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I would avoid over 50% penalty, since I am not sure what happens if a province gets over -100% penalty on income.

The attrition modifier would be nice, though I don't know how it works. Could you test what happens if a province gets -1, -0.1 or +1 attrition?

Sure, hand me the file and I'll test it.
Not clear what you mean with over 100% penalty. We are talking of a minimum of 30% penalty and 30% is less than 100% :)

I think if we are to touch the agricultural data we could use some differentiation based on historical/geographical data so we have a starting revenue that more accurately depicts the importance of one Kori in respect with another.
Possibly, we could already include some "timed events" to describe the other economic features.

For example, the gold mines of Kai, you could spawn a +10 gold every now and then with the event saying "A new vein of gold found in the mountain of abracadabra brings 10 koku to your coffins".

Other economic events could be positive or negative. Talking of important trade routes "Wako pirates seized one of your trade ships leaving nobody alive. Compensation to the other party for the undelivered goods cost you 10 gold (if you can't pay you lose attitude to random character)".

If you want I can build a list with the provinces that appear to be richer than others as taken from other games + I can have a look at those provinces' geography with google earth. It is not going to be as accurate as history demands but very very much better than it is now with "all the same".

Finally (and again) we could use a separate forum, even if public, to have different topics for the mod. This way we can split the discussions instead of talking always in the same thread (which is the main thread of the mod and not supposedly to be used for development). Please ask the moderator.
 
Holstein Kiel (the forth league) won against FSV Mainz 05 (the first league)! Yey!!:D

Not clear what you mean with over 100% penalty. We are talking of a minimum of 30% penalty and 30% is less than 100% :)
If you set income in winter 30% of the normal one, it means the province gets -70% modifier. And we have already some modifiers having -50% penalty. -70% + -50% is -120%. :)

I think if we are to touch the agricultural data we could use some differentiation based on historical/geographical data so we have a starting revenue that more accurately depicts the importance of one Kori in respect with another.
Possibly, we could already include some "timed events" to describe the other economic features.

I don't live in Japan, so searching precise data is difficult. I hope someone in Japan can help us.

If you want I can build a list with the provinces that appear to be richer than others as taken from other games + I can have a look at those provinces' geography with google earth. It is not going to be as accurate as history demands but very very much better than it is now with "all the same".

Thanks! But please note that the geography of Japan was radically changed in Edo period, f.e. there were no great plain in Kanto region. (I hope here someone could provide us the old map of Japan.)

About the sub forum, I don't think we can get one. Even D&T mod for EU3, far more famous than this mod, can not get a sub forum yet. On the other hand, it is not so bad if we have several thread direct under the mod sub forum, since the activity of this forum is (sadly) not so high.


About attrition, please look the event modifier file and add the parameter in the heavy_snow modifier.
 
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About attrition, please look the event modifier file and add the parameter in the heavy_snow modifier.

Don't ask me about that, I won't touch the files. You do that I test. That simple. :)

Gonna get on the geo/economy maps this afternoon. Having no insight on the standard economic factors in this game (and in that era) I can give some raw data quite easily but what those values must be and where to port them into the files is up to you. :)
 
How about this income rate?
Spring (3-5):70%
Summer(6-8):80%
Autumn(9-11):190%
Winter(12-2):60%

Or,
Spring (3-5):80%
Summer(6-8):90%
Autumn(9-11):170%
Winter(12-2):60%

The total income is not changed.

Just a short note on this one. In reality, spring was the time of the year in which agricultural produce was at its absolute lowest (and the threat of famine at it's highest). Last years harvest would have been consumed in winter, and the new ones not ready yet.

Over all, famines where very common in the late Heian and could be used for events in the game. In 1180 to 1280 there was about 21 years of widespread starvation and another 6 of local crop failure. The Yoowa famine (1180-1182) prevented the Taira from mounting effecetive resistance, unable to move out of western Japan.
 
Don't ask me about that, I won't touch the files. You do that I test. That simple. :)

I see. Sadly my hands are two, though... I am waiting for feedbacks about personality traits. I am also converting Divided Clans Mod now and helping soran by making Sekigahara scenario. And Christmas comes soon...
 
