[WtWSMS] Suggestions/Ideas

[loup99]

Hi
Yours mod looks fantastic. Great epic work!!!
But I have little question. Are you going to add more vassals to the existing realms in the future? I know that is very little information about the characters in this era but You can add some ahistorical characters.
This can give more capabilities in the game and make game harder at the beginning.

Yes, slowly but surely we are most likely going to do it.

How are you going to handle the Roman navies? The western navy more or less disappeared after Majorian failed to retake Carthage. The Vandals are known to have raided the coast of Italy, and I believe they eventually took Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearic islands. The eastern navy remained a force to be reckoned with until 1204, thanks in part to the introduction of Greek Fire in the mid 600's. There were permanent fleets of probably 50-80 ships each based at Constantinople, Alexandria and Ravenna at all times, with smaller flotillas based at Carthage, Sicily, Tripoli, Cherson and Septem. The entire navy probably numbered 300 ships at its height under Justinian, declining to around 150 ships after the loss of the east.

Well, with buildings built in the Eastern Empire, most likely.

I took the liberty of making a different and possibly more accurate flag for the Kingdom of Rheged. It is taken from the reported coat of arms of Urien Rheged (whose dynasty implementing would be a nice addition), a 6th century king of Rheged.
I believe it is a better choice than a random lion-toting coat of arms.
It fits quite good on the character page. The ravens are a bit chopped off by the fancy CoA borders on the political map though.

Screen: http://i.imgur.com/ZR9LNAs.png
File: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B286Ik2m8jxkX1BGZHlyY2RjSXM/view?usp=sharing
And here's a Wiki article about Urien and some minor genealogy of his: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urien

Thank you! Will probably implement this for the next version.

I don't know what you want to do with this but it seems there was a lot of immigration from Ireland to South West Wales between 350-400 (possibly of Roman foederati) which eventually became Brythonic again. I think there was enough migration to warrant the culture there being Gaelic but ruled by a Briton by the late 5th century.

Ok, noted.

You should nerf Odoacer, he has too many soldiers and Theodoric barely wins in my games. And I would suggest a decisions for the Romans (Eastern/Western/Unified) to make your capital Rome. And a second decisions to rebuild the greeatnes of the city. And I would like to ask is there a decision to restore the Western Empire as a Hellenic ?

Yes, the balance around Italy is not the best and will have to be relooked. The mod is not really supposed to be Hellenic Revival 2.0, for that you have Ancient Religions or Lux Invicta. Hellenics won't really be prioritised before the mod is very complete and so on, but we can always take suggesions. Same for the Roman empire restoration, except for the decision to move the capital, as it is more realistical.

It's probably too highly developed militarily. There weren't many native troops left in the west after Julius Nepos took over. The western army ought to be made up mainly of foederati levies, with a small cavalry retinue or mercenary unit of a few thousand men to represent the Scholae Palatinae. The total number of troops in the western army probably shouldn't exceed 20,000, 75% of which should be under Odacer (Orestes was only able to raise 4,000 men to oppose Odacer, who had at least twice that).

Whoever owns Italy at the time seems to be OP for some reason.

Sadly, CK2 doesn't model depopulation well... at all. I recommended tuning down levies so that it would take at least 20 years for levies to replenish, to force the Roman Empires to use mercenaries and a potential foederati system and to allow events like the rise of Islam to happen against a weakened Roman or Persian Empire, but for whatever reason the nerf that was applied hasn't really succeeded in that (I'm not sure if the nerf is even there due to him having deleted one of the beta builds... which is why old features like the legions system and certain culture groupings are only being re-implemented now. )

It could be done through a new set of laws covering the army. When I wanted to represent the decline of Byzantium in the 1300's I introduced a "Theme System" law which had three options, Inactive Themes (-50% from tax and levies), Degraded Themes (Does nothing) and Active Themes (+20 to tax and levies). I gave the Inactive law to Byzantium from 1185 to 1204, and again from 1282 to 1453. It weakened Byzantium to the degree it was IRL during those periods, and a requirement of a skill level of 8 in the stewardship and martial skills stopped players from just changing it back when they started. I'd recommend going with a new law similar to this "Army Organisation" or something similar. I'd give it three options, Low Organisation (-50% from tax and levies), Medium Organisation (Does nothing) and High Organisation (+20% to tax and levies). The western empire and post-Sassanid Wars/pre-Arab Wars Byzantium would begin with Low, Byzantium would have Medium from 480 to the loss of the east to the Sassanids, and High from the time of Constans II to Constantine X. The "High" option would represent the themes and be restricted unless an emperor reformed the government/army by a special decision (Which would only be available to high martial emperors).

