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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
He is. Rather, he's a rival for sinful characters. He's a Breton Catholic with all the virtues.

He already is! If you're seen as a bad guy (sins, lunatic, cannibal, that kind of stuff) Arthur can be your Immortal Rival
That's pretty cool! You've just gotta love all those little Easter Eggs that get put into the game.

I wonder what we'll be getting with Holy Fury.
 
Shouldn't maybe new Dalmatian culture be included alongside Greek and Italian? Would be a fun campaign to restore Hellenic Rome as them.

It's probably because Greek is the main culture of Byzantium and Italian is the most direct and closest descendant of proper Latin in the homeland of the Romans. Dalmatians are either Latinized Illyrians or Latinized Greeks depending who you believe on where the cities actually came from, and though are the closest relatives of the Italians they kinda have their own shtick going on.

I wouldn't protest adding them to the group, but I can see why they might choose to limit it.
 
You can only dedicate a temple once. When the character modifier received from that action runs out, you need to dedicate another temple in order to regain it (or gain another one, if you dedicate the next temple to a different god).
The bonus on the temple itself on the other hand is permanent.
Oh, now I see that I just missed to second half of the paragraph talking about that feature, my bad.
Yeah it's much clearer now. And I like it!

However
any temple holding within your realm
Is it only the temples you personally hold, the temples in your own provinces, or any temple in the whole Empire?
 
The terrorists have won...
 
Would be nice to have Olympic Games, but it's very understandable if they can't be added. After all, everything from this DD is already far more than I could ever have hoped for Hellenics.
But I can see a mod for the Games as soon as Holy Fury gets released.
Also, a mod for a whole bunch of ancient artifacts, maybe even College of Pontiffs.
Pardon my over-excitement. :D
 
Is it only the temples you personally hold, the temples in your own provinces, or any temple in the whole Empire?
Any temple under your ruler that is owned by an hellenic theocracy.
 
Would be nice to have Olympic Games, but it's very understandable if they can't be added. After all, everything from this DD is already far more than I could ever have hoped for Hellenics.
But I can see a mod for the Games as soon as Holy Fury gets released.
Also, a mod for a whole bunch of ancient artifacts, maybe even College of Pontiffs.
Pardon my over-excitement. :D

Pardon denied. May you be sewn up alive in the belly of a dead camel, we are placing you in the oubliette.
 
You can only dedicate a temple once. When the character modifier received from that action runs out, you need to dedicate another temple in order to regain it (or gain another one, if you dedicate the next temple to a different god).
The bonus on the temple itself on the other hand is permanent.
Are there any supernatural events, if you dedicate only to one god, all of them, or if you do all 11, but you are spiting 1 of them?
 
So Hellenists get so much new clothing, but our dear Cardinals in Rome still wears their bishop gear? That's not quite right.
To be fair, for most of the game's time they would not wear anything different than that - the privilege to wear red was bestowed by pope Innocent IV in 1245 (First Council of Lyon).
 
Hellenic paganism was effectively a dead religion by the time CK2 begins (the last spots were being rooted out).

Not that I mind Hellenism getting a second chance (I love it), but yeah.
Thank you.....That much is obvious, I just don't get how it would break immersion. But then again I always play as early as possible to redraw the map of Europe vs. history in this game.
 
It's most likely an abstraction based on the fact that Romans did not have a very strong local mythology. Not to say they didn't have their own religion, they did, and it had a ton of Etruscan admixture and everything, but in terms of myths and legends the Romans pretty much shared all the same with the Greeks. It is said that what the Greeks had in myth, Romans had in ritual.

And so, it's a collection of Greek myth and Roman ritual into a singular umbrella. Apparently, if you reform as a Greek, you get Greek names for deities. Have fun with that.

It's a little reductive, Romans had proper myths but it has now faded because of the historical reconstruction in the Renaissance Era. Plus, Greeks author had a strong tradition of taking foreign myth and grant them Greek names, because everything non-Greek is just corrupted greek knowledge. Romans, for their part, adopted many foreign cults for political motives (and as a war tool), thus incorporating greek elements which they didn't have at all.

At this rate, every single culture in Mediterrannée share the same pantheon.

Like for "African" I would consider "Hellenic" to be a catch-all term rather than specifically referring to one of the many Greek and Roman versions, especially considering that the religion is being revived by a former-Christian and reformed to the player's liking.
That's fair, I think. Would be interesting to have a heresy focused on the "true roman pantheon", which is not the greek one.:p
 
Well then..

Paradox is really developing ck2 into a fantasy game. So sad.

Reinstalling hellenism in the middle ages is simply ridiculous.

The idea was dead right after the death of Julian the apostate

Wrong you can turn it off, learn to bloody read.

Also it's no more ridiculous then many of the other things already in the game, some of them from launch back in 2012.

It didn't really die with Julian the Philosopher either, while none of the others had much success there were several attempt by Senators in the Western Empire to undo Theodosius intolerance and if not defeat Christianity at least make it forced to tolerate the Pagans. The Eastern Empire also had the Platonic Academy in Athens open well into the reign of Justinian not to mention there were a couple of would be Emperor candidates who attempted to revolt and failed in the 400's that were Pagan eg during the reign of Zeno.
 
After reforming, whichever of roman/greek you didnt pick should become a heresy, and they should be tolerant of each other.

Edit: also, there should be a colloseum execution method.
 
Because Myrmidons are the Holy Order.
A holy order?!!!


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You can only dedicate a temple once. When the character modifier received from that action runs out, you need to dedicate another temple in order to regain it (or gain another one, if you dedicate the next temple to a different god).
The bonus on the temple itself on the other hand is permanent.

One more thing. Will we also be able to dedicate a temple to respected friends/family members - similar to the way runestones work for Norse worshippers in-game? I remember accounts of how particularly wealthy/powerful Romans would build and dedicate shrines in such a fashion. Like anything between a simple humble sanctuary, like the one Cicero built in dedication to his deceased daughter Tullia; or towards a more grand design such as the Temple of Divine Caesar built by Augustus to deify his adopted father Gaius.