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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #20 - Diplomatic Actions

16_9 (1).jpg

Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary! Today we’ll be continuing to talk about Diplomacy, specifically on the topic of Diplomatic Actions, which are the means by which countries in Victoria 3 conduct diplomacy, build (or tear down) relations, and sign various kinds of agreements with each other.

Diplomatic Actions and how they work should be pretty familiar to anyone who’s played pretty much any other Paradox Grand Strategy game. In short, a Diplomatic Action is a type of interaction that is carried out by one country towards another, and which sometimes (but not always) requires the agreement of the other party.

As the exact requirements and effects of a Diplomatic Action are unique to each type of action, this Dev Diary will mostly just be going over which actions currently exist in the game, but before I get into that I want to briefly explain about the three distinct categories that all actions fall into and how they differ:
  • Instant Actions: These are actions that are carried out immediately upon use and/or acceptance (if acceptance is needed). They do not cost any Influence capacity as they do not require maintenance.
  • Ongoing Actions: These are unilateral actions that are carried out over time by one party towards the other, and can only be cancelled by the first party. They can have an Influence maintenance cost, in which case only the first party is the one to pay it.
  • Pacts: These are bilateral actions that are carried out over time as an agreement between two parties. If there is a maintenance cost, both parties have to pay it unless the agreement has a clear senior and junior partner (such as Subject relationships). Both parties can break the pact off, though in some cases it may require the agreement of the other party.
A look at some of the actions and pacts available between two independent countries
dd20 1v2.png

If you’re still a bit unclear on the difference between these three, don’t worry! It should hopefully become clearer once we start going into examples. So with no further ado, let’s talk about what actions there currently are available in the game. Please note that, as always, the game is still under active development so what’s in here may not exactly match what we have for release.

Instant Actions (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Expel Diplomats: This is an action that immediately lowers Relations with the target country, stops any ongoing attempt by them to Improve Relations with you, and blocks further Improve Relations attempts for a period of 5 years. Using Expel Diplomats also gives the acting country some Infamy, and prevents them from using Expel Diplomats on the same country for 5 years.
  • Take on Debt: This is an action that allows one country to take on the debt of another in exchange for being owed an Obligation (more on this in later dev diaries).
  • Redeem Obligation: This is an action that forgives an Obligation owed to the acting country in exchange for a large boost in Relations.
  • Violate Sovereignty: This is an action that allows the acting country to violate the neutrality of another country through whom they need military access, creating a Diplomatic Incident and potentially bringing new countries into the conflict. We’ll go more into under what conditions you can use this and exactly how it works at a later time.

Russia’s unexpected attempt to build stronger relations with the Ottomans is not being received well at the Sublime Porte
dd20 2v2.png

Ongoing Actions (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Improve Relations: This is an ongoing action that slowly raises relations up to a maximum value of 50 (out of 100). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the target has a high Rank
  • Damage Relations: This is an ongoing action that slowly lowers relations down to a minimum value of -50 (out of -100). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the target has a high Rank
  • Bankroll: This is an ongoing action where one country pays a part of its monetary income to another each week as direct subsidies to their state treasury.

The contest between Siam and Dai Nam for control of Cambodia led to a longstanding regional rivalry that sparked several wars in the early 19th century
dd20 3v2.png

Non-Subject Pacts (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Alliance: This is a diplomatic pact that allows two countries to help each other when attacked in a Diplomatic Play, even if they do not have an Interest in the relevant area (more on this next week). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.
  • Customs Union: This is a diplomatic pact where there is a senior and a junior partner, and makes the junior partner part of the senior partner’s national market instead of having their own market. Costs Influence to maintain for the senior partner only, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.
  • Trade Agreement: This is a diplomatic pact which gives both countries competitive advantages when establishing trade routes in the market of the other country. Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.