I'm not sure how fast are the levy reinforcement rates in the mod, but making them start with depleted levies - or even with levies 1/4 filled, but also with halved garrisons to ensure the levies don't get much reinforcement too fast - sounds like a good idea to me.

Yes, the imperial levies and armies will have to be balaced, modified and tweaked. Laws are god solution to it too. Levy reinforcements are bit unbalanced.

I'm just curious on where the Imalcus and titles like that came from to start. Tried looking that up but couldn't find anything.

Enlil is behind those, he knows that better than me.

Shouldn't Kemetiks have multiple wives instead of concubines? I know the info about the pharaohs is out of the game's time frame, but I read about the pharaohs having several 'consorts' or 'wives' as opposed to 'concubines'. It seems like they should be able to marry close kin as well, Ahmose I married his sister, for instance.

Noted, but isn't this a bit more related to culture?

When looking to the gothic wars bookmark, I noticed for the greatest Sassanid, Khosro I Anushirvan, particulary bad stats... 1 in learning! An aberation for this philosopher-emperor! So, I sugest to give him very good stats.

For exemple:
Diplomacy: 15
Martial: 12
Stewarship: 21
Intrigue: 11
Learning: 20
Education: Mastermind Theologian/Midas Touched
Traits: Administrator/Scholar; Just; Quick; Diligent; Sympathy for Indians; Sympathy for Christendom; Sympathy for Pagans

Noted, I think the stats you looked at were random.

I suggest that germanic pagans sea raiding should be nerfed to be the same as other pagans and add a 2nd germanic religion "norse" that appears by event near the viking age that allows those people to do this kind of raiding.

The early Anglo-Saxon pirates were probably as effective if not more effective raiders than the Vikings. This is evident by the amount of effort the Romans did to try and keep them at bay (building province wide "Saxon" Sea Forts etc) as well as the accounts of Gildas and other writers at the time. They periodically laid waste to the coasts of Britannia.

Early ANGLO SAXON pirates. Not all the german cultures united in swarming every AI plus the player with raids.

It's ridiculous being in the eastern mediterranean and having multiple stacks of 2000+ raiders at once on that land from every civilization of northern europe. It's gamey. Western Mediterranean is even worse.

Have you not played and seen this behavior by the AI? It destroys AI nations.

Also keep in mind there is no ship combat in this game.

I stand solidly by my suggestion. A couple of small anglo saxon settlements not being able to raid across the map at the start of the game is not outweighed by all germanic nations being able to do apocalypse level civilization destroying raids on every medium size and smaller nation.

I second this. I'm watching Odoacer right now being bombarded by about half a dozen raiders. Would be nice if it was toned down some.

Ya it's even worse considering the AI doesn't know how to deal with all those raiders. I won wars based on the AI having to fight off a half a dozen or more stacks of raiders ignoring me while I creep to 100%.

Well, those levies will definetly have to be tweaked.

 

[Sphem]

Hey i know this is because the mod was started way before charlemange came out but a way to nerf a bunch of these countries is to go off the holdings in charlemange because in rome in charlemange i know all6 holdings arent built. But that might create a problem because the roman sentate needs holdings but Its just something ive noticed

 

[loup99]

Hey i know this is because the mod was started way before charlemange came out but a way to nerf a bunch of these countries is to go off the holdings in charlemange because in rome in charlemange i know all6 holdings arent built. But that might create a problem because the roman sentate needs holdings but Its just something ive noticed

Well, some holdings were modified in the 480-769 period too. Europe went from relatively urbanised (atleast in Italy) with the roman empire, to a rural population, so some additional holdings may be accurate.

 

[mrstevehazzard]

Noted, but isn't this a bit more related to culture?

Yeah, true. I'm just so used to the vanilla game where religion is the catalyst in all that kind of stuff, as opposed to culture.

