EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of September 2017

[Fishman786]

they are islamic branches which give a bonus to islamic states. why dont you look first page?

Spoiler

Ideally this chart should have "Salafi" or "Wahhabi" marked on either as an isolated Sunni box or in a section on its own, and Barelvi and Deobandi shouldn't be included since they're basically entirely confined to the Hanafi school (especially Barelvis, Dawat-e-Islami for instance produce all their missionary material oriented around Hanafi fiqh only).

 

[Santos Valorion]

they are islamic branches which give a bonus to islamic states. why dont you look first page?

Spoiler

I maybe wrong, but what i get from this graph is that ibadi is a school under khawarij? So shouldn't khawarij be a religion and have ibadi as a school?

 

[Koskenbleu]

I maybe wrong, but what i get from this graph is that ibadi is a school under khawarij? So shouldn't khawarij be a religion and have ibadi as a school?

khawarij is not a religion, it originated as a group of muslims that broke out of the supporters of 'Ali (the early shi'i -political movement).

EDIT: Just realized what you probably meant. To have Khawarij, instead of Ibadi, as a separate "religion" ingame.
Still, I think khawarij is a rather derogatory term nowadays. I'm sure Ibadis would prefer to be called Ibadis

 

[Santos Valorion]

khawarij is not a religion, it originated as a group of muslims that broke out of the supporters of 'Ali (the early shi'i -political movement).

EDIT: Just realized what you probably meant. To have Khawarij, instead of Ibadi, as a separate "religion" ingame.
Still, I think khawarij is a rather derogatory term nowadays. I'm sure Ibadis would prefer to be called Ibadis

Ok so i went to wiki, and their they stated the 3 main sects of islam are sunni(in game), shia(in game) and khawarij(not in game). Under the main khawarji sect is the ibadi sect(which is in game as a religion) but now with the school mechanic in game this really starts to mess things up, as sunni have there schools to chose from, shia have there sects to chose from, but then the ibadi (a sect under khawarij), can now pick the school and sects of the sunni and shia main sects. So now the game is miss representing the ibadi sect completely.

 

[Koskenbleu]

Ok so i went to wiki, and their they stated the 3 main sects of islam are sunni(in game), shia(in game) and khawarij(not in game). Under the main khawarji sect is the ibadi sect(which is in game as a religion) but now with the school mechanic in game this really starts to mess things up, as sunni have there schools to chose from, shia have there sects to chose from, but then the ibadi (a sect under khawarij), can now pick the school and sects of the sunni and shia main sects. So now the game is miss representing the ibadi sect completely.

I don't know about the sources of wiki-pages, but it would feel weird to call khawarij a separate sect. During the times when khawarij parted from 'Ali's supporters, Islam was largely still forming in its theory and practice. The term khawarij only refers to the group leaving, and opposing both Muawiya's Umayyads, and the Alids. It's not like there was an intact, concise theological framework for something called khawarij (let alone for such thing as "sunnism"/ahl al-hadiith).
A quick glance into Valerie Hoffman's "The Essentials of Ibadi Islam" (2004, Syracuse University press.), describes the tendency of this sect to refer to, and read, both sunni and shia theological works of different schools. Also is mentioned the somewhat negative feelings towards the term khawarij, although it is recognized as the origin of the sect.

This would speak on behalf of giving the Ibadi the opportunity to choose from other schools. Also it is obvious that the Ibadi in eu4 are to represent the actual Ibadi (Oman etc.), not khawarij tendencies as a whole.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Also, I really hate to complain about you giving love to Islam like some right-wing preacher, but can Paradox, can you please stop making Islam so ridiculously overpowered. Among all the massive bonuses to technology, tolerance, tax, manpower, morale and so on, you've decided to add even more bonuses. Meanwhile leaving all the other world religions (which you apparently think should just convert to Islam) are just being left in the dust in terms of actual mechanics and strength.

Honestly, I think it's weird that Islam has more tech cost bonus than Christian religions in a game that is about Europe surpassing the Islamic world, India and China in technological progress among other things. Now this might just be a game balance thing, to lessen the inherent disadvantages of the institution spread (or in earlier game versions westernisation)

However, I do not see a specific bias towards Islam in this update, what you are seeing is just the general power creep that happens with everything that is being updated (like Ming, Russia, Orthodoxy)

Literally, schools of Islam are basicly icons of Orthodoxy in game terms. So both got a similiar power creep in recent updates. Catholicism needs a revamp desperatly though, as does Western Europe in general, but that's for another topic

 

[Santos Valorion]

The missionary conversion strenght should be down to 2%, and the tech cost reduction should be changed to something less over powered. Coptic is still the best religion even without these changes.