A trade agreement between Russia and Prussia would let the latter tap even more deeply into the former’s timber exports and improve Russia’s access to German-made tools
dd20 4v2.png


Subject Pacts (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Protectorate: This is a type of non-colonial subject relationship where the subject is very autonomous, the only restriction placed on them being that they are not able to have a fully independent foreign policy. Can be turned into a Puppet by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Puppet: This is a type of non-colonial subject relationship where the subject has no diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Dominion: This is a type of colonial subject relationship where the subject has extensive diplomatic autonomy and can have their own subjects, though they’re still required to be part of their overlord’s market. Can be turned into a Territory by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Territory: This is a type of colonial subject relationship where the subject has limited diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Tributary: This is a special subject relationship only available to Unrecognized Powers where the subject has extensive diplomatic autonomy and can have their own subjects, though they’re required to pay part of their income to their overlord. Can be turned into a Vassal by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Vassal: This is a special subject relationship only available to Unrecognized Powers where the subject has no diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
Afghanistan has no intention of becoming a Persian tributary peacefully, and Persia will have to resort to a threat of force if they intend to press the matter further
dd20 5v2.png

Before I leave off, I also just want to briefly mention that as with many of our systems, the Diplomatic Action system is built to be completely moddable, up to and including adding new forms of Subjects or entirely new Pacts with completely custom effects. We’re quite excited to see how you all take advantage of all this moddability once the game is finally out!

Well then, that’s it! This has of course been something of a brief overview, and we’ve left out a bunch of details regarding a number of the interactions that we’ll come back to later, but it should give you a good idea of the limits of diplomacy in Victoria 3… that is, unless you’re willing to get a bit more bold, in which case you should check back next week, as we talk about Diplomatic Plays and how they will let you shatter those limits!
 
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This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading.

Make Victoria 3 said:
How will the Zollverein be handled? Having to pay upkeep for a dozen minors when apparently 25 is the minimum would cripple prussias diplomacy without having special rules/cases for that.
Edit: Even during the Bruderkrieg (prussia vs austria) the Zollverein continued as before, because it was so profitable for all members that nobody had any interest of stoping it.
Costs can vary and as always numbers are not final. The intent is for sure not for Prussia to have to use up all its Influence maintaining the Zollverein over all the Saxe-somethings.

ajlunce2 said:
it says here that tributaries and vassals are restricted to unrecognized powers, what happens if a nation becomes recognized and they have vassals or tributaries?
If a country changes country type, its subjects are automatically converted to new appropriate types of subjects (so a vassal would become a territory for instance).

Lucododosor said:
Will there be some sort of tab when we hover over the "They would not accept this proposal" message, telling us why it's still a no - and so making it clear what we can do to change their minds?
Yes.

crownsteler said:
I am a bit confused: why are protectorates classified as 'non-colonial' relationships? Weren't protectorates some of the more common form of colonial relationships? What exactly do you guys define as 'colonial relationship'?
As there was no standardization of what different type of client states were called, we can't really map every type of subject name to every historical relationship. We chose to use Protectorate for the more generic subject type to due its widespread usage in the era.

Cosmonaut15 said:
I saw “favor” in one of the pictures. Is it part of the obligation mechanics?

Why signing a trade agreement would means a favor? and who owe who?
Favors and Obligations are the same thing, they're being renamed from the former to the latter.

Chief of Staff said:
I just realized that there is no Guarantee Independence diplomatic action like in EU4 which is... concerning. There are historical examples of this in the nineteenth century, most important being the guarantee of neutrality for Belgium, Luxembourg, and Switzerland. In fact, the guarantee of Belgian neutrality via Treaty of London, 1839, played an important role in Britain's entry into World War I, as it was a signatory to that treaty as did Prussia, whose successor state German Empire violated it in invasion of Belgium.

Though, one issue with Guarantee Independence as a diplomatic action, as implemented in EU4, in application to treaties with respect to EU4 is that it could be easily revoked and almost instantly. I'm not sure if that would make any sense, though any countries could, by the nature of their own sovereignty, renounce or denounce a treaty that they had signed, though not always without consequences, especially the immediate kind.
As mentioned, the list here is not an exhaustive one and Guarantee Independence in some form on my todolist to implement, I'd just like to make sure that it's a little more than just something the guarantor can revoke at will though.

