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HOI4 Dev Diary - Synthetic Dawn

Hi everyone and welcome back to a new dev diary. We are continuing work on the upcoming 1.5 “Cornflakes” and unannounced expansion. Today we are going to be talking about changes to synthetic refineries and resources.

Synthetic Refineries
Synthetic refineries are a great way to get access to oil and rubber for nations that end up on unfriendly terms with a lot of their neighbours (*cough* Germany *cough*). The technologies for them were however in need of some updating. Most people would only bother with the first to unlock the building unless they were a very small nation (and if so probably not a big consumer of those resources). It also felt unfair that nations that had plenty of one resource and lacked the other would need to do the same investment as someone who lacked both. Even if you had some of each, there was no good way of balancing output and you’d usually end up with a surplus of one or a deficiency in the other. To deal with this we now unlock 3 building levels at once, but the initial output of the refinery is much lower. We have then removed the previous 3 techs giving more levels and replaced them with 8 new techs that increase the output of your chosen resource. That means that if you only need more rubber you only need to research the Rubber Processing techs and can skip the Oil Processing.
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Resources & Infrastructure
This is something we have been wanting to do for a long time. Each level of infrastructure now adds +10% resources in those states. This means that we can have resource amounts that actually grow later in the game. This should give you more reasons to upgrade low infrastructure areas to take advantage of the resources there, and will also allow bombing to impact normal resource gathering and not just refineries. A low infrastructure area with resources is now a great opportunity for expansion.

Together with this change we have improved the construction interface.
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You can now see where resources are located and how much they are impacted. You can also see building slots which makes it so much easier to find the best places to build infrastructure without having to jump between map modes.

Resource mapmode now also indicates effect from infrastructure damage so you can spot potentially important areas for repair:
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We have been rebalancing resource numbers across the world to go with this change. Numbers aren't done yet but I figure I’d spend the rest of the diary showing some areas to explain what we are working with.

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British Malaya and Singapore are nerfed, but are both low infra allowing for a lot of expansion.

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USA has a lot of areas where investing in infrastructure will help them grow into a monster. Texan oil for example.

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As seen above, Japan has several opportunities to improve local resources now.

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France generally got a bit of a resource nerf as it had a lot of very high areas and is also at decent infrastructure level.

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Northern Sweden still has precious tungsten which can be expanded to help Germa...accurately simulate Sweden's complicated role in the war.

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Brazil now has the potential to be a true rubber king (is that even a word?) if invested in. Same goes for some other nations in south america, like tungsten from Bolivia.

This should shake up the resource play a bit we hope. See you all next week for more updates!
 
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right now base level is 3 and you get 2 per level. but thats not something we have playtested on yet at all so didnt want to show those numbers ;) expect them to change a bit once we test them
Interesting, depending on the bonuses from tech Refineries may become more of a niche building, rather than being better than trade at max extraction.
 
So if I understand the change correctly refinery base yield have been nerfed but they now produce more resources per technology researched and you can build many more of them (3 base + 2*8 techs = 19).

I assume they work like before which mean their yield will be boosted by infrastructure so it will make more sense to build refineries in high level infra provinces and build factories in low infra provinces as factories productivity is not based on infrastructure.

How have you balance extraction tech with the infrastructure change? It do make a difference is extraction tech work on a local level or a global level. By that I mean either extraction tech is going to be added to infrastructure boost (local) or multiply total amount of resources produced after they are produced (global).

I guess we can expect a refinery to produce something like 12 rubber in 1943, this based on:
1 rubber per tech (4 rubber tech = 4 rubber). 10 infrastructure give +100% boost so 8 rubber and extraction tech multiply it with 1.5 which give a total of 12 rubber.

With limited export you get to keep 75% of your resources so in the above case 9 rubber will be useful for the refinery owner, assuming that law is used.
 
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It makes damage and such harder to show, and its a core design philosophy for HOI that people like to make stuff better rather than less bad. its mostly a vague difference but green numbers going higher is a lot nicer than red numbers becoming smaller ;)

@podcat, I understand the design philosophy you want to stick to, and it has some merits.

But the problem here is much more complex than bonus versus malus. It has a major effect on balance and game mechanisms !

tl;dr : with your method, a region will output at least 40% of it's production even at 0 infra.

I'm pretty sure this won't have much influence on your choice at this point, but let me do the demonstration anyway:

Goal: Region A should output 100 oil when at 100% infrastructure

Method 1 (bonus - PDX method): Every Infra level above 0 increase by 10% the base oil output in Region A

  • Level 0: ~40 oil
  • Level 1: ~44 oil
  • Level 2: ~48 oil
  • ...
  • Level 8: ~82 oil
  • Level 9: ~90 oil
  • Level 10: 100 oil
Method 2 (malus - alternative method): Every Infra level below 10 decrease by 10% the base oil output in Region A

  • Level 0: 0 oil
  • Level 1: 10 oil
  • Level 2: 20 oil
  • ...
  • Level 8: 80 oil
  • Level 9: 90 oil
  • Level 10: 100 oil

One of the major consequence of this choice, is that in method 2, no matter what, Region A will always output at least 40 oil. Even when bombed to hell. In method 2, if infra hit 0, then it won't output anything at all. This is really a different philosophy for low infra region.

But in the end, one way ore another, I'm glad infrastucture level has much more effect now that it had when the game was released ! Keep it up !
 
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This means I have to apologize to Podcat a little bit.

In AOD, synthetic refineries worked like this...

Only a shadow of them.

