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Stellaris Dev Diary #54 - Ethics Rework

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Now that 1.4 is out, we can finally start properly talking about the 1.5 'Banks' update, which will be a major update with an accompanying (unannounced) expansion. As of right now we cannot provide any details on when 1.5 will come out, or anything about the unannounced expansion, so please don't ask. :)

Today's topic is a number of changes coming to ethics in the 1.5 update. Everything in this diary is part of the free update. Please note that values shown in screenshots are always non-final.

Authoritarian vs Egalitarian
One of the things in Stellaris I was never personally happy with was the Collectivism vs Individualism ethic. While interesting conceptually, the mechanics that the game presented for the ethics simply did not match either their meanings or flavor text, meaning you ended up with a Collectivist ethos that was somehow simultaneously egalitarian and 100% in on slavery, while Individualism was a confused jumble between liberal democratic values and randian free-market capitalism. For this reason we've decided to rebrand these ethics into something that should both be much more clear in its meaning, and match the mechanics as they are.

Authoritarian replaces Collectivist and represents belief in hierarchial rule and orderly, stratified societies. Authoritarian pops tolerate slavery and prefer to live in autocracies.
Egalitarian replaces Individualist and represents belief in individual rights and a level playing field. Egalitarian pops dislike slavery and elitism and prefer to live in democracies.

While I understand this may cause some controversy and will no doubt spark debate over people's interpretation of words like Authoritarian and Individualist, I believe that we need to work with the mechanics we have, and as it stand we simply do not have good mechanics for a Collectivism vs Individualism axis while the mechanics we have fit the rebranded ethics if not perfectly then at least a whole lot better.
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Pop Ethics Rework
Another mechanic that never quite felt satisfying is the ethics divergence mechanic. Not only is it overly simplified with just a single value determining if pops go towards or from empire ethics, the shift rarely makes sense: Why would xenophobe alien pops diverge away from xenophobe just because they're far away from the capital of a xenophobic empire? Furthermore, the fact that pops could have anything from one to three different ethics made it extremely difficult to actually quantify what any individual pop's ethics actually mean for how they relate to the empire. For this reason we've decided to revamp the way pop ethics work in the following way:
  • Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants.
  • Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
  • Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.
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So what does the single ethic per pop mean in terms of how it affects pop happiness? Well, this brings us to the new faction system, which we will cover briefly in this dev diary, and get back to more in depth later.

Faction Rework
One thing we feel is currently missing from Stellaris is agency for your pops. Sure, they have their ethics and will get upset if you have policies that don't suit them, but that's about the only way they have of expressing their desires, and there is no tie-in between pop ethics and the politics systems in the game. To address this and also to create a system that will better fit the new pop ethics, we've decided to revamp the faction system in the following manner:
  • Factions are no longer purely rebel groupings, but instead represent political parties, popular movements and other such interest groups, and mostly only consist of pops of certain ethics. For example, the Supremacist faction desires complete political dominance for their own species, and is made up exclusively of Xenophobic pops, while the Isolationist faction wants diplomatic isolation and a strong defense, and can be joined by both Pacifist and Xenophobe pops. You do not start the game with any factions, but rather they will form over the course of the game as their interests become relevant
  • Factions have issues related to their values and goals, and how well the empire responds to those issues will determine the overall happiness level of the faction. For example, the Supremacists want the ruler to be of their species and are displeased by the presence of free alien populations in the empire. They will also get a temporary happiness boost whenever you defeat alien empires in war.
  • The happiness level of a faction determines the base happiness of all pops belonging to it. This means that where any pop not belonging to a faction has a base happiness of 50%, a pop belonging to a faction that have their happiness reduced to 35% because of their issues will have a base happiness of only 35% before any other modifiers are applied, meaning that displeasing a large and influential faction can result in vastly reduced productivity across your empire. As part of this, happiness effects from policies, xenophobia, slavery, etc have been merged into the faction system, so engaging in alien slavery will displease certain factions instead of having each pop individually react to it.
  • Factions have an influence level determined by the number of pops that belong to it. In addition to making its pops happier, a happy faction will provide an influence boost to their empire.
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We will come back to factions in greater detail in a later dev diary, going over topics such as how separatists and rebellious slaves will work, and how factions can be used to change your empire ethics, but for now we are done for today. Next week we'll be talking about another new feature that we have dubbed 'Traditions and Unity'. See you then!
 
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Let me put out like this: A direct democracy doesn't need a constitution or laws beyond "the majority is always right and can do whatever they want". 51% can vote that the 49% all need to die a horrible death or work as slaves for them.

Meanwhile a constitution limiting the power of a small majority to meddle in the private affairs of the individual, to promise them equality before the law and to respect their property rights is very much egalitarian.
 
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I quite like what is presented here. My question is why pops are restricted to non-fanatic ethos when surely the most obsessed people over an idea would be fanatic towards an ethic. Maybe it would be a rare modifier resulting from extremist factions that could cause problems within the empire?
 
The IRL Soviet Union was not "egalitarian" in reality, is the problem with that objection. It was controlled by an elite that claimed to be acting for the people but in reality were not.

As for an Authoritarian Utopia... that's, uh, basically the Enlightened Monarchy. Authoritarian as hell, but focused on the good of the people.

But in this game it CAN be. In this game the elite of the Space Soviet Union can act for the people and make a authoritarian egalitarian regime.