 

[Fincap]

I suggest you distribute the vast majority of these provinces to other places in the world.

Unless you've already talked about this, this is stupidly unjustified and a waste of provinces.

 

[Gurluas]

I suggest you distribute the vast majority of these provinces to other places in the world.
View attachment 121742
Unless you've already talked about this, this is stupidly unjustified and a waste of provinces.

I disagree, Garamantes was a powerful nation, even in these times. It would be hard to make it one with only few provinces, and without breaking lore, such as raising tech levels or infrastructure.

 

[Ofaloaf]

I disagree, Garamantes was a powerful nation, even in these times. It would be hard to make it one with only few provinces, and without breaking lore, such as raising tech levels or infrastructure.

Not being conquered by the Romans doesn't mean that they were a powerful nation with levy sizes comparable to Rome.

 

[Gurluas]

Not being conquered by the Romans doesn't mean that they were a powerful nation with levy sizes comparable to Rome.

Read the lore on them, they were very advanced.
And their tech levels are lower than Rome, plus they have different cultures within them, so there are plenty of revolts. Rome could conquer them if it wanted to.

 

[PseudoCatfish]

I suggest you distribute the vast majority of these provinces to other places in the world.
View attachment 121742
Unless you've already talked about this, this is stupidly unjustified and a waste of provinces.

It's to prevent the easy conwuest of the Sahara and allow for more Berber and Arab nations. The garamantes and other Aftican peoples attention getting nerfed hard economically and politically to represent the historical situation.... The garamantes will have their buildings weakened and be divided into tiny city-states, for example.

 

[loup99]

Suggestion:

Build a template for a melting pot event, and directions how to implement it and a new culture as a submod.

Reasoning: There's going to be a shitton of possible melting pots that make sense in one game but not another. Allowing users to customize and personalize these easily enough might make the game more enjoyable.

That way, if the Old Frisians conquer a Latin country, Latinize, then move over to Eygpt to become Misrable (The heat there, ugh), we don't have to account for it in the full game but allows a user to build that in.

Oh, yes that can be made, but the new culture would still require names and etc, and be incredibly shallow with no flavour.

I suggest you distribute the vast majority of these provinces to other places in the world.
View attachment 121742
Unless you've already talked about this, this is stupidly unjustified and a waste of provinces.

We have talked about it previously and it is WAD in the main mod. If you are unhappy with that, you can make your own sub-mod.

I disagree, Garamantes was a powerful nation, even in these times. It would be hard to make it one with only few provinces, and without breaking lore, such as raising tech levels or infrastructure.

Not being conquered by the Romans doesn't mean that they were a powerful nation with levy sizes comparable to Rome.

Read the lore on them, they were very advanced.
And their tech levels are lower than Rome, plus they have different cultures within them, so there are plenty of revolts. Rome could conquer them if it wanted to.

It's to prevent the easy conwuest of the Sahara and allow for more Berber and Arab nations. The garamantes and other Aftican peoples attention getting nerfed hard economically and politically to represent the historical situation.... The garamantes will have their buildings weakened and be divided into tiny city-states, for example.

We will weaken them, but not modify the provinces at the moment.

 

[maltsefalcon204]

Speaking of the crimean goths, is there a chance in giving the 50 year old ruler a son as he usually dies pretty quick and that's end game.

 

[djtjj]

It might be worthwhile to give independent roman-cultured rulers the "subjugate" CB over any other independent-roman culture rulers, with the exception of the ERE, this would make it easier for any players trying to unite the rump state remnants of the old western empire to do so, and it could be given a significant cool-down meaning it can't be easily abused. (Imagine using it to get a "foothold" in Britannia by taking a single duchy, and having to wade through various contrived casus beli trying to unite it under roman rule again, the behemoth task that it should remain.)

This CB should be turned off when there exists an emperor in the west, and given exclusively to him, and distributed to all Romans when there isn't.

 

[AdanRyder]

The Tuareg portraits should prob be applied to the East African cultures as well. They use the standard West African gfx right now.

The Solomonids rule the Cushites with Somali culture, even though they were Ethiopian. They should be in Aksum if anywhere.

 

[Erik W]

Even though Im a developer myself, I would like to raise a suggestion:

A generic Invasion CB.

