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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #6 - Interest Groups

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Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
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As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
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As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
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I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
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Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.
 
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Are you able to confirm whether you are able to remain as conservative/religious country throughout the game? Or is it inevitable that you shift away from Piety and Conservatism towards liberalism.
You definitely can! One of the design pillars of Victoria 3 was to not treat liberalism as an inevitable progression but rather something that emerges organically from your actions and which you could try to hold back, or encourage, or revert. There are certainly forces (mostly economic) in the world that encourages the trend towards liberalism but you can try to build a perfect pious agrarian society if you so wish.
 
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How the pop’s choice whom to support is determined? Is it just pop type, wealth and literacy or some other factors, e.g more people supporting armed forces as the country feels threatened, or more people supporting trade unions due to socialist propaganda and so on?
 
What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform.

Lovely! That's exactly what I wish to read.

About the main part of the DD, I hope that we may find all the info about Interest Groups and Pops in a specific ledger as well as a mapmode where we may find where in your country a specific IG is stronger than others.
 
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You definitely can! One of the design pillars of Victoria 3 was to not treat liberalism as an inevitable progression but rather something that emerges organically from your actions and which you could try to hold back, or encourage, or revert. There are certainly forces (mostly economic) in the world that encourages the trend towards liberalism but you can try to build a perfect pious agrarian society if you so wish.
Excellent! I'm very pleased to hear that.
 
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I just don't want to be 'forced' to engage with political parties. I can't stand political parties.
Well then play a country that doesn't have them and do your darnedest to stay authoritarian. I imagine they would only exist for more democratic countries, if you didn't want to engage with them don't play any country that has them. Very simple.
 
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This is really informative! Is there anything the player can do to affect who leads an interest group, or at least attempt to remove a leader who becomes a problem? Or is it a matter of taking what the RNG gives you?

Is it possible for pops or interest groups to split more finely on issues that affect one region or one industry?
 
Well then play a country that doesn't have them and do your darnedest to stay authoritarian. I imagine they would only exist for more democratic countries, if you didn't want to engage with them don't play any country that has them. Very simple.
Yeah but I'm English and I'm like to play as Britain at some point and Britain already has voting at game start.
 
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I have to add this before I get back to work to briefly address the counter point to not having parties and why it doesn't work. I should've thought of this when it was discussed earlier, but I didn't so now I must lay it out here. So here is why IGs alone don't work, especially for First Past the Post Voting like in the USA. This may be very well true even for other voting methods to whatever extent it is also true for them.

Let say for the sake of argument you have 3-6 competing prominent interest groups. They have interests that overlap and some that don't with various degrees of caring for the various issues they care about on an individual basis. They all compete individually and maybe you have the top one or two winning. But now three of the interest groups realize that they share a big common affinity for X, whatever that is. They may even be willing to compromise on their other issues because X is at the top of the list for these three IGs. So they form a party, the remaining 3 IGs don't.

Now by pooling their resources they can outcompete the smaller IGs by comparison because as it so happens, big tent parties are the way to go in first past the post voting where you have various common IGs banding togethere. In proportional voting, you can get away with parties caring to various IGs to whatever extent that is true. But not in first past the post voting.

The only way the remaining 3 IGs to compete against this merging of their former competing IGs, is to form their own party and now they can compete on equal footing as opposed separate IGs that can be crushed individually.
 
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It sounds like political parties will be in some form a coalition of interest groups, which makes sense since that's basically how parties and party systems formed in the first place. Literally as "clubs" of similarly aligned members that grew to national prominence in early democratic republics.
 
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Yeah but I'm English and I'm like to play as Britain at some point and Britain already has voting at game start.
Well what can I say, I guess you might end up unhappy then when you play Britain. Sorry it wasn't an absolute monarchy in 1836 with no political parties.
 
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Can we please not have political parties.
It's 19th and early 20th century politics. You really just can't model that period of political history without modeling the formation of a system of formalized political parties.
 
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Another question is religious and ethnic minorities - can they get there own interest groups, or do they have to join the dominant ones or stay outside the legitimate political system and pursue their goals through other means?
 
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View attachment 735824

Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
View attachment 735844


As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
View attachment 735822

As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
View attachment 735821

I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
View attachment 735820

Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.
Looks lovely but I must say I was hoping for more info. To which degree can we choose which groups are part of government? Can I, as an authoritarian state, decide to dump aristocrats and favour intelligentsia instead? At what cost?
 
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How much control do we have over the leaders of interest groups? Obviously, assassinating them was too historically ubiquitous to be omitted entirely, but can we so it whenever we want? What about appointing patsies?

There's no such thing as a good pie chart :cool:
(yes we have pie charts)
The best pie chart is one that doubles as a UI button to more in-depth information.
 
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More Dependents get to cast a vote, which makes the piece of the Political Strength pie made up of Votes even larger. This in turn tends to grant more political strength to the common folk.

So how will I be able to get women to work in my amunition factories insted of staying lazy dependents?
 
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One way to extend this would be to give interest groups or pops not just political power, but economic and cultural cachet. Then you’re forming coalitions whose influence extends into multiple spheres, and you’re directing how your allies use it. I don’t want to jump on the bandwagon of making fun of “the Spirit of the Nation,” but one thing I love about CK3 is that I have a clear sense of whom I’m playing and why I can or can’t do things. It seems to me that Vicky would benefit from a bit more clarity about that.
 
Now by pooling their resources they can outcompete the smaller IGs by comparison because as it so happens, big tent parties are the way to go in first past the post voting where you have various common IGs banding togethere. In proportional voting, you can get away with parties caring to various IGs to whatever extent that is true. But not in first past the post voting.

The only way the remaining 3 IGs to compete against this merging of their former competing IGs, is to form their own party and now they can compete on equal footing as opposed separate IGs that can be crushed individually.
And the effects of this can be simulated through the influence of electoral laws on clout and IG behavior. Political parties in practice only add fluff to the table and I fear that the naming of the various political parties will run the risk of being immersion breaking whether those names are handpicked in advanced or generated on the basis of ideological/IG parameters.
 
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Looks lovely but I must say I was hoping for more info. To which degree can we choose which groups are part of government? Can I, as an authoritarian state, decide to dump aristocrats and favour intelligentsia instead? At what cost?
I'm pretty certain in that situation you could do that, but if your Head of State belongs to the Landowners IG you would take a big hit to your government legitimacy.
 
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