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Just a short note on this one. In reality, spring was the time of the year in which agricultural produce was at its absolute lowest (and the threat of famine at it's highest). Last years harvest would have been consumed in winter, and the new ones not ready yet.

Yes. The double cropping for commercial goods was also common, but the people can't eat such a crop.

Over all, famines where very common in the late Heian and could be used for events in the game. In 1180 to 1280 there was about 21 years of widespread starvation and another 6 of local crop failure. The Yoowa famine (1180-1182) prevented the Taira from mounting effecetive resistance, unable to move out of western Japan.

Vanilla has already famines events. Please check the province event file.
 
Well, the lions part of income would have been agricultural, hence the varying levels on income over a year? (Albeit, the lions part of economic growth would have been within the commercial sector if you look at it system-wide and for the entire period).

There is a great difference between the late Heian and the Sengoku periods when it comes to agricultural output. The climate was colder and damper in the the Heian (cause seems to have been global scale volcanic event), both causing more frequent famines and large outbreaks of diseases. Reason behind you don't see any population growth in the Heian, as you do in the later periods. Might be a cause for an increase in famine and disease events, when compared to later periods of Japanese history.
 
chatnoir17 said:
Maybe Tatsunoshi can recommend you several good books or websites for this period.

Loads of sources in Japanese. Not so many dealing with the military aspect in English. The best single source in English would probably be "The Founding of the Kamakura Shogunate 1180-1185", which also contains translations of the Bakufu's quasi-official account of the war, the Azuma Kagami. Helen McCullough's translation of the Heike Monogatari is excellent as well, but keep in mind the Heike is largely fiction based on fact. Anything by Jeffrey Mass will be great for institutional background and politics of the era (not so much warfare), and William Wayne Farris has a few books that give a solid economic/cultural background. There's lots of other stuff, but it tends to be focused on incredibly narrow non-military (but still very interesting) topics.
 
Well, the lions part of income would have been agricultural, hence the varying levels on income over a year? (Albeit, the lions part of economic growth would have been within the commercial sector if you look at it system-wide and for the entire period).

There is a great difference between the late Heian and the Sengoku periods when it comes to agricultural output. The climate was colder and damper in the the Heian (cause seems to have been global scale volcanic event), both causing more frequent famines and large outbreaks of diseases. Reason behind you don't see any population growth in the Heian, as you do in the later periods. Might be a cause for an increase in famine and disease events, when compared to later periods of Japanese history.

The income in Sengoku is very abstruct. It should be a mix of agricultural provisions and monetary income with trade.
 
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Loads of sources in Japanese. Not so many dealing with the military aspect in English. The best single source in English would probably be "The Founding of the Kamakura Shogunate 1180-1185", which also contains translations of the Bakufu's quasi-official account of the war, the Azuma Kagami. Helen McCullough's translation of the Heike Monogatari is excellent as well, but keep in mind the Heike is largely fiction based on fact. Anything by Jeffrey Mass will be great for institutional background and politics of the era (not so much warfare), and William Wayne Farris has a few books that give a solid economic/cultural background. There's lots of other stuff, but it tends to be focused on incredibly narrow non-military (but still very interesting) topics.

Thanks for the information!

By the way, I, living far from Japan, really hope Japanese Wikipedians could work well on the local history. In comparison to German or English pages the Japanese Wiki lacks historical informations on the Kuni/Kori levels. The texts tell us nothing except some rulers, so they aren't helpful if we try to make provincial differences.
 
I love the expanded, rebalanced traits along with the icon changes. I'm new to Sengoku and I prefer these over vanilla. Looking forward to updates!

Thanks for the first feedback to the traits!
 
Why would spring give less than winter? :)

Spring (3-5):70%
Summer(6-8):80%
Autumn(9-11):190%
Winter(12-2):60%

Or,

Spring (3-5):80%
Summer(6-8):90%
Autumn(9-11):170%
Winter(12-2):60%

Either of the 2 solutions is fine but the second is better. I would further reduce the winter factors (Main harvest is still in autumn) because plants are harvested AND hybernated.
I'm going to build a system where trade is a factor so unimportant Kuni will still have a balanced income despite the seasonal penalties.
 