Everyone should have the ability to invade another country without a reason! Especially for the Romans (or Christians in general), so that they do not have to expand only on Holy Wars, even though that never happens (if Syagrius declares war on Clovis, then within 3 months we have the Thuringians, Alemanni, the Frisians and Saxons all crashing in). Useful also for Hellenics too.

 

[DC123456789]

Noted. So you want the Solomnonids ruling Aksium instead of the Cushites?

That's correct. Your rulers are right but they have the wrong dynasty, they should be the Solomonids. Not sure who exactly should be ruling the Cushites, but I believe that the Somalis at this point were essentially independent trade-based city-states.

Rennes should probably be Romano-Gallic at this point; I'm also skeptical about the large swath of Gallic in Normandy and Anjou. Where did you get that from?
You could probably also make a case that the main Armorican kingdoms (Kernew, Domnonea, and Broerec) had formed by now rather than having Gallic tribes there. Where did you get your rulers from?

Strathcylde's capital should also rather obviously be at Clydesdale/Alt Clut.

As well, have you considered editing the era selection screen so that your three shown bookmarks are centred?

 

[loup99]

Speaking of the crimean goths, is there a chance in giving the 50 year old ruler a son as he usually dies pretty quick and that's end game.

Well, if he is already ahistorical, it seems like a good idea, but if there is a reason for him not having a son we will keep it like now.

Probably just copy over the names list from one culture or another.

Might consider a generic 'cultural group' retinue and building, so if you're latin_culture_group but not latin/roman/french/etc... That'd help that out some.

Oh, yes that could be done. If it is a demand, we can always make a txt file+ the corresponding that you could alter in order to get your melting-pot, but it won't be our biggest priority.

Even though Im a developer myself, I would like to raise a suggestion:

A generic Invasion CB.

Everyone should have the ability to invade another country without a reason! Especially for the Romans (or Christians in general), so that they do not have to expand only on Holy Wars, even though that never happens (if Syagrius declares war on Clovis, then within 3 months we have the Thuringians, Alemanni, the Frisians and Saxons all crashing in). Useful also for Hellenics too.

Well, not sure on this, it would mostly destroy the balance with huge empires forming. Hellenics should not be able to invade people.

It might be worthwhile to give independent roman-cultured rulers the "subjugate" CB over any other independent-roman culture rulers, with the exception of the ERE, this would make it easier for any players trying to unite the rump state remnants of the old western empire to do so, and it could be given a significant cool-down meaning it can't be easily abused. (Imagine using it to get a "foothold" in Britannia by taking a single duchy, and having to wade through various contrived casus beli trying to unite it under roman rule again, the behemoth task that it should remain.)

This CB should be turned off when there exists an emperor in the west, and given exclusively to him, and distributed to all Romans when there isn't.

Not sure on this either, because historically it never really happened. We are especially wanting you to restore/unite the remnants of the roman empire, that should be a challenge.

The Tuareg portraits should prob be applied to the East African cultures as well. They use the standard West African gfx right now.

The Solomonids rule the Cushites with Somali culture, even though they were Ethiopian. They should be in Aksum if anywhere.

Noted. So you want the Solomnonids ruling Aksium instead of the Cushites?

I did suggest on the main thread, but because there is now a sub-forum and noticed a thread for this on here, I thought it be okay if I can repeat it and give you some suggestion

I think you need to rework the Gothic culture, evidently, it be a better idea for now to make a culture group based solely on the Goths, considering it split into different subgroups of the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and Crimean Goths, which were derived from the main Goth culture
Another suggestion is adding fictional but feasible dynasty names when new Gothic nobility emerge (I've actually been playing as a Goth, and the only dynasty I've seen is Crimling, so its really confusing when you have 5 Crimling dynasties), which is actually sort of easy if you look up the etymology of them. For example, the Amalings and Baltings came from the founder of the dynasty, respectively Amal and Balt, so in theory, you can just can just use the first or second nymic name of a Goth, which I'll prove some links to help you.