 

[makaramus]

That dress icon makes me play Muslim countries no more. Change it please..

ok I am an ex-muslim... I am not even anymore and just ago somehow you managed to TRIGGER ME A LOT O_O How did you do that explain pls

“Come, come, whoever you are. Wanderer, worshiper, lover of leaving. It doesn't matter. Ours is not a caravan of despair. come, even if you have broken your vows a thousand times. Come, yet again , come , come.”
-Rumi

this is the person you humilated... and do you know he gonna say to you? he will still call you next to him.

he was a person that belived true tolerant actions! Thats why he must be (or someone that acting with his words in his name) at negative piety since negative piety means tolerant muslim country

 

[grandadmiralbob]

I'll ask again, what were the schools of Islam and what was their significance? And I'm not talking about in-game, but in history.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The missionary conversion strenght should be down to 2%, and the tech cost reduction should be changed to something less over powered. Coptic is still the best religion even without these changes.

Just to be clear: those bonuses from piety have been in game since release.
What's new with the dlc would be the school bonuses and the piety actions on the far ends.

 

[wingren013]

I'll ask again, what were the schools of Islam and what was their significance? And I'm not talking about in-game, but in history.

All branches of Islam agree that the Quran is the chief holy book, in addition Sunnis and Shiites disagree on who the legitimate caliph is.

The Shiite schools are basically three different groups that believed in three seperate successors to the Shiite Imam. There are some theological differences and significant differences in interpretation of islamic law, but the origin and main dispute between them is what line is the legitimate Imam.

The Sunni schools represent different interpretations of Fiqh which is basically interpreting Sharia as layed out in the Quran (the Quran serves as a legal document as well as being a holy book, and while Sharia is considered divine law there are different interpretations of what it means and how it applies in certain situations) they are distinct from each other but all recognised as Sunni Islam as they all believe Abu Bakr was the heir of Muhammad and some other less important theological stuff that differentiates them from Shia.

There is some other stuff to it but that is the basics.


Also if you've played CK2 these are a different thing from the Asharite and Mutazilla schools presented there. Those are philosophical schools. These ones are all about law, which is my guess as to why you can't freely change them in game.

 

[JKiller96]

Ideally this chart should have "Salafi" or "Wahhabi" marked on either as an isolated Sunni box or in a section on its own, and Barelvi and Deobandi shouldn't be included since they're basically entirely confined to the Hanafi school (especially Barelvis, Dawat-e-Islami for instance produce all their missionary material oriented around Hanafi fiqh only).

Salafists and Wahhabis usually adhere to the Hanbali maddhab

 

[grandadmiralbob]

All branches of Islam agree that the Quran is the chief holy book, in addition Sunnis and Shiites disagree on who the legitimate caliph is.

The Shiite schools are basically three different groups that believed in three seperate successors to the Shiite Imam. There are some theological differences and significant differences in interpretation of islamic law, but the origin and main dispute between them is what line is the legitimate Imam.

The Sunni schools represent different interpretations of Fiqh which is basically interpreting Sharia as layed out in the Quran (the Quran serves as a legal document as well as being a holy book, and while Sharia is considered divine law there are different interpretations of what it means and how it applies in certain situations) they are distinct from each other but all recognised as Sunni Islam as they all believe Abu Bakr was the heir of Muhammad and some other less important theological stuff that differentiates them from Shia.

There is some other stuff to it but that is the basics.


Also if you've played CK2 these are a different thing from the Asharite and Mutazilla schools presented there. Those are philosophical schools. These ones are all about law, which is my guess as to why you can't freely change them in game.

Thank you.

 

[Fishman786]

Salafists and Wahhabis usually adhere to the Hanbali maddhab

In Arabia yeah but I'm not sure about the ones from other communities. Generally though Salafis tend to reject the importance of adhering to a specific Madhab.

