Werewolf CCLVIII: Cascadian Revolt

[Wagonlitz]

my conversation with Panzer was indeed true, besides censoring my trait,

You had told Panzer you had a gun?

We started with 22 players 25% being 5.5 and I rounded up because I didn't want it to feel like a "big" lite with a pack of 4 and a sorcerer, or 5 pack without a sorcerer. It sort of felt like a "big" lite, from my perspective unsure if you all felt the same.

Overall then I think this was really balanced. I do think there was a starting baddie too much, though. Going higher than iohhos rule of thumb generally is I'll advised. Without some early luck and also some wolves being basically zombie's, then the wolves being over 25% could have hit hard. Having an extra mate for voting really can't be underestimated in value. You did some compensation for it, but I don't think a protector really makes up for it. Especially not with the sorc being able to scan both wolves and cultists. Makes it almost certain they'll hook up, unless they are unlucky and die early.

Anyway, don't think it's too big an imbalance given all, and the game overall was pretty balanced, I think.
Definitely a good, first job. And way better than most people's first big.

Personally I consider it bad to have the assassin variant that reveals the name. That really gimps the trait and if given to baddies makes it almost worthless. And even in the hands of goodies it can be bad. We have multiple times seen a goodie deciding to take a shot, hit a goodie, and then be strung up as an obvious baddie... Hence I'd much advice to only use the variant that doesn't reveal names.

That gave the village ~82% (full roster) and ~71% projected after the night 0 hunt that didn't happen anyways.

What are those percentages?

the fact so many manage to focus on Randy so quickly kind of surprised me.

As I also posted in the JL chat, then it's both down to how he votes, but also how he acted. For me it very much was behavioral. Same with how I pinged aedan.
Randy seemed way more distant and also the way he fully cleared Caillean didn't fit goodie Randy. He was making substance no substance posts. Think non denial denials.

Also, voting mates twice isn't a problem, so that part wasn't bad. The bad part is the way it was done here, where it looked dangerous, but wasn't, and also due to all the block voting.
Had the wolves not block voted as much as they did, he might easier have been able to hide.

But yeah, he made seemingly dangerous votes on baddies that actually were very safe votes. And also set himself up for potentially saving aedan in a way that couldn't be questioned. Albeit, given that day didn't conclude we can't know if he'd have done it.

I’m still shocked Euro wasn’t claimed.

Always scanning scan magnets early leads to them having less fun. So in some cases you should decide against the early, "good" scans for the sake of the game.

 

[randakar]

Damn, should have hunted Dedonus instead of maw last night

 

[Wagonlitz]

Damn, should have hunted Dedonus instead of maw last night

You should.
Especially if Agatha has known you're only a ghost at deadline ifnyou hung, as then she'd have forwarded to Maw that Sleepy was protected on night 2 and hence was impossible to have been turned.
Agatha and I were quite annoyed in JL chat as ghosts tk see Sleepy run up, as we expected him to be a villager as we didn't expect there to have been another starting baddie.

If Maw too thought only a curse remained, did you @MAWofdoom , then Sleepy would have been cleared...

 

[MAWofdoom]

If Maw too thought only a curse remained, did you @MAWofdoom , then Sleepy would have been cleared...

Honestly no, I was kind of operating under the assumption that there were two baddies left, and I'm not entirely sure why. I think I get a bit kill-happy when put into slight positions of power. Also dedonus mentioned that he thought there was another starting baddie due to the assassin, which made sense to me given that Jackson had marksman and dedonus was also claiming marksman.
It would still have made a difference I think though. With sleepy being the 2nd yakman voter, I was kind of expecting him to be a baddie, but not a starting baddie. Knowing he wasn't turned mighty've been just enough to make me trust him over arky's doctor claim.

 

[randakar]

About the setup, I believe two protectors is too much regardless of game size. Too easy to protect the JL spokesperson that way.

For that same reason I would not give both of them a hunt protection trait, either. One OeO is quite enough. And even that should probably be a Vengeful trait instead, which is much better because it doesn't automatically give the village a wolf.