Somberg said:
So we know Dominions can be turned into Territories but can Territories be turned into Dominions? Can Dominions become Protectorates if they stop being colonies? I'm just thinking about the increasing autonomy Britain gave to many of its colonial subjects such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand over the course of the mid-to-late 19th century and early 20th century until they became de facto independent in almost all matters except foreign affairs.
Subjects can start plays to get more autonomy or gain independence, and more autonomous subjects can even try to expand at the expense of other subjects of the same overlord (with the overlord able to take sides or stay out of it).

blue0china said:
Will the country that was tribute to two countries like Ryukyu be represented?

And I think there are some countries that were a protectorate of great powers but made tribute to the Qing dynasty.
There are currently no mechanics for dual overlords, no.

Xain said:
The screenshot says "take on debt", while the DD says "bankroll". Are those the same thing, too?
No, they are two different actions, as outlined in the dev diary.

Shinkuro Yukinari said:
Will there be opportunities for Puppets to do diplomacy at least undercover? Modding aside, and I can see many opportunities to play around with those in regards to Ottoman and Russian subjects, I am curious as to how puppets would be able to handle diplomacy in Vanilla Vic3. Using an example from my Balkans thread and Serbia
which did unofficial diplomacy through the foreign consulates.
Subjects, including Puppets, have their own Influence which they can start their own Pacts with, manipulate Relations, etcetera. The precise nature of their subject relationship might block some of these interactions but generally the approach we've taken is to be make subject nations as autonomously playable as possible without making your subjects too annoying when you're playing as the overlord. The rule of thumb is we want entering into (or being forced into) a subject relationship with a higher-ranking country to be a strategic medium-term choice rather than a death sentence.

Faeelin said:
If you can have a puppet give income, can it give other resources (i.e., prestige, "research"?)
In addition to the tribute some subjects must pay, subject nations also confer a portion of their Prestige onto their overlord. Since they also tend to be in their overlord's market they also supply goods, add to demand, provide a semi-mobile workforce, etcetera. There's currently no other transfers of resources planned but the scriptable Pact system makes it very easy to add, so not saying it's impossible.

NotASpamBot said:
but the war declaration isn't a minor action. it's even more important than improve and damage relations. so if I would guess the violate sovereignty will be the new war declaration (that's unique to vic3)
This is where Diplomatic Plays come in and they are different from Diplomatic Actions :)

Puking Panda said:
I don't see Personal Unions being a thing under pacts. Off the top of my head during this time Norway(under Sweden), Finland(under Russia), Hannover(under Britain till 1837) Hungary(under Austria) and the Irish Free State(under Britain) were all personal unions. I guess they could fall under Protectorates or Puppets however this would obviously need some special representation in the Politics tab to show the multiple countries sharing a single monarch.
Personal Union is also a type of relatively autonomous "legacy" subject. Some PUs exist at start of game but you can't make new ones.
 
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So when are you gonna cover troops and warfare because i hope we won't have to micromanage building troops and we will be able to just use some quick build that will allow us to use premade unit template
 
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Can we Improve/Damage Relations between two different countries?
For example, as Prussia to "Damage Relations" between France and GB to prevent GB to intervene in a possible conflict between Prussia and France?
 
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Violate Sovereignty: This is an action that allows the acting country to violate the neutrality of another country through whom they need military access, creating a Diplomatic Incident and potentially bringing new countries into the conflict.

Looks like the Schlieffen Plan is back on the menu boys!
 
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Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary! Today we’ll be continuing to talk about Diplomacy, specifically on the topic of Diplomatic Actions, which are the means by which countries in Victoria 3 conduct diplomacy, build (or tear down) relations, and sign various kinds of agreements with each other.

Diplomatic Actions and how they work should be pretty familiar to anyone who’s played pretty much any other Paradox Grand Strategy game. In short, a Diplomatic Action is a type of interaction that is carried out by one country towards another, and which sometimes (but not always) requires the agreement of the other party.