 

[Trin Tragula]

In the era EU depicts at least Wahhabism is more or less sprung from the Hanbali school. I wouldn't presume to be very knowledgeable on the various moments today.
Wahhabism is very late game though so there's not a lot of flavor tied to it (it's not considered it's own school by the game for instance)

 

[Santos Valorion]

Just to be clear: those bonuses from piety have been in game since release.
What's new with the dlc would be the school bonuses and the piety actions on the far ends.

Oh i know ive been playing the game for 2 years, just with all the new stuff these old bonuses seem very overpower, no religion can stack a 15% tech reduction, or even get 3% missonary strenght(orthdox could but you changed it in third rome to balence with the new stuff(if im correct)),15% morale as shia and 10% shock damage or reduction. Just look at all the bonuses you can now stack. So all im saying is to balance the old bonuses with the new stuff.

 

[Koskenbleu]

I don't believe wahhabism is generally percieved as a school in Islam. The current schools are quite "set in stone", I believe, and at least the generally/"officially" accepted schools of Islam have been declared in 2004 (at least) in the Amman Message, which involves (taken from the wiki-page, I'm tired ):

"The recognition of eight legal schools of sharia/fiqh (madhāhib) and the varying schools of Islamic theology:

Sunni Hanafi
Sunni Maliki
Sunni Shafi'i
Sunni Hanbali
Shia Jaʿfari
Shia Zaydi
Ẓāhirī
Ibadi"

Wahhabism indeed, is a doctrine, heavily drawing from the Hanbali writings of Ibn Taimiyya, but not necessarily it's own legal school. As I understand it, wahhabism seeks a stern approach towards monotheism, tawhid, and against* all kinds of "idolatry". The actual legal rulings probably draw more heavily on set hanbali -principles.

*edited

 

[BritNavFan]

Overall, it looks like really nice work. Congratulations . I'm looking forward to modding it so I can play East Rome playing it.

I really wish the CKII devs would take your idea about both positive and negative piety being good things and apply it to the "decadence" mechanic in that game. A "decadent" ruler, in the medieval Muslim sense, might be a great patron of artists and scholars, and skilled at creating an environment conducive to trade - bonuses to technology and revenue - he'd just be at a loss when the next wave of hard-as-nails invaders from the desert sweep in.

I agree with some others that the "piety actions on the far ends" seem very overpowered and I hope they don't make it into the release.

I think it would make more sense for Legalism and Mysticism to be separate tracks. But it's probably a bit late in the development cycle for that.

 

[MateuszNH]

I think price of trade goods should be different in sundry trade center(and dynamic using trade route mechanics with export and import instead of today "one direction nodes" if possible), for example tea shouldn't be very expensive in china countries, but very exotic and good paid in Europe, same with indian spices getting very expensive after blocking Red and Mediterranean sea by Ottomans. But it may be hard to make properly (but this is one of worst game points, not sure if even half players know how to play trade right in this game) but it may be hard to implement, but there is something easier. Battle mechanic need some work especially more player influence to battle at the moment (but that's hard too because it needs to throw out existing combat width) or maybe some changeable formations based of manuever(which is least of all pips) instead of just new numbers of bonuses from drilling etc.
But u are doing very good job with religions, nice.

 

[JRMurphy]

I think price of trade goods should be different in sundry trade center(and dynamic using trade route mechanics with export and import instead of today "one direction nodes" if possible), for example tea shouldn't be very expensive in china countries, but very exotic and good paid in Europe, same with indian spices getting very expensive after blocking Red and Mediterranean sea by Ottomans. But it may be hard to make properly (but this is one of worst game points, not sure if even half players know how to play trade right in this game) but it may be hard to implement, but there is something easier.

I like this. Does sound hard to implement but would add a more realistic vibe that is needed.
And as you conquer these exotic goods provinces, prices could lower. Maybe each nation could have its own price for goods and not just have that universal price list. And everyone gets affected by the events that drop and rise prices (like the beaver depletion, great bank fisheries, etc).
About the trade nodes direction; I personally think could be removed (maybe not removed, perhaps each nation produces its own directions from where they trade) and switched to the way other games have it. Like Anno 1404; the more goods you bring to your citizens, the more they pay and your income increases. And would be fun to have them demanding food/cloth, you know, the essentials. Citizen class could be implemented as well (peasant and aristocratic governments.)