Thanks for the replies!

I was thinking about this seasonal difference as monthly local tax modifier, but we can also use changing tax_income. For example, the spring, summer and winter gets -6 to -8 tax income, while the autumn gets +18 to 24 extra income.These -6 or -8 means the lack of agricultural goods. The player can reduce this penalty with provincial buildings.
Now I think it is more reasonable than changing local tax modifier, since I can't understand why the commercial taxes, which is also included to the income in game, should be drastically decreased in winter.
 
Soran did a great work on the Sekigahara scenario!



Sadly it is still unplayable since the clan leaders lack vassals (Toyotomi Hideyori has 120% revolt risk...), but I will show his effort tomorrow.

Considering this scenario and others, I think this Genpei Mod should have anoother name to avoid confusion, while I will continue to work on the Genpei scenario.
 
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This is what I found on the economy/geography in a small example focused on the sole island of Shikoku. If this idea pleases you I will then move to Kyushu and slowly I'll build the background on all Japan.

Naturally, source lacking it's in part taken from Google Earth, in part from other games and in other part taken from my cylinder in an attempt to rebalance on one side and to give more accuracy in predicted results on the other which aim for historicity of course.

Naturally since I had to pause Sengoku to take the data the laptop switched off and I lost my first document which was much more elaborated.
I think it's possible to apply these concepts to any historical period but naturally, my research was more effective in Sengoku also because of the many games on this period (even Takeda III) lol.

The research is split on Kunis and it also comprises a few notes where events may trigger very important strategic consequences and it's on those consequences that we may achieve historical results favorable to Chosokabe so that he would become a leading power in Shikoku.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iyo (insert clan Kono)

Uwa - Low fertility
Ikata - Low fertility
Ukena - very low fertility - Iron Mine
Iyo - Medium fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West Honshu and East/South Kyushu)
Kuwamura - Low fertility - Fishermen (income bonus)
Uma - very low fertility - Iron Mine

Notes: possible interesting situation in which the mines of Ukena and Uma generate negative attitude from all 3 neighboring clans to make them seek conquest. This can be achieved by events (insults, hunting accident, marriage gone awry between courtiers, rumors of plots, any possible casus belli triggering from these 2 provinces with the owners of ALL neighboring provinces more strongly on the Kori of Tosa which borders the mountains to those mines).
The insertion of the clan may be an independent faction or subdued vassal to a bigger clan. Personally, I'd like more clans to start smaller.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tosa (insert Clan Chosokabe)

Hata - Medium fertility
Tosa - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Wood manufactory (trade bonus) - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West/South Honshu and East/South Kyushu)
Nagaoka - Medium fertility

Notes: Capitals had markets and trade routes but when Capitals were by the sea those trade routes were much more efficient. We can use again events to simulate extra trade income (occasionally) and to build rivalry on trade lanes between neighboring clans. Chosokabe would be trading with Kyushu via Osumi/Satsuma/Bungo and with Honshu via Kii/Bizen/Aki.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awa (insert clan Miyoshi)

Miyoshi - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus)
Itano - Medium fertility
Kaifu - Low fertility
Katsuura - Low fertility - sea trade (trade bonus)

Notes: Miyoshi would be affected by the mines event as well. If we can make hatred between Kono and Chosokabe for instance Miyoshi could be involved in a subsequent AI plot. Bad attitude favors war because of the lower honor penalty in case of DoW. Slight events with negative attitude towards the owner of Awaji due to piracy attacks in the straits.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanuki (Insert clan Sogo)

Toyota - Medium fertility
Utari - Medium fertility
Kagawa - High fertility - Stone quarries (trade bonus)
Ouchi - Medium fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West/South Honshu and East/South Kyushu)

Notes: This Kuni should theoretically belong to clan Sogo which should be affected slightly by the events triggering from the central iron mine but heavily by the Pirate events coming from the Kuni of Awaji (a Daimyo being behind pirate attacks would give a perfect casus belli).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Awaji

Mihara - Low fertility
Awaii - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Pirates (sea trade bonus + negative attitude with bordering clans)
Tsuna - Low fertility

Notes: interesting political development if the negative modifiers trigger attrition with Awa/Sanuki Kunis.