In AoD the Synthetic refineries:
  • Required resources as input ( with very bad conversion rates for early tech ).
  • Had their output improved by technologies
  • Were possible to control level of output ( if you had overbuilt and needed the input more )
  • Were available separately for oil and rubber ( rares ).
  • Were balanced such that it was almost impossible or really expensive to depend totally on them, not a mandatory strategy for Axis that easilly make you an oil exporter in 1939 like in HoI4.

HoI4 refineries are just oil and rubber factories that you build and then provide free resources forever.

So it looks like HOI4 refineries will now 2 out of 4 of the good ideas from AOD... namely the Output improved by technologies and a separation of the rares and rubber line.

It still sucks that they don't require inputs, but baby steps.

Also, kudos to making resource extraction scale to infra... which was another good idea that was in AOD.
 
Yeah as if strategic bombers weren't OP enough to be banned in most MP games. Good job paradox...
More like they were under powered considering how limited their role is and how under-powered strategic bombing was.
Now I might actually have a reason to make S. Bomders at all instead of just spamming Tac Bombers.
 
More like they were under powered considering how limited their role is and how under-powered strategic bombing was.
Now I might actually have a reason to make S. Bomders at all instead of just spamming Tac Bombers.

No offense, but anyone who played HOI4 long enough in a competent play set wouldn't say this. If you think SB are underpowered, you probably don't know how to play the game yet.

The damage they quickly do to infastructure, factories, causing attrition and supply shortage just makes you lose the war so quickly. They can't be shot down either. They can only be shot down by heavy fighters and even then it happens at a slow pace.

So yeah...
 
One of the major consequence of this choice, is that in method 2, no matter what, Region A will always output at least 40 oil. Even when bombed to hell. In method 2, if infra hit 0, then it won't output anything at all. This is really a different philosophy for low infra region.

But in the end, one way ore another, I'm glad infrastucture level has much more effect now that it had when the game was released ! Keep it up !
Yeah you are of course right. we also didnt really want to completely cut off all resources. Stuff like that tend to lead to wierd exploits vs unsuspecting AI etc
 
So if I understand the change correctly refinery base yield have been nerfed but they now produce more resources per technology researched and you can build many more of them (3 base + 2*8 techs = 19).

I assume they work like before which mean their yield will be boosted by infrastructure so it will make more sense to build refineries in high level infra provinces and build factories in low infra provinces as factories productivity is not based on infrastructure.

How have you balance extraction tech with the infrastructure change? It do make a difference is extraction tech work on a local level or a global level. By that I mean either extraction tech is going to be added to infrastructure boost (local) or multiply total amount of resources produced after they are produced (global).

I guess we can expect a refinery to produce something like 12 rubber in 1943, this based on:
1 rubber per tech (4 rubber tech = 4 rubber). 10 infrastructure give +100% boost so 8 rubber and extraction tech multiply it with 1.5 which give a total of 12 rubber.

With limited export you get to keep 75% of your resources so in the above case 9 rubber will be useful for the refinery owner, assuming that law is used.

I believe that both of your assumptions are wrong.

As I undertstood it, it will be like that:
1) You start with three possible rubber/oil plants, because the new techs do not neccessarily increase the maximum number of them, but they increase the output per refinery.

2) I also think that the ressource output of these factories is not determined by infrastructure, but by the level of the rubber/oil plant. infrastructer only increase the output of natural ressources.

This way it make sense for me, but I might be wrong.

So maybe @podcat could elaborate this further?
 
Method 1 (bonus - PDX method): Every Infra level above 0 increase by 10% the base oil output in Region A

  • Level 0: ~40 oil
  • Level 1: ~44 oil
  • Level 2: ~48 oil
  • ...
  • Level 8: ~82 oil
  • Level 9: ~90 oil
  • Level 10: 100 oil

Wouldn't it be more like 50, 55, ... , 90, 95, 100? Unless I am missing something, don't they normally add the percentage bonus rather than multiply?
 
@podcat - great change love it - finally made me sign up to forums and post rather than be a lurker

Question - Is there any chance of say ministers that increase resource production? say have an oil minister that increases by 2% etc
 
Wouldn't it be more like 50, 55, ... , 90, 95, 100? Unless I am missing something, don't they normally add the percentage bonus rather than multiply?
40% was the lowest (multiply). If the add them, then the lowest is 50% as you said. I use the "worst" in my demo, as I was unsure how they will do it. 40% and moreso 50% output for a 0 infra region is too much in my book.
 
Awesome changes!

This coupled with the bonus to construction speed from infrastructure I think may really change up people's early game build priorities. I already like starting off building some infrastructure in my states with a lot of empty building slots when I start with civilian economy law, but this may change that calculus a bit adding more weight to high resource states.

Also, while I think splitting oil and rubber entirely would have made sense, this works fine too, as it's essentially the same thing except you can save building slots.
 
@podcat will there be changes to trade laws and particularly how trade works among faction members? No point in getting excited that Germany is buffing their steel when they suddenly go closed economy and Italy is left crying over its production lines.
 
Do we get a button to pritorisise repair of infrastructue and the diffrent factories, forts etc. It is a pain in the ass to sort this out.. and nice changes.
That would be a VERY useful feature, civilian factories and infrastructure if you're playing the long game. Or military factories and forts if you need immediate results.
 
Another question wouldn't it make sense that you also have to upgrade the level of infrastructure to say level 5 to have 5 factories 6 to have 6 and so on - this would at the very least slow down places such as european colonies that would never in the real world be able to match the levels of development and production in places like Western-Europe?