Not sure how you would implant this idea, it takes away the Historicity, but Gothic nobility information is pretty scant in my opinion to find. Also I really dont know how you would add this, I honestly dont know jack about modding or adding new dynastic names in a culture, but maybe a suggestion can help you out

Here are some links
http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/post/41078
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/gothic-l/conversations/messages/7305
http://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/2hwehe/old_gothic_namelist_for_charlemagne_dlc/

I also found this around the forums, maybe it would help the main Gothic subculture, considering its somewhat a bit scant compared to the Visigoths or Ostrogoths
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...w-Cultures&p=15651313&viewfull=1#post15651313

.This probably won't happen... the Visigoths have been romanized too thoroughly by now to merit their inclusion in any group besides Latin and that would leave us two cultures in the Gothic group.

Actually three because theres Goths, Crimean Goths, and Ostrogoths

Too Romanized by the late 5th century? They'd only just started settling in Roman territory a century prior to the mod's start date, and were having problems keeping the Romanized population in Hispania pacified. The Consularia Caesaraugustana mentions some sort of Roman-headed revolt against the Goths in 496, another one in 506, and there's the Bacaudae of the mid-5th century. At the same time, Alaric II was out happily supporting Theodoric's campaigns in Italy, and Visigothic-Ostrogothic relations led almost to a merger of the two realms under Theodoric himself.

Why should the Visigoths be in the same culture group as the peoples who were still actively revolting against them during this time, and be in an entirely different culture group from their clear cultural kinsmen and with whom they maintained good relations during the period?

We were advised by a PhD student who was giving his doctorate on the Gothic successor states. I'll edit this when I find his post but it was pretty convincing... enough for us to change them from germanic to latin.

Even though Im a developer myself, I would like to raise a suggestion:

A generic Invasion CB.

Everyone should have the ability to invade another country without a reason! Especially for the Romans (or Christians in general), so that they do not have to expand only on Holy Wars, even though that never happens (if Syagrius declares war on Clovis, then within 3 months we have the Thuringians, Alemanni, the Frisians and Saxons all crashing in). Useful also for Hellenics too.

I'd very much like to see this! Given that the Visigoths even elected an Ostrogoth as their king in the 6th century, I really want to see the argument for Visigoths being culturally closer to Romans than Ostrogoths.

He actually advised us to do that too, and that is the reason for the existence of the Romano-Gothic culture and Theodoric being a part of it. He actually sadly stopped contributing to the mod after Enlil refused to give Theodoric the title of Western Roman Emperor, arguing that he was in every way as much a successor as the Illyro-Roman emperors were before him and almost succeeded as well as they did in restoring Rome, with arguments tat direct rule over Hispania, legitimacy based on the Senate and hegemony over Africa post-Vouille were sure signs of it, which is incredibly sad since he was arguably the most knowledgeable forumite I have ever had the pleasure of reading. (If you are reading this KingdomofWales, pls come back.)

Here are some of his arguments:

On Theodoric and the Pannonian Goths


On "Barbarian" Europe


I agree with him on practically every point, and if melting pots were working we would have had an already latinized Ostrogoths and Visigoths, with the Romano-Vandals following suit so by the 500's they're writing in Latin and are practically "Roman" anyway. The Burgundians for whatever reason aren't represented as latinized either despite leaders like Gundobad basically being foederati and their people being settled in Roman lands and Romanized for generations, but I'm not in charge of those things and am a newcomer to the mod and modding anyway.

Theodoric is latinized in-game and has Romano-gothic culture; arguably the rest of the Ostrogoths should be as well.

Edit: You also seem to be one of the few people offering historical criticism and we thank you for that. I am no historian by trade, and I doubt anybody in the team is pursuing their masters or PhD in history either, so the mod is the result of the collective research and knowledge of us and the forumites, and learning new things about late antiquity is what got me following the mod in the first place. Thanks for that and to all the others contributing!

I will let this discussion go on and if you decide for something, add it in the OP. Also, a lot of the historical contributions/suggestions has been done in PM. PseudoCatFish, on the French forum, I have atleast two-three people that have a lot of knowledge about history and etc, has done studies about this peroid. Whenever I announce that we are ready to start doing the "Rise of Islam"-startdate, they will jump at it.

That's correct. Your rulers are right but they have the wrong dynasty, they should be the Solomonids. Not sure who exactly should be ruling the Cushites, but I believe that the Somalis at this point were essentially independent trade-based city-states.

Ok, noted.

