Stellaris Dev Diary #77 - Ethics Voice Packs

[Juboboman]

PS: Tomorrow, as a thought experiment, I'll see what my wife thinks of the voices. I'll also see what she thinks of the accusations.

Don't bother. They already have an answer for thought crimes such as that: internalized misogyny. So even if your wife doesn't like it, Wiz can stroll in and accuse her of misogyny also for having internalized the patriarchy.

It's misogynists all the way down.

 

[Scorchlite]

If that's "merely" what you want, then you are condescending. "Oh, you poor, stupid people that have no idea that you have emotions, and that emotions affect how you respond to things! Why did no one tell you!"

I said 'merely' because that is all I am saying, nothing to do with social predjudices and people weren't/aren't getting my point. It was not intended as condescending (and I apologise if it was) because it is another way of saying 'this is all I am saying, nothing more or less'. I think people are getting way too worked up about this and interpreting things how they want. I'm not stating people have an unconscious female bias and this is why they hate the VO. My original post is saying I understand Wiz's arguement because... these unconscious influences can exist and I can see how it might affect some in this situation. I saw people laying into him and thought 'hey I understand where I think he is coming from and shall write a post to show some support, and maybe discuss things or show an alternative view with other people'. Honestly, I've just received a load of shit rather than a good discussion. I also stated that I can not and would not state whether this bias was true for people in this thread. I also don't think what I'm saying is really to do with emotions as it is unconscious and affects what you think and feel on the surface without them realising without a lot of introspection. Whether it is a good or bad market decision I don't know and I wasn't saying one way or the other at all. Please read what I write and don't make assumptions.

You are not listening. My point is this: the VO is not "militaristic", because it adopts a tone, and uses a script NEVER EMPLOYED BY ANY MILITARY ANYWHERE, EVER, except in the minds of people who have never been in, associated with, or even ever met anyone who has been in the military, and choose to make up behaviors, dialog and characteristics based not on reality, but on cartoonish prejudices of what the military must be like.

Your not seeing the relevance of my reference to barbarian hordes is equally obtuse. Whether deliberately or for rhetorical purposes I do not know. The VO does not match that of a professional military demeanor, but it does sound vaguely like that of the leader of a barbarian horde. Which, again, has nothing to do with the ethos of anyone who could have actually ever made it into space without blowing themselves up either first or immediately thereafter, except in the mind of someone who has no familiarity with the concept of military service in the modern age.

And finally, don't tell me to "broaden my imagination". It is plenty broad. If they want to create barbarian hordes in space, fine. Give that aberration its own ethos, and that VO. But don't saddle people who just want to play an orderly, professional militaristic society with that stereotype and not give them any options to work around it (again, I don't think authoritarian will fit that bill, because of the in-game effects it provides, which are societal and creepy, and not military at all).

It is not the view of militaristic in how you interpret it. Yes I know, that is abundantly clear. It is also not humanity and earth's current way of being militaristic. This is true. But this game is not set on earth. This is not historical. Thus my comment on not getting why historic hordes being beaten on earth are relevant. Perhaps that was ALL there was in this alien planet. How is some human tribe being beaten relevant in any way to a fantasy planet of aliens? This is sci-fi. A quick google define search of militaristic comes up with at the very top of the page:

adjective
adjective: militaristic
advocating or pursuing an aggressive military policy; hawkish.
"the president and his militaristic administration"
synonyms: warmongering, war-loving, warlike, martial, hawkish, pugnacious, combative, aggressive, belligerent, bellicose

There is a whole breadth of interpretations to the ethics and I use these to create different custom races in my games to populate my galaxies. If you read my first post you'll also see that my first reaction was the same as your interpretation of militarist... it is what I first thought and expected as well. However, I can understand and appreciate alternative views. If you cannot see it or disagree that such a thing is possible, then okay. But it seems Paradox has and chose to go with it. I respect that decision.

 

[BIGTEX285]

I guess my girlfriend is a misogynist too...

