring their army before the war assuming they want to spend the time and equipment on exercises.

This on-map training feature sounds like a pretty bad idea. It hat some serious micromanagement-hell potential. Say you got some spare outdated equipment. Ideally you would select like 5 divs for 3 months of on-map training to spend your surplus equipment while gaining some XP.
It just sounds like a mini-game that doesn't fit at all into the general game concept.

 

[jju_57]

There are two different types of XP in HOI4 and I think that confuses people.

1) XP that a soldier in a division earns. These are the ones Podcat listed as green, trained etc.
2) XP that a country earns and these are like the political points that you spend to change templates etc.

So to switch a division from INF to MOT will cost country XP just as it would if you modified the template. It does not impact the XP of the division which is soldier based.

They have confirmed that it costs country XP to modify a template. And they have confirmed that a division can change templates. It was my guess, and a very logical one, that it would cost country XP to change which template a division is using, which is different then changing the template.

This on-map training feature sounds like a pretty bad idea. It hat some serious micromanagement-hell potential.

Huh? It sounds like it couldn't be easier. Just select a few divisions by drawing box around them and clicking on the train button. The training stops automatically. What micro-hell is that?

 

[podcat]

It just seems like a small price to pay for literally better units ( granted I don't know how much equipment it will consume ) and the mechanic seems to heavily favour a nation like say the USA.
Was hope for maybe something like a big Org decrease while in "training mode" or something along that line.

Org gets nuked from orbit while training, so yeah it could be risky if enemy is nearby

Will the amount of on map training be affected by conscription laws?

not the amount, but how long it takes.

1. Does population grow enough to affect gameplay during the time period? 12 years is not a lot of time to see huge changes, but if we have timeline extensions it might be a factor.
2. Is population affected by immigration or refugees?
3. Does nationality play any significant (i.e. modeled ingame) role? Occupied/annexed territory, Foreign Legion(s) and partisans are what I'm most interested in.
4. Is population affected by social policies or civil improvements? Sadly, eugenics was pretty popular at the time. On a more positive note, the Baby Boomers are the children of the returned WWII veterans, a population boost which stimulated growth after the war.
5. Does experience retain when sending men back home after the war? I'm thinking of a WWII -> Korean War situation.
6. Is the role of women modeled somehow? A huge amount of factories were staffed by women and the Red Army had women volunteers.
7. Can we control the amount of allocated manpower in a brigade/division? Not all countries had the same number of men in a division, and I think adding fewer brigades to a template is not enough to model this.
8. Specialist divisions - how do they work?
8.1 Mountain/marine divisions - how does brigade composition affect bonuses? Can I add a super heavy tank brigade to marines and still have amphibious assault bonuses? (I hope the limitations are clear and logical)
8.2 Paratroopers - What brigades can I put and still paradrop them?
8.3 Special forces (Rangers, SAS, etc... ) - are they modelled/worth modelling? I can understand not having a specialised brigade of Rangers, but maybe you can make it clear that if I do a certain "recipe" of brigades I will get something with the end result as close as possible to a historical Ranger division.
8.4 Helicopters? - not quite in the timeline, but any special info on them?
9. Supply and transport planes - how do they work?
10. How do secret weapons/projects affect units?

Thank you for the information.

1. there is some small growth as well
2. no
3. yes. we'll go over occupation and partisans it in another diary
4. no
5. a disbanded division loses its experience
6. right now its not modeled, or is modeled abstracted. we might add something though, we'll see
7. no. I think controling battalion count is plenty of control and ok model
8. they have longer training times
8.1 tanks have huge penalties to amphib operations, you can mix them but it makes everything shittier at amphib
8.2 paratroopers only mix with other paras, if you add tanks they are not droppable
8.3 you can sort of make your own by designating elite templates and stuff. its some new things we have been playing around with that I might show at a later point
8.4 no helicopters during period as you said. maybe some time extension or advancement dlc some day?
9 + 10 sneeky, well you'll have to wait for later diaries

we are tryign to keep population simple. this isnt Victoria 2. we just need a roughly historical number for areas to base laws around.