Rennes should probably be Romano-Gallic at this point; I'm also skeptical about the large swath of Gallic in Normandy and Anjou. Where did you get that from?
You could probably also make a case that the main Armorican kingdoms (Kernew, Domnonea, and Broerec) had formed by now rather than having Gallic tribes there. Where did you get your rulers from?

Rennes and Nantes are planned changes, they will also join Soissons. Not sure on from were the Gallic culture was, but that is Enlil who made it, I believe Ols mentioned it earlier in the main thread and Enlil answered, not sure. The rulers are from nowhere, Enlil simply divided the unified Armorica into petty tribes as an historian had suggested (without any more details).

Strathcylde's capital should also rather obviously be at Clydesdale/Alt Clut.

Noted. Also, in the Britannia era, we are going to do the suggested changes mentioned after the preview of that area.

As well, have you considered editing the era selection screen so that your three shown bookmarks are centred?

Is it possible? Romulien who did it simply used the AGoT model and adapted it.

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

Regarding Mecca at game start, why is it ruled by Hashimids, when Hashim isn't a ruler yet? Hashim is the grandson of Abd Manaf, the son of the ruler of Mecca at game-start. Am I mistaken in believing that the Qurayza of Yathrib are meant to represent Quraysh? Why are Quraysh in Yathrib not Mecca?

 

[loup99]

Regarding Mecca at game start, why is it ruled by Hashimids, when Hashim isn't a ruler yet? Hashim is the grandson of Abd Manaf, the son of the ruler of Mecca at game-start. Am I mistaken in believing that the Qurayza of Yathrib are meant to represent Quraysh? Why are Quraysh in Yathrib not Mecca?

Zusk did that setup, and is sadly not present in the forum for the moment. The dynasty is probably named Hashimids because they are all parents of Hashim, and for gameplay that setup might be better.

 

[Ofaloaf]

Why do you have Soissons so large and all-encompassing? Going by Penny MacGeorge, there's at least a few other attested warlords in the area, like a "Hubaldus, Pagan Tyrant of Rouen" who she cited from The Life of St. Germanus, although I can't find a copy of that handy to double-check and verify myself. The Comes Castrodunensis (Châteaudun, which is in Vendome in-game iirc) and Comes Blaesensis are also found in some addenda to the PLRE, and I think ol' Apollinaris wrote a letter to them, although I'm struggling to find it.

Given how quickly Soissons folded in 486, does it make sense for them to be so large and powerful in-game? Surely a more apt interpretation that would gel with the mechanics and make the Frankish takeover of Soissons more feasible would be to make Soissons one of at least a few warlords in northern Gaul. As above, there are other attested non-Frankish lords in the area, and the possibility of there being others who simply were mentioned in documents that haven't been saved isn't out of the question. Splintering Soissons gives more playable characters in northern Gaul, makes the Merovingian victory in 486 more feasible in-game and fits in with current ideas regarding what was what in sub-Roman Gaul.

 

[loup99]

Why do you have Soissons so large and all-encompassing? Going by Penny MacGeorge, there's at least a few other attested warlords in the area, like a "Hubaldus, Pagan Tyrant of Rouen" who she cited from The Life of St. Germanus, although I can't find a copy of that handy to double-check and verify myself. The Comes Castrodunensis (Châteaudun, which is in Vendome in-game iirc) and Comes Blaesensis are also found in some addenda to the PLRE, and I think ol' Apollinaris wrote a letter to them, although I'm struggling to find it.

Given how quickly Soissons folded in 486, does it make sense for them to be so large and powerful in-game? Surely a more apt interpretation that would gel with the mechanics and make the Frankish takeover of Soissons more feasible would be to make Soissons one of at least a few warlords in northern Gaul. As above, there are other attested non-Frankish lords in the area, and the possibility of there being others who simply were mentioned in documents that haven't been saved isn't out of the question. Splintering Soissons gives more playable characters in northern Gaul, makes the Merovingian victory in 486 more feasible in-game and fits in with current ideas regarding what was what in sub-Roman Gaul.

Good idea, those could be vassals to Soissons. I think it is good to keep them like this, but more decentalised, as they did not have an absolute authourity over the realm. It makes it easy to simulate the Franks by an invasion and it adds more playables.