 

[-Marauder-]

This is getting ridiculous. We all like Stellaris so if you don't like the voice just don't use it. I don't like the voice either for militarist but I'm just going to use the Xenophobe one for my empire anyways. I do agree with you guys that it would have been great for Fanatic Purifiers or Honorbound Warriors but Wiz is clearly going complete SJW with this which means he can't be reasoned with its more beneficial to just ignore him than waste time and energy complaining about it.

Here's the problem. You CANNOT ignore the guy in charge of the game. It's not possible if you want to stick with the game and would like to see it grow and develop. I mostly came here to voice my opinions about the way they went portraying the ethos. Given I liked the approach they had in the Utopia trailer.

Just to basically have Wiz insult and slander me and everyone else who did not like the way they went with it because he apparently has gotten caught up way too deep in some ideological driven issues.

 

[Coyote027]

My original post is saying I understand Wiz's arguement because... these unconscious influences can exist and I can see how it might affect some in this situation.

Well, yes, perhaps in more ways than you meant to say. Everyone has cultural biases. Being "more progressive" does not in any way mean that those biases are fewer in number or weaker in strength, only that they're different than what others may have. Wiz's response was apparent to many of us to be a reaction from cultural bias, just as a stereotypically social-conservative response would have been as well.


EDIT: Frankly, I couldn't care less what the devs' political views are as long as they don't force them into the game. The office can be filled with Lenin busts or Falangist posters and they can bow to a shrine to Tojo and chant "tenno heika banzai" every morning if they want, that's not my problem or my concern, as long as it doesn't become an ideology ham-fistedly injected into their product.

 

[Everstill]

That's all well and good. Well, it's not actually because conflating professional behavior with censorship... but yeah, well and good...

The fact still remains that unless your business is shock-jock radio, or something similar, you don't put the person with bad people skills into positions that require customer engagement. Has nothing to do with censorship or 'bennings'.

I stated why that is a fact in my initial post, but I will be fair and expand on that point here.

You put someone in a customer service position, they will be acting as the 'face' of your business, the person your customers will be interacting with personally/on the phone/ect. How that person behaves reflects upon the business he's representing. The customer is going to remember how that employee treated them. They are going to remember if that employee had a nasty attitude and the customer is going to remember that they had to ask for manager to get anything resembling decent respect. They're not going to remember the nice VP of sales they never met, they're not going to remember the bunch of good guys and gals down at the factory who would give you half of their last meal if you said you were hungry... they're going to remember that employee who's a jerk. They're going to remember where that jerk works. Who that jerk works for.

That goes for all levels of employment. From the register jockeys up to the CEOs. Say what you want on your own twitter, facebook or whatever. Say the most controversial things you want. Say the same things on the company twitter account or public facebook page however... don't be shocked or surprised when whoever signs your paychecks tells you that you are welcome to go to the competition and behave that way. I have literally fired people for such behavior and yes, encouraged them to go work for the competition. Even gave the reference.

And as for crying censorship over these facts.... get out, serioiusly just get out.

I understand all the things about business, customer service, etc.... In fact, I'm pretty sure the customer service from Paradox treat everyone well, people really remember jerks from customer service.

But i'm talking specific about this place, a forum is supposed to be a place to open expression and debate things, free speech and yada yada you know?

We can't really have a real discussion if all of the Paradox employers can't really say what they think about the things of the game. We are here do discuss Stellaris, they have to talk the truth about things. I'm really tired of PR talk from other companies, they simple have canned messages to everything that in fact don't say anything.

For example, Wiz could simple have said: "Your concern is on our radar and be sure that we will bring to you guys our best quality work". For god sake, this means nothing, canned PR messages are the worst. I much prefer to be called a mysoginist if this is really what he thinks and the reason the VO will not be changed. In the world of video games I get more pissed off from PR talk than being called whatever they want and receiving the true cold hard facts.

It's good to have a meaningfull discussion.

View attachment 284624

I guess my girlfriend is a misogynist too...

She's a fucking white female! ..... oh wait...

But serious, case closed?

 

[Jean-Luc]

The thing with the quote is that it's historical and old so it feel anachronistic and weird in a futuristic setting. It'd be that way regardless of how it was spoken. Still not sure if it's supposed to be a random sample or if it's intended to be used in the game.