And you read the description, egalitarians pops will be ANGRY in my enlighted monarchy regime, even if the concept is that I give everything to everyone. Plus, if they make the same restrictions that Fanatic Individualist have, you literally can't choose enlighted monarchy if you are egalitarian or fanatic egalitarian.
 
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WIz one thing that i liked in eu4 is that you could support rebels in other nations.
Do you have any plans, for adding the ability to support factions in other empires?
 
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An alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
So the species being purged becomes more likely to be xenophobic, yes? Is that just at the level of the empire doing the purging, or across that species galaxy-wide?

Following on from that, is there any likelihood of an "accepted/tolerated aliens" mechanic? Say the Imperium of Man made such good friends with the Blorg that they saw them as distinct from the other alien scum, meaning they no longer got Xenophobic penalties towards them.
 
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But in this game it CAN be. In this game the elite of the Space Soviet Union can act for the people and make a authoritarian egalitarian regime.
Nope. You can either make an intensely egalitarian society, like a direct (or perhaps moral) democracy, that actually embodies the ideas of everyone getting what they need, OR you can make a stratified society where the majority are provided what they need by an enlightened, empowered few (i.e. an Enlightened Monarchy).

And you read the description, egalitarians pops will be ANGRY in my enlighted monarchy regime, even if the concept is that I give everything to everyone.
They're angry because what's "best" for them is being dictated by an unassailable individual with no accountability. That's not an egalitarian (read as: everyone should be equal) concept. That's benevolent dictatorship, which might be good for the people but which is no means fair or equal.

Plus, if they make the same restrictions that Fanatic Individualist have, you literally can't choose enlighted monarchy if you are egalitarian or fanatic egalitarian.
No duh.
 
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Then you have taken upon yourself a position where you have more power than anyone else thus it can be argued that it's not egalitarian. You and they are not equal before the aw and that's the core of egalitarianism.


What egalitarian are we talking about? This game egalitarianism will be only a direct democracy with socialism economic policies? Because otherwise someone will have something more than the other in any other case.
 
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Why would pops start without a fanatic version of traits if your empire starts as fanatics?

Because, at least how I interpret it, Fanatical Ethoses are just the "goal" for the empire.

Let's compare a Fanati Spiritualist/Militarist and a Fanatic Militarist/Spiritualist empire. The first one wants to proselytisise the galaxy by crusading. The second one wants to simply conquer the galaxy which they see as their divine right, they use their faith the promote their expansionist policies.

The populace cannot share the ultimate vision of an empire, they are just little motes of dust.
 
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It is the most red color ever. Redder than red.

I fell like you may have some personal reservations about admitting mistakes, but let's just call the issue of turquoise being "the reddest red" a point of controversy.
 
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Because, at least how I interpret it, Fanatical Ethoses are just the "goal" for the empire.

Let's compare a Fanati Spiritualist/Militarist and a Fanatic Militarist/Spiritualist empire. The first one wants to proselytisise the galaxy by crusading. The second one wants to simply conquer the galaxy which they see as their divine right, they use their faith the promote their expansionist policies.

The populace cannot share the ultimate vision of an empire, they are just little motes of dust.
So... the options you pick that your race has developed over thousands of years of civilization are merely suggestions.

In the interest of not getting banned, I'm stepping out of this discussion. This is why my 484 logged hours of Stellaris seem to me to be wasted time. Each patch seems to be a scattershot reimagining of different parts of the game in ways that are inconsistent with essentially everything, even itself. Maybe in a year or two, if the game continues to be developed that long, it might be worth checking out. But for now it seems like an extended beta with no actual direction or plan.
 
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Because, at least how I interpret it, Fanatical Ethoses are just the "goal" for the empire.

Let's compare a Fanati Spiritualist/Militarist and a Fanatic Militarist/Spiritualist empire. The first one wants to proselytisise the galaxy by crusading. The second one wants to simply conquer the galaxy which they see as their divine right, they use their faith the promote their expansionist policies.

The populace cannot share the ultimate vision of an empire, they are just little motes of dust.

I'd like to see how it works for 3 Ethos Empires. It means 3 types of POPs from the very beginning. Won't it start to cause problems very fast? And what will happen, f.e., for a Militarist-Xenophile Empire? Some POPs will be always unhappy in each war with Xenos because they will be xenophiles?
 
Except turquoise is more blue than green.

It's literally more green than blue (G224, B204)

@Gamengervi - your move.

lol, this perfectly sums up the human condition since the dawn of time :D

"facts" only matter if you decide for yourself that they matter, same goes for "perception".

the whole debate whether it is a pitchfork or a trident is completly irrelevant. it is obvious what the game think it is and that is all that matters. you have the effects of the ethic and the governments it allows you to choose. everything else should be part of an academic debate somewhere else in this forum or the internet in my opinion.

(edit: i mostly meant the debate about egalitarian and authoritarian :) )
 
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I love this!!!!!
But I'm most interesting in two things now about the descriptions in the faction screenshots:

"Born Equal"
Does this mean that, via policy, we can put a cast system of sorts?

"Domination Traditions"
Is this a little culture system?

It is seen that this new patch will make Stellaris an amazing game!
But I will miss my Sharamir people being F Spiritualist and Pacifist… now I will only be able to have one of the two in the pops… well, changes are that, changes, and they are welcome.
 
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