Hello again folks!

It's a new month and high time for another development diary. This time, let's talk about barons. In the original Crusader Kings, characters could only hold titles of three ranks; count, duke and king (though these could be called different things in different cultures). Barons existed indirectly in the form of provincial nobility, which, together with the clergy, peasants and burghers, had different power, loyalty and tax values. The player could fiddle around with the power values of the four classes, which would affect the tax rate and the composition of the provincial levy. As it turned out, this was one of the least successful features in the game, because the micromanagement was tedious and did not have enough impact to make it worthwhile. Therefore, in Crusader Kings II, the whole thing has been cut. Instead, each province will have between one and eight named settlements. A settlement is either a castle, city or church, and characters can hold the title to a settlement just like they can to counties and duchies.

Castles are regular feudal holdings, whose barons are normally in fief to the provincial count. Cities are commercial hubs governed by a mayor. Finally, church settlements are run by a Bishop (or Mufti, or similiar.) Like the four classes of Crusader Kings, the three types of settlement provide different types of troop levies and have different tax rates depending on laws. Unlike the class power of Crusader Kings, the rights of churches and cities - and the investiture of their leaders - should be interesting to play around with. (More on this in a later dev diary.)

Barony tier characters are not playable, mainly for performance reasons. (We do not want barons to have courts of their own, with the explosion of characters this would require.) They have a more rudimentary form of AI than playable characters, but will respond to diplomacy and might raise their army in revolt. Another measure to keep the character count down in Crusader Kings II is that you can have your vassals double as councillors (so there is less need for minor nobles to be created by the game).

What about the level of micromanagement - won't all these baronies require more player attention? Well, the whole point of the feudal system is delegation, so the short answer is that for dukes and above; not much. Granted, the dynamic around cities and churches will require more attention, but of the right kind and infrequently. The existence of baronies will also make playing counts a lot more interesting.

I don't have any baronial graphics in particular to show you, but here's a little something that Aerie is working on...




That's all for now. Don't miss the next dev diary on December 2!


Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[Doomdark]

Question: Do cities, castles, etc. stand for one attribute (e.g. cities for revenue by trade) or can they contain a set of attributes (e.g. revenue, defense)?

They can have many, though the main ones are Tax, Defense and Levy Size.

 

[Maldenic]

One question that lingers for me in regards to non-barony settlements. Who owns them? As in, who is the bishop, or burgomaster, or whatever subservient to. Presumably they must not be completely independent, or there would be no point to them (unless they acted as a form of opposition or obstacle to the player). I'd assume that at the very least cities provide some tax and levies to some noble.

The obvious answer is the Count, and perhaps I look silly for even asking this question. But that means that the most efficient use of your demesne is to hold just capital baronies so as to maximise the number of cities, churches, and baronies under your control. Though I guess that is counterbalanced by decreasing your power/hold over the province. Perhaps that leads to another layer of strategy?

 

[Doomdark]

One question that lingers for me in regards to non-barony settlements. Who owns them? As in, who is the bishop, or burgomaster, or whatever subservient to. Presumably they must not be completely independent, or there would be no point to them (unless they acted as a form of opposition or obstacle to the player). I'd assume that at the very least cities provide some tax and levies to some noble.

The obvious answer is the Count, and perhaps I look silly for even asking this question. But that means that the most efficient use of your demesne is to hold just capital baronies so as to maximise the number of cities, churches, and baronies under your control. Though I guess that is counterbalanced by decreasing your power/hold over the province. Perhaps that leads to another layer of strategy?

They are titles just like castle/feudal baronies. They just have a different form of succession (which I will not go into now, as I mentioned in the DD.)

 

[Doomdark]

I love the feature.

I also like that a settlement is the new province for desmene-limit purposes. In my current game of CK my crappy King was able to have half of Ireland in his personal desmene, which is incredibly stupid. In other words with this idea Doomdark gets rid of a major argument for quadrupling the province-count.

It also seems like this idea will reduce the problem of the AI revoking Count-titles to give land to it's sons. Now it can create a settlement to do the same things. This leaves me with two questions:

1) Will Barons have their own Coats of Arms?

2) Will Barons be able to marry? If so who will propose the marriages, the Baron himself or his Count?

3) We know that it will be possible to be a Count in two Countries. Will it be possible to be a Baron in two countries?

Nick

1) Yes
2) Yes, other characters can offer them marriage, but they might also marry a local girl after a few years.
3) Define country

 

[the_hdk]

1) Yes
2) Yes, other characters can offer them marriage, but they might also marry a local girl after a few years.
3) Define country

I think he meant to ask if it's possible to be a BAron in County A and B.

For instance being a Baron in province of Holland and Gerle

 

[Doomdark]

I think he meant to ask if it's possible to be a BAron in County A and B.

For instance being a Baron in province of Holland and Gerle

In that case, yes, it is quite possible.

 

[sortulv]

3) Define country

How about:
a) can a baron hold a barony in two counties under the same liege?
b) can a baron hold a barony in two counties with different lieges?
c) if yes to b, does he swear aligiance to both, or just one?