In a game with so many possibilities "militarism" is open for interpretation. It can imply discipline and drill but it can be just plain aggression too, it comes down to personal preference and roleplay.

It's probably true that there would've been fewer complaints if the voice were male (this is mostly subconscious anyway) but many people also associate "growling" with a more medieval-type setting while sci-fi is expected to be more Starship Troopers-like, these reasons can all co-exist in one person and be genuine.

I do admit I find good ol' Santiago easier on the ears.

In any case it's not worth getting one's panties in a twist so much.

 

[Coyote027]

I understand all the things about business, customer service, etc.... In fact, I'm pretty sure the customer service from Paradox treat everyone well, people really remember jerks from customer service.

But i'm talking specific about this place, a forum is supposed to be a place to open expression and debate things, free speech and yada yada you know?

We can't really have a real discussion if all of the Paradox employers can't really say what they think about the things of the game. We are here do discuss Stellaris, they have to talk the truth about things. I'm really tired of PR talk from other companies, they simple have canned messages to everything that in fact don't say anything.

For example, Wiz could simple have said: "Your concern is on our radar and be sure that we will bring to you guys our best quality work". For god sake, this means nothing, canned PR messages are the worst. I much prefer to be called a mysoginist if this is really what he thinks and the reason the VO will not be changed. In the world of video games I get more pissed off from PR talk than being called whatever they want and receiving the true cold hard facts.

It's good to have a meaningfull discussion.

I think you have a fair point here. We may disagree with him, but he was being honest and forthright about his opinion, which at least says something I guess.
It may not really be a pleasant discussion to have, but in these current times it is a discussion that needs to happen.

 

[Scorchlite]

Well, yes, perhaps in more ways than you meant to say. Everyone has cultural biases. Being "more progressive" does not in any way mean that those biases are fewer in number or weaker in strength, only that they're different than what others may have. Wiz's response was apparent to many of us to be a reaction from cultural bias, just as a stereotypically social-conservative response would have been as well.


EDIT: Frankly, I couldn't care less what the devs' political views are as long as they don't force them into the game. The office can be filled with Lenin busts or Falangist posters and they can bow to a shrine to Tojo and chant "tenno heika banzai" every morning if they want, that's not my problem or my concern, as long as it doesn't become an ideology ham-fistedly injected into their product.

This is pretty much exactly what I am saying / want to say.. I don't get why we get different upvotes or downvotes. Perhaps my delivery is poor? Typing on a forum is not that easy to convey what I want properly, especially when trying to tread carefully in what is a minefield topic. I do understand the negative reaction to his comments, but I felt that there was at least an element of truth in them - or at least the possibility of that truth - that was being overlooked entirely, and wanted to balance things a bit.

Edit: I'm thinking the same few people are just going to downvote everything I say regardless as some kind of statement, lol. Maybe I'm wrong, but how can you 'respectfully disagree' with a statement of someone else's thought patterns? It makes no sense.

 

[CrowScape]

I said 'merely' because that is all I am saying, nothing to do with social predjudices and people weren't/aren't getting my point. It was not intended as condescending (and I apologise if it was) because it is another way of saying 'this is all I am saying, nothing more or less'.

Fair enough, however, we are emotional creatures. It's in everything you do. You can therefore follow that logic and use it to dismiss anyone's reaction to anything. That's why I said it was not useful, and in fact worse than useless.

Because this is what happens when you try to dime-store psychoanalyze people in mass.

My original post is saying I understand Wiz's arguement because... these unconscious influences can exist and I can see how it might affect some in this situation.

And this is why we must come down on him. Keep going with my "example," only spread this to an entire industry, where this goes on year after year. If you criticize something a woman has done, you must have latent misogyny somewhere: it's unconscious, there's really nothing you can do about it. This thinking now pervades an entire industry. The people in charge of getting product out now have to ask themselves every time they criticize a female employee "Will I be branded a misogynist for this?" What are they going to do? They're going to shut up about it. Problems will persist. Work product will suffer. Customers will start to notice.

Now the industry is conditioning customers to associate women with crap products. So, when some developer announces that a beloved game series from the 1980s is being resurrected--only the big news and selling point for this is that the four previously male PCs are all going to be female--you'll get a negative visceral from the fans of that series.

