Genpei War

[GShock]

+1 chat - you have my backing on this!

And mine. I think Chat had best work on the Genpei mod the way he feels appropriate. I can't help much with modding as I explained but from my other post in help request for modding parameters you can see what's wrong imo in the game in Sengoku period. There are things to mod in the honor/attitude/income/troop numbers/attrition/castle-province limiters that once modded would make the game 10 times better.

But... and again ... did they add some way to stop all provinces developing to 100% castles and agriculture?

 

[Tatsunoshi]

...but I would like to say the Genpei and Nanbokucho periods were also dynamic and fascinating eras.

Yes, they are-I'd say they're far more interesting than the Sengoku period, which quite frankly has been done to death in the West and has gotten boring (at least for me). Unfortunately, many people feel uncomfortable getting out of their comfort zone in the Sengoku that Nobunaga No Yabou and the Shogun Total War games have built-they're no longer familiar with the groups that hold power and all their old strategies no longer work. That's why I was thrilled to see that Paradox's Sengoku started at the time of the Onin War-it was a step in the right direction, and I'm glad to see you've taken it several steps further. Heck, I'd even like to see scenarios for the Jinshin War of 673 or Taira Masakado's rebellion in the 10th century (although thankfully both have been covered in Japan's Game Journal/Command and in Sengokushi, but it'd be nice to see them done for Sengoku).

 

[chatnoir17]

Heck, I'd even like to see scenarios for the Jinshin War of 673 or Taira Masakado's rebellion in the 10th century (although thankfully both have been covered in Japan's Game Journal/Command and in Sengokushi, but it'd be nice to see them done for Sengoku).

The Genpei War was the first civil war which involved the most part of Japan. That's why I have chosen this period as the start line, although there were some interesting campaigns before 1180 as you mentioned.
However, Masakado exists in the familiy tree of the Taira clan in this mod.

 

[chatnoir17]

But... and again ... did they add some way to stop all provinces developing to 100% castles and agriculture?

Sadly, no.

 

[GShock]

Sadly, no.

Testing .461 as we speak. The feeling is great.
I am playing as Yoritomo and tried 2 plots so far, naturally I am well beyond the strenght of the target so I don't need to but wanted to try. The result is that there's some who give the thumb up (green) in the plot invite but then the text (popup helper) says "You are too strong for me", something like that (plot seems to work but looks like the popup text is wrong). In any case with so many clans involved, again, the fact a clan joins you instead of going free from its parent is very bad. Plotting basically seems to be the only method to acquire new land peacefully. What comes in the pocket of the guy who defects to the player? Nothing, vassal was and vassal will remain. Too bad... can something be done about this? More possibility to found new clan than to join you (unless you have very good attitude). On the other hand, it looks like Yoritomo can have many retainers, no real contesters in the vicinity (Takeda was no match and Satake is same size but far away). Maybe we need some balance finetuning or some way to have other clans dislike you more for aggressive policy.

The checks every 15 days make the siege FEEL alive. Great.

Some events are unclear... I am asked almost immediately whether to bide my time or to attack Taira. I said YES but no war ensued. Something wrong with this event?
At this point since the vanilla sengoku is unplayable, I'd rather playtest Genpei... an occasion to learn and give you guys a hand. Too bad I have some sort of psychological refuse to mod myself lol.

 

[Tatsunoshi]

The Genpei War was the first civil war which involved the most part of Japan. That's why I have chosen this period as the start line, although there were some interesting campaigns before 1180 as you mentioned.

Not to mention the armies of 673 were pre-samurai and involved totally different types of weaponry and organization (at least based on the limited archaeological finds).

However, Masakado exists in the familiy tree of the Taira clan in this mod.