 

[Doomdark]

How about:
a) can a baron hold a barony in two counties under the same liege?
b) can a baron hold a barony in two counties with different lieges?
c) if yes to b, does he swear aligiance to both, or just one?

a) yes
b) yes
c) Just one. A character only ever has one liege.

 

[sortulv]

c) Just one. A character only ever has one liege.

So that hasn't changed then... Guess that was abit much to hope for...
But, apart from that - GREAT UPDATE

 

[Hastu Neon]

Wow, 7 pages of posts in just 1 day! that's a good audience, at least...

 

[ssj18vegeta]

Thanks for the dev diary!

Looking forward to playing the game and seeing how baronies will work out.

 

[TempestDK]

If Counties are the smallest unit represented on the map, then how do you get an easy overview of who controls what in the different counties??

In extreme cases I guess you could have 8 different counts holding land in the same county, but on the map it will most likely just be the domain of the one that holds the province capital??

I think after a few centuries, the "baronies map" (if one will exist) will be a huge patch work as counts get holdings all over the place.

 

[Doomdark]

In what group will croatia be in?eastern or western.Will there be a ban title(Croatian title similar to duke,bans of slavonia,bosnia etc.)

There are no technology groups like in EU3, if that is what you mean. As for the Ban title, perhaps that is what Croatian dukes will be called.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

If Counties are the smallest unit represented on the map, then how do you get an easy overview of who controls what in the different counties??

In extreme cases I guess you could have 8 different counts holding land in the same county, but on the map it will most likely just be the domain of the one that holds the province capital??

I think after a few centuries, the "baronies map" (if one will exist) will be a huge patch work as counts get holdings all over the place.

Several options come to mind:

• The map could show county ownership by the placement of CoAs, as in CK1, and if you click on any county ("diplo mode view") it could show you where this count has his possessions. I.e. his own country would stand out colored in bright green, other counties would stand out in dark green (=showing that there are baronies held by the selected count), the counties of the selected count's liege would be shown e.g. in blue, his current enemies in red, and hatched green color would show counties in which the selected count has a claim to any title.
• A county could be graphically subdivided into barony territories. But you would only see these subdivisions if you switched to a "barony view". This map view would of course be a very messy view, and it would be quite some effort to create the territorial subdivisions on the mapfiles. (i.e. divide the county of Cologne into (1) the bishopric of cologne; (2) the abbey of Cornelimünster; (3) the city of cologne (not the same as the bishopric!) (4) the city of Aachen; (5) the castle of Jülich; (6) the castle of Berg; (7) castle of Ravensberg; (8) the castle of Zülpich) ... a gigantic amount of detail work even if you just use arbitrary, generic subdivisions for the lesser known counties.
• Don't color anything on the diplo map, but place distinct icons on the map to show where a character owns a barony. I.e. when a character is selected, one province could have four little "barony" icons, another province 2 barony icons, another province one icon and then some other provinces would also have icons to show that he has claims on specific baronies there.

 

[Balesir]

As soon as a bishop rule a land, he is a prince-bishop.
Simple bishops do not rule settlements. They just administrate clergymen of their bishopric.

While this is strictly true, Dioceseian Bishops did have a considerable independent income and de-facto independence under the Church hierarchy rather than the secular one. Representing the Diocesian Bishop as a "settlement" (the cathedral town, I guess) seems a reasonable game artefact. For monestaries, I would suggest simply making the first church settlement in each county the "Diocesian Bishop" and each additional church settlement an "Abbot".

Question to Doomdark (if you're still reading) - will church "barons" take any specific actions based on instructions from the church hierarchy/the Pope?

 

[gigau]

Dear Doomdark, it was stated (in the questions and answers above) that having settlements in another county will allow to claim a title.

- Did i understand correctly ?

- How will one get the loyalty of a baron/bishop/burgmeister from a province one doesn't own ?

 

[TempestDK]

Dear Doomdark, it was stated (in the questions and answers above) that having settlements in another county will allow to claim a title.

- Did i understand correctly ?

- How will one get the loyalty of a baron/bishop/burgmeister from a province one doesn't own ?

I think he might mean that you can usurp a title if holding 2/3 of the settlements. That would make more sense to me at least

 

[The Kingmaker]

As for the Ban title, perhaps that is what Croatian dukes will be called.

Are you really going to use some regional equivalent titles (e.g. ban, voivode, kniaz, mormaer, earl, jarl, etc.)? Because I would really, really love that.

 

[Woody Man]

Are you really going to use some regional equivalent titles (e.g. ban, voivode, kniaz, mormaer, earl, jarl, etc.)? Because I would really, really love that.

As would I

 

[unmerged(82381)]

Well, you can't go above 8, but you can script in any number below 8 as the maximum, per province.

So modders are permanently limited to 8 settlements per province. Good to have that offical now, bit disappointing, but good too know. Thanks.