At that point, the game developer can shout misogyny, because there are people now openly stating that "women ruin everything." But the thing is, the origin of that perception is the very "recognition" of "unconscious biases" that caused the industry to second guess itself and pull its punches with female talent in the first place. However, hey, people are criticizing women, so we can host YouTube events of our lead female talent taunting male gamers and laughing about ruining their childhoods. Because that's how we allay concerns; by insulting people. Again, worse than useless: it causes and reinforces the very condition that it is ostensibly there to combat.

Wiz has just come on to this board and announced that Paradox cannot be trusted to get the most out of its female talent. Every time Paradox announces a new female employee, there will now be people shaking their heads over it not because of their own biases, but because of Wiz's statement.

It's corrosive. It's not fair to the customers, and it's not fair to the women Paradox employs.

That is what it means to understand Wiz's argument.

 

[King of Zoot]

I think you just told us more about your own weird hang ups then anything Wiz said.

 

[Summin Cool]

It's less that people are associating women with a bad game, it's more SJWs that employ poor quality employees in favour of "diversity" and like-minded political beliefs rather than skills and competence. Note the degree of women employment in more SJW companies, despite the ratio of women in the industry. IE Are companies employing inferior employees in favour of SJW Politics appeasement? Compare Bioware and Larian Studios or CD Projekt for example.

This isn't the only reason a game can be bad, but it appears that there is a trend showing. I have a strong feeling that the level of quality in a Game development company isn't caused by having a high degree of SJWism, but SJWism has traits that can lead to a poor quality content being produced. In other words, companies in order to pander to politics internal or otherwise sacrifice quality to the point where it actually shows.

 

[SnakeInATopHat]

Meh...

 

[King of Zoot]

Unless you have access to the HR files of every dev studio (which you don't) you have no idea what the demographic make up of any given studio is let alone what proportion of people are "SJW".

 

[TheChronoMaster]

It's less that people are associating women with a bad game, it's more SJWs that employ poor quality employees in favour of "diversity" and like-minded political beliefs rather than skills and competence. Note the degree of women employment in more SJW companies, despite the ratio of women in the industry. IE Are companies employing inferior employees in favour of SJW Politics appeasement? Compare Bioware and Larian Studios or CD Projekt for example.

This isn't the only reason a game can be bad, but it appears that there is a trend showing. I have a strong feeling that the level of quality in a Game development company isn't caused by having a high degree of SJWism, but SJWism has traits that can lead to a poor quality content being produced. In other words, companies in order to pander to politics internal or otherwise sacrifice quality to the point where it actually shows.

Or it could be that you're imagining the problem, Larian's writing quality has always been the same as it is now (jokey, not very good), Bioware's decline has more to do with pressures from EA than any sort of weird SJW religion that they sacrifice superior male talent for, and Wiz is a guy who has had a pretty logically self-consistent viewpoint ever since he was a nonpaid modder, where even if I don't agree with every aspect of what he says, he always has a reason for saying what he does and it is generally well thought out and backed up with numbers?

 

[Devin90]

Hello. This is my first time posting on this board. I've lurked here for a long time but honestly, this is the first time I really felt I needed to say something.

Wiz...listen.
Before Stellaris, I didn't know about you or any others on the Paradox team. I played Crusader Kings, and I loved it, but just casually.
It was only in Stellaris that I really got invested in things. I was excited for every new dev diary and wanted to see what every stream had to show.
I came to these forums and I was happy to see devs that interact with their community. Who listen and discuss things together and enjoy all being fans of a great game.

This today... it surprised me. It disappointed me.
I really didn't expect to see a developer I respected showing such disrespect to their own community.
Calling people sexist because they didn't like a voice that happened to be female? This reeks of simply writing off valid criticism as bigotry simply because you saw a chance to do so.

I have always strongly supported equality for all people, and I take great pride in that.
And now you have the audacity to call me, and others within the community sexist because we dared to criticize something?
How dare you? What right do you have, to throw such accusations at us? We have given you no reason to. All we did was commit the apparently unforgivable sin of not liking one voice actor.