That's great, since the Chiba come directly from his branch of the Taira ^_^

 

[chatnoir17]

Testing .461 as we speak. The feeling is great.
I am playing as Yoritomo and tried 2 plots so far, naturally I am well beyond the strenght of the target so I don't need to but wanted to try. The result is that there's some who give the thumb up (green) in the plot invite but then the text (popup helper) says "You are too strong for me", something like that (plot seems to work but looks like the popup text is wrong). In any case with so many clans involved, again, the fact a clan joins you instead of going free from its parent is very bad. Plotting basically seems to be the only method to acquire new land peacefully. What comes in the pocket of the guy who defects to the player? Nothing, vassal was and vassal will remain. Too bad... can something be done about this? More possibility to found new clan than to join you (unless you have very good attitude). On the other hand, it looks like Yoritomo can have many retainers, no real contesters in the vicinity (Takeda was no match and Satake is same size but far away). Maybe we need some balance finetuning or some way to have other clans dislike you more for aggressive policy.

The retainers create a new clan or go to the civil war. These are vanilla features.
Yoritomo is the heir of the Minamoto clan. He is the special one in this period. If you look at the history of this era, you will notice that he expanded very quickly into Kanto region. However, I also think other clans could have some tools to fight against him. I will consider what I can do for that.

Some events are unclear... I am asked almost immediately whether to bide my time or to attack Taira. I said YES but no war ensued. Something wrong with this event?

The event brings no war in fact, since the game didn't have war command. Maybe I should rewrite the text. But if you get the event several times, it should be a bug. I will try to fix.

At this point since the vanilla sengoku is unplayable, I'd rather playtest Genpei... an occasion to learn and give you guys a hand. Too bad I have some sort of psychological refuse to mod myself lol.

If you also play the Rise of Samurai scenario in S2, I guess you can learn the period quickly.

 

[chatnoir17]

That's great, since the Chiba come directly from his branch of the Taira ^_^

Yeah, many clans in Kanto region came from the Taira. It is very interesting that so many Taira branchs helped Yoritomo, the heir of the Minamoto, to get better status for the samurai in that region.

 

[Hister]

Text fixes:

As the monors developed... --> manors
...local conflicts between different holdings became seriously. ... --> serious
Thus they got the economic basement... --> base
... became local power in the provinces... --> provincial power
... grew to a faction per se. --> see

A courtier made a good poem about that climate. --> this
Theoretically speaking... gather taxs and send them constantly to Kyoto. --> taxes

 

[chatnoir17]

Text fixes:

As the monors developed... --> manors
...local conflicts between different holdings became seriously. ... --> serious
Thus they got the economic basement... --> base
... became local power in the provinces... --> provincial power
... grew to a faction per se. --> see

A courtier made a good poem about that climate. --> this
Theoretically speaking... gather taxs and send them constantly to Kyoto. --> taxes

Thanks. Per se means "in itself" in Latin, though.

 

[GShock]

The retainers create a new clan or go to the civil war. These are vanilla features.
Yoritomo is the heir of the Minamoto clan. He is the special one in this period. If you look at the history of this era, you will notice that he expanded very quickly into Kanto region. However, I also think other clans could have some tools to fight against him. I will consider what I can do for that.

Considering no clan in the vicinity has any chance to withstand Yoritomo's retainer army, I'd say if the relations with a neighbor drop, the player as Yoritomo should be forced to give gifts which delay his ability to buy honor (which pays for his invasions). It's important that clans like Satake and Takeda are actually up for the fight but it looks like at least in the Kanto region all clans are somehow not aggressive at all. Clan Kazusa is sleepy as well. The more Yoritomo grows, the more he should pay to avoid the minors to start plotting against him. That's the how to, in my opinion.

We have honor that prevents new wars, money that buys honor but we need the AI to react to the rise to power of the majors. What's true for Minamoto must be true for Fujiwara and Taira as well since they are playable.

Thinking about the snowball event, I was wondering if you could possibly devise events that increase attrition and defense values when it's winter. That should basically fix the problem of the game having no seasonal changes.
Considering there's no province development limiter is it possible to have the historical regions having REAL castles and developments while all the others (while still being possibly upgraded to the max) having different much minor values?
What I mean is, if Edo is obviously upgradable to a def value of 100 could Suruga have as max def value 50? In other words, do provinces have separate base values and separate upgrade values? This would bypass our limiter problem.

If you also play the Rise of Samurai scenario in S2, I guess you can learn the period quickly.

I have.
I have even played at that point in time, Cinemaware's Lords of the Rising Sun. Specifically designed for the Minamoto.
It was a lifetime ago but unfortunately I didn't learn anything with the history. I know it's a great period but I have no historical reference whereas I have 2 books on SJ period.