Hey podcat can you comment on the upgrade mechanic in the screenshot? What kind of impacts on experience when switching from say panzer Is to panzer IIs? Can we upgrade a light tank brigade into a medium tank brigade? What impact does this have on training? What about changing existing divisions to conform to a new template?

right now there is no experience loss. generally new stuff operates a lot like the older or is just plain better, and people quite often train with older stuff, so I dont think its actually something worth considering as factor. From what i'v read people just welcomed new stuff and had little trouble adapting, these are experienced soldiers already.

Wow, this is like a lot of what we have been dreaming about here on the forums

Thanks We do listen and I thought you would like it.

Is Lee Marvin the leader of Podcat's Roughnecks?

of course, who else?

Hello,

Questions:

1) Does your officer/general gets experience too when training troops?

2) Can I disband a trained unit to re-deploy it green so I can train them again to get "infinite" army experience?

3) Can we see enemy units training on the border, or lets say without fog of war? It would mean a great time to attack...

4) Can we train nukes? Hehehehe...

5) Is it preferable to train units in highly infrastructure province to reduce reinforcement cost?

Best regards,

1. no, imo we assume commands already know the basics and some exercises wont really help one way or the other
2. technically yes, but while you waste all your equipment on training to get some XP the enemy is building actual tanks to fight you with
3. yes
4. yeah nukes gain experience, sadly it only has it for a fraction of a second as it detonates
5. no difference

"Training on the map costs equipment for every day of training as rifles, tanks and other stuff breaks down, so if you are trying to build up a stockpile of arms for an offensive you might need to hold back on training to keep your storage filled."

Some question about consumed equipments during training, and during real battles.

1) How much equipment stuff break down during training ? Its a small percentage?
2) During real battle percentage of equipments lost is more high?
3) There are factors, techs, or environmental conditions that change the percentage of lost equipment?

Nice DD.

1. yes, but over time it can become a bigger amound
2. yes, lots of losses of equipment in battles
3. yes. harsh climate or moving in tough terrain increase problems.

I guess the DD wasn't clear on what happens to recycled manpower. In HOI3, if you upgrade MIL to INF or MAR, it keeps its XP. What about HOI4? If I have an infantry division trained to regular, does it become green when it becomes motorized? What about going from LARM to ARM?

right now there is no xp loss. me might add one if it becomes a problem.

 

[dizzle3]

Does training increase threat towards neighbours?

 

[Centurion1973]

Is there really no training for pilots and ships?

If there isnt any training for air force and navy at peace, if there some other way to get Air and Naval Experience?

IRL deploying poorly trained pilots resulted in much worse performance in combat.

 

[jdavis86]

Units doing push ups on maps?

Sheesh guys talk about immersion breaking.

*cough* counters *cough*

 

[Daelyn75]

Podcat, are you creating your dream WWII Grand Strategy Game here or what?

 

[Denkt]

IRL deploying poorly trained pilots resulted in much worse performance in combat.

Its is probably abstracted into the production cost of the aircraft.
Aircrafts themself can't get experience, probably beacuse it would not work with how the game model air warfare.

If I understand correctly ships can get experience like division but it can be a gameplay choice here more then anything else as navy are the hardest thing to build up.

 

[Centurion1973]

Its is probably abstracted into the production cost of the aircraft.
Aircrafts themself can't get experience, probably beacuse it would not work with how the game model air warfare.

If I understand correctly ships can get experience like division but it can be a gameplay choice here more then anything else as navy are the hardest thing to build up.

Game need some way to differentiate whether aircraft are being flown by green pilots or well trained veteran.

IRL nations were often able to produce aircraft much faster, than train pilots. Examples of that are Battle of Britain, Japanese and German airforces in 44 and 45.

 

[Denkt]

IRL nations were often able to produce aircraft much faster, than train pilots. Examples of that are Battle of Britain, Japanese and German airforces in 44 and 45.

It will probably cost alot more to produce aircraft in game then it did in RL like you will be able to build BB in 2 years instead of 3 and 4.