It's just an initial notedown of what I have in mind. Could be more complex but I'd rather not have the player fight with the screen events and pauses too often. Note the abstract value given to fertility. This number needs to be addressed with tests according to the various economic conditions and upgrades (i.e. upkeep, upgrades, etc.).
 
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This is what I found on the economy/geography in a small example focused on the sole island of Shikoku. If this idea pleases you I will then move to Kyushu and slowly I'll build the background on all Japan.

Naturally, source lacking it's in part taken from Google Earth, in part from other games and in other part taken from my cylinder in an attempt to rebalance on one side and to give more accuracy in predicted results on the other which aim for historicity of course.

Naturally since I had to pause Sengoku to take the data the laptop switched off and I lost my first document which was much more elaborated.
I think it's possible to apply these concepts to any historical period but naturally, my research was more effective in Sengoku also because of the many games on this period (even Takeda III) lol.

The research is split on Kunis and it also comprises a few notes where events may trigger very important strategic consequences and it's on those consequences that we may achieve historical results favorable to Chosokabe so that he would become a leading power in Shikoku.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iyo (insert clan Kono)

Uwa - Low fertility
Ikata - Low fertility
Ukena - very low fertility - Iron Mine
Iyo - Medium fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West Honshu and East/South Kyushu)
Kuwamura - Low fertility - Fishermen (income bonus)
Uma - very low fertility - Iron Mine

Notes: possible interesting situation in which the mines of Ukena and Uma generate negative attitude from all 3 neighboring clans to make them seek conquest. This can be achieved by events (insults, hunting accident, marriage gone awry between courtiers, rumors of plots, any possible casus belli triggering from these 2 provinces with the owners of ALL neighboring provinces more strongly on the Kori of Tosa which borders the mountains to those mines).
The insertion of the clan may be an independent faction or subdued vassal to a bigger clan. Personally, I'd like more clans to start smaller.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tosa (insert Clan Chosokabe)

Hata - Medium fertility
Tosa - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Wood manufactory - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West/South Honshu and East/South Kyushu)
Nagaoka - Medium fertility

Notes: Capitals had markets and trade routes but when Capitals were by the sea those trade routes were much more efficient. We can use again events to simulate extra trade income (occasionally) and to build rivalry on trade lanes between neighboring clans. Chosokabe would be trading with Kyushu via Osumi/Satsuma/Bungo and with Honshu via Kii/Bizen/Aki.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awa (insert clan Miyoshi)

Miyoshi - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus)
Itano - Medium fertility
Kaifu - Low fertility
Katsuura - Low fertility - sea trade (trade bonus)

Notes: Miyoshi would be affected by the mines event as well. If we can make hatred between Kono and Chosokabe for instance Miyoshi could be involved in a subsequent AI plot. Bad attitude favors war because of the lower honor penalty in case of DoW. Slight events with negative attitude towards the owner of Awaji due to piracy attacks in the straits.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanuki (Insert clan Sogo)

Toyota - Medium fertility
Utari - Medium fertility
Kagawa - High fertility
Ouchi - Medium fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Sea trade (trade bonus + attitude bonus/malus + events with overseas clan in West/South Honshu and East/South Kyushu)

Notes: This Kuni should theoretically belong to clan Sogo which should be affected slightly by the events triggering from the central iron mine but heavily by the Pirate events coming from the Kuni of Awaji (a Daimyo being behind pirate attacks would give a perfect casus belli).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Awaji

Mihara - Low fertility
Awaii - Low fertility - Capital (trade bonus) - Pirates (sea trade bonus + negative attitude with bordering clans)
Tsuna - Low fertility

Notes: interesting political development if the negative modifiers trigger attrition with Awa/Sanuki Kunis.

It's just an initial notedown of what I have in mind. Could be more complex but I'd rather not have the player fight with the screen events and pauses too often. Note the abstract value given to fertility. This number needs to be addressed with tests according to the various economic conditions and upgrades (i.e. upkeep, upgrades, etc.).

Greast stuffs. These informations are basically suitable for all scenarios between 1180 and 1600. Please keep on good work for other areas!