As the exact requirements and effects of a Diplomatic Action are unique to each type of action, this Dev Diary will mostly just be going over which actions currently exist in the game, but before I get into that I want to briefly explain about the three distinct categories that all actions fall into and how they differ:
  • Instant Actions: These are actions that are carried out immediately upon use and/or acceptance (if acceptance is needed). They do not cost any Influence capacity as they do not require maintenance.
  • Ongoing Actions: These are unilateral actions that are carried out over time by one party towards the other, and can only be cancelled by the first party. They can have an Influence maintenance cost, in which case only the first party is the one to pay it.
  • Pacts: These are bilateral actions that are carried out over time as an agreement between two parties. If there is a maintenance cost, both parties have to pay it unless the agreement has a clear senior and junior partner (such as Subject relationships). Both parties can break the pact off, though in some cases it may require the agreement of the other party.
A look at some of the actions and pacts available between two independent countries
View attachment 766476
If you’re still a bit unclear on the difference between these three, don’t worry! It should hopefully become clearer once we start going into examples. So with no further ado, let’s talk about what actions there currently are available in the game. Please note that, as always, the game is still under active development so what’s in here may not exactly match what we have for release.

Instant Actions (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Expel Diplomats: This is an action that immediately lowers Relations with the target country, stops any ongoing attempt by them to Improve Relations with you, and blocks further Improve Relations attempts for a period of 5 years. Using Expel Diplomats also gives the acting country some Infamy, and prevents them from using Expel Diplomats on the same country for 5 years.
  • Take on Debt: This is an action that allows one country to take on the debt of another in exchange for being owed an Obligation (more on this in later dev diaries).
  • Redeem Obligation: This is an action that forgives an Obligation owed to the acting country in exchange for a large boost in Relations.
  • Violate Sovereignty: This is an action that allows the acting country to violate the neutrality of another country through whom they need military access, creating a Diplomatic Incident and potentially bringing new countries into the conflict. We’ll go more into under what conditions you can use this and exactly how it works at a later time.

Russia’s unexpected attempt to build stronger relations with the Ottomans is not being received well at the Sublime Porte
View attachment 766477
Ongoing Actions (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Improve Relations: This is an ongoing action that slowly raises relations up to a maximum value of 50 (out of 100). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the target has a high Rank
  • Damage Relations: This is an ongoing action that slowly lowers relations down to a minimum value of -50 (out of -100). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the target has a high Rank
  • Bankroll: This is an ongoing action where one country pays a part of its monetary income to another each week as direct subsidies to their state treasury.

The contest between Siam and Dai Nam for control of Cambodia led to a longstanding regional rivalry that sparked several wars in the early 19th century
View attachment 766478

Non-Subject Pacts (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Alliance: This is a diplomatic pact that allows two countries to help each other when attacked in a Diplomatic Play, even if they do not have an Interest in the relevant area (more on this next week). Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.
  • Customs Union: This is a diplomatic pact where there is a senior and a junior partner, and makes the junior partner part of the senior partner’s national market instead of having their own market. Costs Influence to maintain for the senior partner only, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.
  • Trade Agreement: This is a diplomatic pact which gives both countries competitive advantages when establishing trade routes in the market of the other country. Costs Influence to maintain, with the cost increasing if the other part has a high Rank.

A trade agreement between Russia and Prussia would let the latter tap even more deeply into the former’s timber exports and improve Russia’s access to German-made tools
View attachment 766480

Subject Pacts (not necessarily an exhaustive list):
  • Protectorate: This is a type of non-colonial subject relationship where the subject is very autonomous, the only restriction placed on them being that they are not able to have a fully independent foreign policy. Can be turned into a Puppet by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Puppet: This is a type of non-colonial subject relationship where the subject has no diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Dominion: This is a type of colonial subject relationship where the subject has extensive diplomatic autonomy and can have their own subjects, though they’re still required to be part of their overlord’s market. Can be turned into a Territory by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Territory: This is a type of colonial subject relationship where the subject has limited diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Tributary: This is a special subject relationship only available to Unrecognized Powers where the subject has extensive diplomatic autonomy and can have their own subjects, though they’re required to pay part of their income to their overlord. Can be turned into a Vassal by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
  • Vassal: This is a special subject relationship only available to Unrecognized Powers where the subject has no diplomatic autonomy, pays part of their income to their overlord and is part of the overlord’s national market. Can be annexed by their overlord through a Diplomatic Play.
Afghanistan has no intention of becoming a Persian tributary peacefully, and Persia will have to resort to a threat of force if they intend to press the matter further
View attachment 766481
Before I leave off, I also just want to briefly mention that as with many of our systems, the Diplomatic Action system is built to be completely moddable, up to and including adding new forms of Subjects or entirely new Pacts with completely custom effects. We’re quite excited to see how you all take advantage of all this moddability once the game is finally out!

