• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

Thumbnail.jpg

Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
  • 272Like
  • 106Love
  • 21
  • 6
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
The intent is to try and avoid a runaway scenario where there is just one Great Power left due to the impact that would have on various diplomatic mechanics. I think if we want to simulate a power rising above the other Great Powers we should think about adding a rank above Great Power instead.
Global Hegemony let's goooooo

Even though the game is designed to avoid global control and any sort of total steamrolling, I think reaching that rank should come with some unique pros and cons that'll really throw a spanner in the management of your empire.
 
Last edited:
Other than recognized/unrecognized status, how much does the prestige tier (Great Power, Major Power, ETC) matter for things as opposed to the actual prestige number. I've never played a Victoria game before, but when I see people discussing them they seem to care an awful lot about exactly which countries are considered Great Powers.
In VIctoria 2 at least, there were lots of features (spheres of influence, joining in crises) locked behind being a Great Power (top 8), and, importantly, you had to be at least a secondary power (top 16) to colonize territory. Also, lots of decisions and events required you to be a Great Power for example.
 
You mean the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"? Previously known as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" and later known as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"? Not to be confused with the "United Kingdom of the Netherlands", "United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algraves", or the "United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway"?
Yeah but generally the United Kingdom or UK is understood to be Great Britain + Ireland/Northern Ireland. When have you ever named the United Kingdom or UK and meant anything other than Britain? There is also multiple commonwealths. That doesn't mean that the Commonwealth in EU4 needs to be called Poland or Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania. People understand what it's referring to when they look at the map.
And even going by your logic why would it be called Great Britain? Shouldn't it be called Great Britain and Ireland then?
While we're at it shouldn't the USSR also not just be called Russia in PDX games from now on since Russia is the senior entity in that union just like Great Britain is senior entity in "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"?
 
  • 4
  • 3
Reactions:
The intent is to try and avoid a runaway scenario where there is just one Great Power left due to the impact that would have on various diplomatic mechanics. I think if we want to simulate a power rising above the other Great Powers we should think about adding a rank above Great Power instead.
Ah, so like a "Super power", dominating a hemisphere (or more).
 
The intent is to try and avoid a runaway scenario where there is just one Great Power left due to the impact that would have on various diplomatic mechanics. I think if we want to simulate a power rising above the other Great Powers we should think about adding a rank above Great Power instead.
It would be interesting if the greatest power in the world had a special title
 
I know it's WIP, but Spain and Ottomans should be in the same category. Both are declining, former great powers that lack industry. Neither is capable of real power projection beyond the Mediterranean/Middle east and neither was seen as serious threat by real GPs. Also both were just recently humiliated, Spain with it's colonies and Ottomans with Serbia and Greece.
Also, maybe some laws should be small factors when it comes to pretige, I don't think the world viewed USA/Brazil very highly for their slavery or Russia for their serfdom. The UK surely did't like Brazil's slave trade so maybe minor reduction of prestige if you have laws that most GPs view as barbaric or bad. Maybe some minor increase in prestige if you have good social security laws like Prussia/Germany had. At least some people in that time period praised Germany for their social security.
 
  • 5
  • 3Like
  • 3
Reactions:
I would like to make two suggestions:
1. Please change HM's Government/Prussian Constitutionalism/Absolute Monarchy to Constitutional/Semi-Constitutional/Absolute Monarchy, as HPM does in V2. It's more generalized, and the terms fit together better.
2. Please add in leaders and major political figures from real history, especially since they were so pivotal in the era, and it isn't long enough for there to be much historical variation in people alive during the early game, anyway.
It'll be more interesting to overthrow Louis-Phillipe than an unnamed theoretical king.
 
  • 9
  • 3
Reactions:
What would happen if a set of unrecognized powers (let's just say China, Japan, and an independent India) became much more powerful and prestigious than the European Great Powers without specifically meeting the requirements to get recognition. If they're powerful enough, why would recognition by Europeans matter to them (and to the countries around them), when, really, the Europeans should be trying to get recognized by the Asian nations.