I feel disgusted. This is a cheap cop out and a betrayal of your own community.
I really expected better from you.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Hello. This is my first time posting on this board. I've lurked here for a long time but honestly, this is the first time I really felt I needed to say something.

Wiz...listen.
Before Stellaris, I didn't know about you or any others on the Paradox team. I played Crusader Kings, and I loved it, but just casually.
It was only in Stellaris that I really got invested in things. I was excited for every new dev diary and wanted to see what every stream had to show.
I came to these forums and I was happy to see devs that interact with their community. Who listen and discuss things together and enjoy all being fans of a great game.

This today... it surprised me. It disappointed me.
I really didn't expect to see a developer I respected showing such disrespect to their own community.
Calling people sexist because they didn't like a voice that happened to be female? This reeks of simply writing off valid criticism as bigotry simply because you saw a chance to do so.

I have always strongly supported equality for all people, and I take great pride in that.
And now you have the audacity to call me, and others within the community sexist because we dared to criticize something?
How dare you? What right do you have, to throw such accusations at us? We have given you no reason to. All we did was commit the apparently unforgivable sin of not liking one voice actor.

I feel disgusted. This is a cheap cop out and a betrayal of your own community.
I really expected better from you.

Why do you feel like he was talking to you, if you were not a sexist? He did not say the entire fanbase was sexist, he didn't say even a portion of it was. He said they'd receive many more complaints than usual, they planned for that, and they did. Why do you interpret that as him calling you a sexist? Is there some reason you believe he was talking about you? Do you have some reason to be offended for yourself, and not for others?

What it comes down to is this: If you believe he was talking about you, you believe there is some merit to his comments, and are offended about being called out. You cannot logically believe he was talking about you if you are not a sexist, as he did not at any point refer to 100% of the population of the paradox fanbase as sexist. To that end, any portion of people he talked about (and he never once referred to a portion of people, only a portion of complaints) does not include people who are not sexists.

If you do not believe he was talking about you, you have no reason to be offended, except on behalf of others. Which is it?

 

[Dakka]

Hooray for immersion!

 

[Summin Cool]

Or it could be that you're imagining the problem, Larian's writing quality has always been the same as it is now (jokey, not very good), Bioware's decline has more to do with pressures from EA than any sort of weird SJW religion that they sacrifice superior male talent for, and Wiz is a guy who has had a pretty logically self-consistent viewpoint ever since he was a nonpaid modder, where even if I don't agree with every aspect of what he says, he always has a reason for saying what he does and it is generally well thought out and backed up with numbers?

I never said women are directly inferior, I may have implied it but what I mean is this: The current ratio of male to female devs is ~10:2 at a rough guess, lets assuming both genders are equal with some employees being good and some being bad. If you want good quality employees, your going to have to have a company at 10:2 ratio. But if you want a 5:5 ratio your going to have to hire the bad female employees as well. That's where I am coming from.

Secondly, some of Bioware's failure with Andromeda has been attributed to internal politics which is what I am suggesting with this SJW angle. In addition employees are at fault with the poor quality of Andromeda and Dragon age: Inquisition, just look at the animations.

I thought Wiz was actually alright until he started calling everyone sexist and throwing out that dumb 10% that wasn't backed up at all.

 

[eatssteak3]

It's both. We'd be having this discussion regardless but it would not be nearly as pronounced. There's been a few comments about Xenophobe tone, there would likely have been more if we had cast a woman in the same role (but not as many, since it's a more 'appropriate' tone for a woman)

I just want to say, this is a textbook example of the fallacious line of reasoning "correlation does imply causation". Just because women doing X does or apparently does tend to bring around far more criticism, does not mean it's BECAUSE it's women doing x. Perhaps when women do, say, crazy voiceovers, their voices are more screechy and therefore harder on the ears than an equivalent example of male VO (or are you denying women's voices are on average higher pitched than male ones?). This is not to say this is the explanation, merely that the assumption that it's basically "because people find certain tones for women inappropriate" isn't what the data concludes to. You're playing guesswork and passing it off as deduction with your "I'm still right though" post. You MAY be right, but you certainly haven't evidenced or established that you are.