As for game balance - 1/4, 1/3, 5/12 (rounded down) is the proportions I am using for 1,.2, and 3 packs respectively nowadays. Deviating from that is ill adviced. Votes matter a lot, but also the fact that if more than 5/12th of the players is evil the capacity for them to make the lynch do chaotic stuff dramatically increases.

 

[randakar]

Perhaps I should host a game again some time. When I'm back from vacation. One of the reasons I didn't say much was simply because of the vacation making my schedule unpredictable.

Might as well introduce some new stuff from the Discord server as well. Should be fun.

 

[Wagonlitz]

believe two protectors is too much regardless of game size. Too easy to protect the JL spokesperson that way.

It was to the high side, but so was the amount kf starting baddies plus there were two curses too, one of them having a gun. So I think it overall evened out. The extra baddies needs to be countered.

One OeO is quite enough. And even that should probably be a Vengeful trait instead, which is much better because it doesn't automatically give the village a wolf.

Vengeful, like brutal, is useless for goodies. As a goodie you should never set it unless there's a known baddie, as you're likely to cause harm. OEO IS the good one to give goodies. On the other hand baddies shouldn't ever have OEO.

I will agree that OEO and blessed is a bit much. Albeit, 27% starting baddies and 2 curses.

Might as well introduce some new stuff from the Discord server as well. Should be fun.

Oh. I'm curious.

Is the Discord games going well?
Much less analysis? Seemed so given you said it was nice to have everything analysed again.

 

[Witch Agatha]

Firstly, thank you @Culann ! I had a lot of fun, it was nice to be back for this game.
I messed up at the beginning of the game, should've cleared a player from the beginning, but I have been away for too long and my mind didn't come to that conclusion.
I thought of clearing MAW after I seerish scanned him, but I really thought there wasn't another cultist or sorc, only wolf, and figured he might as well be cleared, which is why I contacted him as well.
It was a really fun game, I had forgotten how much fun it was! But I definitely could've played better and created a JL from early on...
Thank you Wagon and MAW for your help, even though it was on my last day, I have A LOT to learn.

Great game guys!

 

[Arkasas]

Well, it's always nice to win. I wouldn't have guessed randy was the last wolf, actually, but Dedonus made the case so well.

I think it'd be best if someone started a new game Soon™. A large part of the inactivity, I think, is that we've gotten out of the habit of playing Werewolf, and if we want the game to be more active we need to play more.

 

[Yakman]

fun while it lasted

 

[Yakman]

Pretty well played game on by both the village and the wolves. Wolves got rather unlucky with the day 1 mess, but some very good analysis on the village's part (special credit to wagon, dedonus, and MAW) turned the tide in the village's favor.

Wish I could have stayed for the full game, but circumstances intervened. Thanks for hosting a great game, culann!

i did kill the seer w/ my brutal

 

[randakar]

It was to the high side, but so was the amount kf starting baddies plus there were two curses too, one of them having a gun. So I think it overall evened out. The extra baddies needs to be countered.

I don't like curses. Side switching is something I banished from my games.

As for baddies having a lot of firepower this game - I think most of the time they are underpowered in that regard actually, so for my games this would be reasonable.
Though not the amount of baddies, of course.

Oh. I'm curious.

Is the Discord games going well?
Much less analysis? Seemed so given you said it was nice to have everything analysed again.

It's.. different. A collection of mostly women who aren't overall into complex games as much means a lot less analysis and a lot more imperfect play from the village. Last game someone was making a claim in public that should all but clear him, and instead some people started pushing to lynch that person because it gave someone *guaranteed* to be a goodie more voting power. Silly.
That kind of thing. Lots of eye rolling from my side, at the very least.

It's been a success in the sense that it's a pretty active community, but I miss games that can be won by the village on sheer analysis.

 

[Wagonlitz]

large part of the inactivity, I think, is that we've gotten out of the habit of playing Werewolf, and if we want the game to be more active we need to play more.

I fully agree. Activity breeds activity. And the longer we go with no game the more players permanently drift away.