What I'm asking is, are there any sort of automatic thresholds that would prevent this from happening (So that if an unrecognized power got, let's say, twice as prestigious as rank #1, they'd automatically become recognized)? Or ... could a sufficiently powerful set of formerly unrecognized powers replace the current Great Powers as the "True Arbiters of Diplomatic Importance"?
 
  • 2
Reactions:
In VIctoria 2 at least, there were lots of features (spheres of influence, joining in crises) locked behind being a Great Power (top 8), and, importantly, you had to be at least a secondary power (top 16) to colonize territory. Also, lots of decisions and events required you to be a Great Power for example.
Well that sounds like a terrible system that should probably be replaced.
 
  • 7
  • 2
Reactions:
I'd rather you didn't take too much inspiration from that. By any reasonable standard Japan was 'Recognized' by the major European powers a decade earlier at least. The Anglo-Japanese alliance - the UK's first major alliance in decades! - was before the Russo-Japanese war. The 1894 Anglo-Japanese Treaty of Commerce and Navigation was an agreement between equal nations, showing that the UK at least recognized Japan as being of a standing with 'major powers' by then. No more treaty ports, a recognition of Japanese sovereignty in their territory, etc. By the end of the 19th century the UK, US, France and Russia were all taking Japan very seriously on the world stage, recognizing them as a rising threat (for the latter three) or as a valuable counterweight to Russian expansion (for the UK)

Agreed that Russo-Japanese War is too late. I'd probably peg Japan becoming recognized to Meiji Constitution of 1889 (i.e. effectively adopting an European style government), and at latest to victory in 1st Sino Japanese War. One thing that does stand out from RJW era is that it's around that time Japan finally achieved capability to design and build modern European style battleships at home yards. I think that could be useful motif for a military-technological path to becoming a recognized state.
 
  • 7
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
That seems a little low for Mexico in 1836. Historically, for example, in the Mexican-American War the Mexican army was larger than that of the US. The effectiveness of the Mexican army was hampered by internal political issues and the US had a technological advantage, but the US should not have a numerical advantage like they pretty much invariably do in Vic2.
 
  • 6
  • 3Like
Reactions:
That seems like it could make the problem of too few/too many nations worse, as it might be much easier to have 10% of all prestige if there's 20 nations than if there are 200. Though prestige would scale up to the greater size of countries, so it could work, but what we have now works quite well as it is.
The threshold I think would make the most sense is something along the lines of prestige versus sum(prestige * population^n) / world_population^n, with some parameter n that controls the strength of the effect. Small countries being annexed into the largest, most prestigious ones makes this value increase, while non-prestigious states conquering one another have a negligible impact. So if the strongest nations get much bigger, it forces lower ranked GPs to keep up or be dropped out of GP status over the course of the game, but it's agnostic to the consolidation of twenty small tribes into five states.
 
Does France start at Empire tier? If not, how do you simulate France's transition from Kingdom to Empire under Napoleon III? Additionally, is the UK an Empire-tier tag?
 
I know its more a cold war idea but maybe have super power as a rank if you meet conditions. Like what if the player can destroy the other great powers and balkanize them or somthing? what if theres only 1 country on the map at game end or idk im sure theres other examples. of if playing multiplayer, could say 2-3 players become super powers be just teaming up on the ai?
 
I know its more a cold war idea but maybe have super power as a rank if you meet conditions. Like what if the player can destroy the other great powers and balkanize them or somthing? what if theres only 1 country on the map at game end or idk im sure theres other examples. of if playing multiplayer, could say 2-3 players become super powers be just teaming up on the ai?
if there is only 1 country game is over
for the other scenarios though, even if it didnt happen in the time frame, getting at special additionnal Super Power very hard to get if you have like triple prestige of average great power or something like that could be interesting, even if the bonuses are just some extra influence or a shiny frame in leaderboard
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: