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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
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Agreed that Russo-Japanese War is too late. I'd probably peg Japan becoming recognized to Meiji Constitution of 1889 (i.e. effectively adopting an European style government), and at latest to victory in 1st Sino Japanese War. One thing that does stand out from RJW era is that it's around that time Japan finally achieved capability to design and build modern European style battleships at home yards. I think that could be useful motif for a military-technological path to becoming a recognized state.
Correct, it should be recognized already in the 1880s. Here's Japan ratifying the Paris Declaration on Maritime Law in 1886: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appl...Pages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=105
 
Well and its good to be so. While having a great art certainly can somehow increase nation's fame in the world, the idea of becoming a GP just by art is beyond ridiculous and btw hopelessly easy in some cases. I honestly hope something like this won't be possible. How about simply building a proper nation from the start? :)

Yeah exactly, isn't it sort of "gamey", like, I just build this, then I am Great Power, almost like Age of Empires:D

From what we see, rank is going to dynamically reflect actual status of the nation on international stage, not some abstracted score. And thats really lovely

I just hope they will increase Impact of dynamic values, like gdp and military over the one of static values, like title, <art academies>, or some permanent modifiers.
 
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Well and its good to be so. While having a great art certainly can somehow increase nation's fame in the world, the idea of becoming a GP just by art is beyond ridiculous and btw hopelessly easy in some cases. I honestly hope something like this won't be possible. How about simply building a proper nation from the start? :)
I guess my tone didn't quite come through in writing. As I wrote I agreed with the change, I was just lamenting former glories. :) As for the nation building, well, lets just say I think Vic 2 had some quirks you had to game around as a small nation, and besides I'd argue my glorious art empire was a much better place to live and had a much sounder economy than the moribund GPs trying to inflate their status with useless grand armies and navies ;)
 
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Is region / home region come into play when considering the ranking? Otherwise, how could remote regions like Mongolia solve thier local conflict when there is no other major recognized countries apart from Russia? Or in case the Kingdom of Hawaii comes into conflict with local tribes in Papua New Guinea?
 
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I guess my tone didn't quite come through in writing. As I wrote I agreed with the change, I was just lamenting former glories. :) As for the nation building, well, lets just say I think Vic 2 had some quirks you had to game around as a small nation, and besides I'd argue my glorious art empire was a much better place to live and had a much sounder economy than the moribund GPs trying to inflate their status with useless grand armies and navies ;)
One can't argue with the last point :)
 
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I guess my tone didn't quite come through in writing. As I wrote I agreed with the change, I was just lamenting former glories. :) As for the nation building, well, lets just say I think Vic 2 had some quirks you had to game around as a small nation, and besides I'd argue my glorious art empire was a much better place to live and had a much sounder economy than the moribund GPs trying to inflate their status with useless grand armies and navies ;)
Yes, I don't think it's good that art prestige could be gamed in Vic2 and it's being fixed. Otherwise, you'd get the Grand duchy of Tuscany as a great power.
 
about country tiers, on one hand I get it, disraeli wanted to crown victoria as empress of india because he considered it unnacceptable that her daughters (married to the crownprinces of germany and russia) would have higher titles then her

on the other hand should examples such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Empire_of_Haiti really give extra prestige
I'd guess it won't work like that. Forming a new tag might come with a change in rank in cases where it makes sense historically, and not have much to do with whatever title the current ruler decided to use, whether that is King, Prince, Emperor or President. Thus I'd guess Serbia forming Yugoslavia might come with a change in rank, because it's seen as a larger and more prestigious realm, despite the monarch still having the title of king.

My guess is purely declaratory rank changes such as Victoria becoming Empress of India would at most be handled by a country decision giving a small boost in prestige as long as the UK holds India. Or perhaps Empress of India is the decision where the UK annexes the EIC.
 
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I hope the design of the Persian monarchs will be changed. Search for pictures of some Persian Kings from this period, such as Nasseredin, Mozzafaredin, Mohammadali and Ahmad Shah Qajar and compare their pictures with the one in this dev diary representing the King of Persia. Compared to the historical Kings this animation looks like a beggar. It seems it must be a generic Middle Eastern animation.
 
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And please don't put the EIC as the 8th strongest "nation" in the game. It's insane. The EIC was by no means the 7th most powerful "nation" in the world in 1836. And I think it is a very bad decision gameplay wise too (EIC shouldn't have enough power to intervine in Europe in 1836, for example).
Would be cool to see the EIC become master of India as a fascist-capitalist apartheid regime and use its power base to control Asia.
 
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Doesn't matter. The UK was officially formed in 1801. Just because "Great Britain" is used incorrectly on maps from that time doesn't make it right.
Yes it does. Most countries weren't called like they are in the games. Just "France", just "Prussia", just "Spain" are alright, but for GB it doesn't matter all of sudden?
 
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Yes it does. Most countries weren't called like they are in the games. Just "France", just "Prussia", just "Spain" are alright, but for GB it doesn't matter all of sudden?
Agree - in the same way one could argue that Ottoman Empire is wrong and we should have "The Sublime Ottoman State" instead :D
 
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  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
can you give us some examples?
like tsardom of Russia, empire of France, empire of Austria-Hungary, german empire would be like 100
kingdom of Prussia,Sweden, Persia would be 50
City-State, Principality > 50
are special ones like the caliphate, the mandate of heaven or the papal state giving like 150?

what is the current Tier list?
 
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Correct, it should be recognized already in the 1880s. Here's Japan ratifying the Paris Declaration on Maritime Law in 1886: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appl...Pages_NORMStatesParties&xp_treatySelected=105

I'd still withhold recognition until the Meiji constitution. In particular:

Achieving equality with the West was one of the primary goals of the Meiji leaders. Treaty reform, designed to end the foreigners’ judicial and economic privileges provided by extraterritoriality and fixed customs duties was sought as early as 1871 when the Iwakura mission went to the United States and Europe. The Western powers insisted, however, that they could not revise the treaties until Japanese legal institutions were reformed along European and American lines. Efforts to reach a compromise settlement in the 1880s were rejected by the press and opposition groups in Japan. It was not until 1894, therefore, that treaty provisions for extraterritoriality were formally changed.

 
Tell me which of the reigning Great Powers in 1836 considered the East India Company as its equal?
A country under the dominion of another is largely subservient to its overlord in diplomatic matters. If someone wants to mess with the EIC they're also forced to deal with Great Britain, so their Recognition status is largely irrelevant under these circumstances.

But what really matters is what happens if a Subject nation gains its independence. If EIC decided to mount a rebellion against the Crown and successfully became an independent Major Power in the Indian subcontinent, would the Great Powers treat it with some modicum of respect or would they be considered irrelevant other than as a ripe target for exploitation? The game mechanics argue that the former makes more sense.

And to be clear, if an Unrecognized country is Puppeted and subsequently Released, its status as Unrecognized remains.
 
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But what really matters is what happens if a Subject nation gains its independence. If EIC decided to mount a rebellion against the Crown and successfully became an independent Major Power in the Indian subcontinent, would the Great Powers treat it with some modicum of respect or would they be considered irrelevant other than as a ripe target for exploitation? The game mechanics argue that the former makes more sense.

And to be clear, if an Unrecognized country is Puppeted and subsequently Released, its status as Unrecognized remains.
And puppet can't become a great power without rebelling, right?
Would annexing such powerful puppet be a longervprocess compared to small one, like in eu4?
 
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