Well then, that’s it! This has of course been something of a brief overview, and we’ve left out a bunch of details regarding a number of the interactions that we’ll come back to later, but it should give you a good idea of the limits of diplomacy in Victoria 3… that is, unless you’re willing to get a bit more bold, in which case you should check back next week, as we talk about Diplomatic Plays and how they will let you shatter those limits!
THAT IS DELICIOUS

Can you elaborate if favor system exists and what does it do?

Also, Alliances being purely defensive is great step. Perhaps convincing someone to join your aggressive war would require something more... Substantial?
 
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It's good to see how much work you've put into clarifying economic and subject diplomacy!

No more situations where Canada, the British Raj, and Jamaica are all treated as having the exact same relationship with the Colonial Office in London, I hope.

I hope a Master will be able to adjust their subject's pacts with them, and that, inversely, a Subject will be able to appeal for a superior relationship. Will this be possible?
 
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How will the Zollverein be handled? Having to pay upkeep for a dozen minors when apparently 25 is the minimum would cripple prussias diplomacy without having special rules/cases for that.
Edit: Even during the Bruderkrieg (prussia vs austria) the Zollverein continued as before, because it was so profitable for all members that nobody had any interest of stoping it.
 
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Al-Khalidi

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This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading.
I dont have too much things in mind, this is simply AWESOME. Exactly what I hoped for in Victoria 3. Especially different levels of subject and that we can invite someone to be a subject.
I have a small conceptual question whether when asking for something, could we offer something in return? I think this would make things amazingly more interesting and historical, for example: I ama GP and I offer to an unrecognized nation to pay their debts IN EXCHANGE for them becoming part of my customs union? That would be just great and a breakthrough in diplomacy in Paradox games.
 
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Trinexx

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1634832592205.png


Ngl I was hoping this wouldn't make a return. Probably the gamiest mechanic in any PDS game: Push button -> Receive opinion. Surely there's better ways to represent building diplomatic ties between nations?
 
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Jamaican Castle

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Can the join market dialogue have a better description of what it will actually do? Such as goods each country could expect to import/export based on conditions in the other market. Something like "Prussia would like us to join their market; they would export Tools, Guns, Paper, we would export Wood, Iron".

One thing I hate in these types of games is getting an economic request from the AI and having to spend ten minutes figuring out if it's actually a good idea because I haven't been paying attention to that specific possibility.
 
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ajlunce2

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it says here that tributaries and vassals are restricted to unrecognized powers, what happens if a nation becomes recognized and they have vassals or tributaries?
 
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EmeraldThanatos

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Come on. Vic 3 is a great leap forward from all other pdx games in so many aspects, mana complaints look rather ridiculous at this point
It's not even a valid complaint if it isn't satire. Capacities have already been explained. They aren't mana. It's not a resource that you generate over time and then spend, so it's not Mana in the same sense as the Ck3 resources or the EU4 mana thingys. Even gold doesn't work like CK3 mana gold.
 
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Fallofthepurple

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Something something interested in a trade agreement with England something.

The icons look really nice too! Im glad to see a broad range of subjects.
Before I leave off, I also just want to briefly mention that as with many of our systems, the Diplomatic Action system is built to be completely moddable, up to and including adding new forms of Subjects or entirely new Pacts with completely custom effects. We’re quite excited to see how you all take advantage of all this moddability once the game is finally out!
Magnificent :cool:
 
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Lucododosor

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Afghanistan has no intention of becoming a Persian tributary peacefully, and Persia will have to resort to a threat of force if they intend to press the matter further
View attachment 766481
Will there be some sort of tab when we hover over the "They would not accept this proposal" message, telling us why it's still a no - and so making it clear what we can do to change their minds?
 
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