 

[Hister]

Thanks. Per se means "in itself" in Latin, though.

Yes you are right, sorry. Always wrote it "see" - embarrassed

Harsh winter event fires too often. I got one every year so you might want to consider lowering MTTH. Once I even got two such events in a time span of a few days - what's that all about? A bug or does this event trigger on a provincial basis?
How do you know what provinces get affected and what are the effects in them?
Were there really snowball games for samurai training?

I was wondering if you could possibly devise events that increase attrition and defense values when it's winter. That should basically fix the problem of the game having no seasonal changes.

+1
Then you can simulate 4 seasons by applying proper modifiers to all the provinces. No agricultural income in winter and spring for example. ... but that might be too heavy for the game engine to cope? I mean to check the effects for all the provinces 4 times a year?

What I mean is, if Edo is obviously upgradable to a def value of 100 could Suruga have as max def value 50? In other words, do provinces have separate base values and separate upgrade values? This would bypass our limiter problem.

That is not possible to code directly but I was thinking about a bypass: something like having the castle upgrades with rather small effects and the provincial modifiers where historically plausible that in combination with castle upgrades provide a proper result namely those provinces would stand out in comparison to others without the provincial modifiers.

 

[chatnoir17]

Considering no clan in the vicinity has any chance to withstand Yoritomo's retainer army, I'd say if the relations with a neighbor drop, the player as Yoritomo should be forced to give gifts which delay his ability to buy honor (which pays for his invasions). It's important that clans like Satake and Takeda are actually up for the fight but it looks like at least in the Kanto region all clans are somehow not aggressive at all. Clan Kazusa is sleepy as well. The more Yoritomo grows, the more he should pay to avoid the minors to start plotting against him. That's the how to, in my opinion.

The relationship between Yoritomo and the clans in Kanto become worse if these clans refuse to join into the Yoritomo faction. The problem is, Yoshitomo has very high Diplo stat, so -50 modifier is not enough for him.
I am thinking to set the war between the Taira and Yoritomo when Yoritomo calls the army. In this situation, other clans could have more chance.

Thinking about the snowball event, I was wondering if you could possibly devise events that increase attrition and defense values when it's winter. That should basically fix the problem of the game having no seasonal changes.

The province in heavy snow has a negative modifier on the supply limit and +50 defence bonus. This modifier banishes after 60 days, or the spring comes.

Considering there's no province development limiter is it possible to have the historical regions having REAL castles and developments while all the others (while still being possibly upgraded to the max) having different much minor values?
What I mean is, if Edo is obviously upgradable to a def value of 100 could Suruga have as max def value 50? In other words, do provinces have separate base values and separate upgrade values? This would bypass our limiter problem.

All parameters on the provincial development relate to the buildings. Of course we can use province modifiers, but I won't use too many modifiers, because I'm afraid that the player can't recognize 10-20 modifiers on a province.

I have.
I have even played at that point in time, Cinemaware's Lords of the Rising Sun. Specifically designed for the Minamoto.
It was a lifetime ago but unfortunately I didn't learn anything with the history. I know it's a great period but I have no historical reference whereas I have 2 books on SJ period.

Maybe Tatsunoshi can recommend you several good books or websites for this period.

 

[chatnoir17]

Harsh winter event fires too often. I got one every year so you might want to consider lowering MTTH. Once I even got two such events in a time span of a few days - what's that all about? A bug or does this event trigger on a provincial basis?

It has 10% chance to get harsh winter, but I have found another bug which might cause this problem.

How do you know what provinces get affected and what are the effects in them?

Unlike EU3 we have not map to get modifier informations of provinces. In the answer to Gshock I wrote the effect. I am wondering where did you look when I uploaded a screenshot in this post, though.

Were there really snowball games for samurai training?

I think I had read something about this. The children in the middle ages liked to play with stones too.

Then you can simulate 4 seasons by applying proper modifiers to all the provinces. No agricultural income in winter and spring for example. ... but that might be too heavy for the game engine to cope? I mean to check the effects for all the provinces 4 times a year?

While the people got some vegitables in winter and springs, I think it is not a bad idea.
The problem is, the player will get too many events telling the changing of four seasons. If the player owns 5 kori, he gets 20 events pro year.

 

[Hister]

Unlike EU3 we have not map to get modifier informations of provinces. In the answer to Gshock I wrote the effect. I am wondering where did you look when I uploaded a screenshot in this post, though.

The screenshot is nice and all but I don't get that event in my game, only the snowball one.

I think I had read something about this. The children in the middle ages liked to play with stones too.

Well, we played with stones to when we were children - nobody got seriously hurt though. No need to go far away into the past he he.

While the people got some vegitables in winter and springs, I think it is not a bad idea.
The problem is, the player will get too many events telling the changing of four seasons. If the player owns 5 kori, he gets 20 events pro year.

You can omit the event text - make it so that it does not show up - this should have been the underground process players should be aware of simply by looking at the date in the upper right corner and seeing the effects on income etc. Now I don't know how drastically this would change the gameplay, it would be more of a desert/candy for players and it would not affect the AI (that is if the seasons themselves are made in a way that they don't affect deeper game elements).

 

[chatnoir17]

The screenshot is nice and all but I don't get that event in my game, only the snowball one.

Well, the heavy snow event happens mainly in Northern Japan.

Well, we played with stones to when we were children - nobody got seriously hurt though. No need to go far away into the past he he.

In the Sengoku era, it was more serious. Takeda Shingen and other daimyo had regiments which attacked enemy with stone balls. In fact, stones were effective weapon if skillfull soldiers throwed. In addition, it required no metall or gunpowder...

You can omit the event text - make it so that it does not show up - this should have been the underground process players should be aware of simply by looking at the date in the upper right corner and seeing the effects on income etc. Now I don't know how drastically this would change the gameplay, it would be more of a desert/candy for players and it would not affect the AI (that is if the seasons themselves are made in a way that they don't affect deeper game elements).

Yes, I think there could be some events which happen only for AI and set some effects to all kori.
One thing I am not sure is the percentage of trade and agricultural incomes within the entire budjet. For me, reducing the income to 0% or 10% in winter is too radical, since even in winter they got some income from agricultural goods, trade and taxes.
How can we represent this historical reality to the incomes in game?

 

[Hister]

Well, the heavy snow event happens mainly in Northern Japan.

Ah I see - maybe the "snowball" event should be the same as the proper heavy snow event but less strong in effects? Now it does nothing right?

How can we represent this historical reality to the incomes in game?

I don't have the numbers so all I suggest is merely a suggestion and nothing else. I suppose agricultural income was the biggest of the 3? Maybe lowering income to 60% of the default one during the winter time would suffice?

 

[chatnoir17]

Ah I see - maybe the "snowball" event should be the same as the proper heavy snow event but less strong in effects? Now it does nothing right?

As I stated above, the snowball event tells the player that the winter will be hard. The event has no effect in itself.

I don't have the numbers so all I suggest is merely a suggestion and nothing else. I suppose agricultural income was the biggest of the 3? Maybe lowering income to 60% of the default one during the winter time would suffice?

It makes sense for me.
How about this income rate?
Spring (3-5):70%
Summer(6-8):80%
Autumn(9-11):190%
Winter(12-2):60%

Or,
Spring (3-5):80%
Summer(6-8):90%
Autumn(9-11):170%
Winter(12-2):60%

The total income is not changed.

 

[GShock]

I'd take option 2 but make winter 30%. You can split those remaining 30% among the Spring, Summer and Autumn equally (90 100 180 30)
I think the winter event should encompass a few provinces where attrition goes above the norm I don't know if it can be done in a random province or set of provinces.

 

[chatnoir17]

I'd take option 2 but make winter 30%. You can split those remaining 30% among the Spring, Summer and Autumn equally (90 100 180 30)
I think the winter event should encompass a few provinces where attrition goes above the norm I don't know if it can be done in a random province or set of provinces.

I would avoid over 50% penalty, since I am not sure what happens if a province gets over -100% penalty on income.

The attrition modifier would be nice, though I don't know how it works. Could you test what happens if a province gets -1, -0.1 or +1 attrition?