Side switching is something I banished from my games.

Why? Without the possibility of curses you can create 100% iron clad JLs which are impossible to infiltrate ans super hard to pull apart.
And means you don't have to do the layers of need to know that JLs in especially large games do.

Like, I remember being Rysz' apprentice one time he was seer and there was a no hunt. He questioned everybody, including me, and for a few days didn't trust me with scan results.

That kind of paranoia is part of the game too.

If there's no curses and both scanners live to mid game, which they should on average, then you'll have multiple people at least partially cleared forever.
And if they team up early then you can basically permanently whittle down suspects.
Scan the same, suspicious player each night and you double clear a suspect each night. That'll swiftly lead to wolves being found by method of exclusion, unless they managed to get themselves be very likely villagers.

A collection of mostly women

Now that's the randy we know.
Jest aside, curious it's mostly women. I thought the fetish scene was dominated by men.

 

[CaptainGrimlock]

It's been a success in the sense that it's a pretty active community, but I miss games that can be won by the village on sheer analysis.

Yeah, those games are fun. Though the one I remember most fondly has got to be Hastinapur. That one was a cluster-F of behind the scenes plotting and backstabbing.

 

[Culann]

What are those percentages?

The first one was wrong, guess I was too busy having a Joe Pesci moment from Lethal Weapon to calculate it. The percentage of the total amount of villagers from start and after day 0 hunt. It's 73% and 71%.

I appreciate those who have said something about game design, gives me a bit to think about. I'm still not sure if a shot for wolves really balances things out with protectors.

Forgot to say it earlier some of my thoughts on the game seeing it from the GM's perspective:

Dedonus, Randy, and Maw played a brilliant game.

Wolves were well coordinated, and HistoryDude had a decent game as a first time wolf.

Yakman was dead on with his analysis on the Wagon 1.0 hunt. People ought to listen to Yakman more when he's making a serious point.

I can't wait for one of Panzer's schemes to pay off. Unless I'm the target of one of those schemes, at which point I'm going to regret this statement.

I don't think if I was alive at the end, I would have pegged Randy as the turned villager either. I'm still in a bit of awe over Dedonus's read, clearly a man you don't play poker with.

More general notes:

I like the randomness of 50/50 roles and traits like OEO and doctor. Guess nearly 30 years of table top gaming has made me fond of random outcomes.

I dig plotter with conditionals the number of possibilities with Randy's vote was fun to think about.

Yeah, those games are fun. Though the one I remember most fondly has got to be Hastinapur. That one was a cluster-F of behind the scenes plotting and backstabbing.

I remember that game too, for less fun reasons it was so nerve wracking as the sorcerer.

Jest aside, curious it's mostly women. I thought the fetish scene was dominated by men.

Depends on a lot of factors. It isn't always the case but to say more reveals too much and I'm way too Asian to be comfortable with that

I think it'd be best if someone started a new game Soon™. A large part of the inactivity, I think, is that we've gotten out of the habit of playing Werewolf, and if we want the game to be more active we need to play more.

I can host another one in a week or so as I said in my post in the General Planning Thread but I too would love it if someone started a game sooner

 

[randakar]

I fully agree. Activity breeds activity. And the longer we go with no game the more players permanently drift away.

Agreed.

Why? Without the possibility of curses you can create 100% iron clad JLs which are impossible to infiltrate ans super hard to pull apart.
And means you don't have to do the layers of need to know that JLs in especially large games do.

Like, I remember being Rysz' apprentice one time he was seer and there was a no hunt. He questioned everybody, including me, and for a few days didn't trust me with scan results.

That kind of paranoia is part of the game too.

I have been hit with curses more times than I can count, both personally and in games and it tends to be either:

- Suddenly one wolf more in a game already dominated by a JL, no way to get information on said wolf, all history goes out the window, it becomes an unanalysable.crapshoot
- nobody actually hunts the curse
- the curses get hit early, resulting in an extra wolf that might as well have been there from the start.

It's nowhere near as balancing as it should be.

I get that an ironman JL is no fun but I tend to compensate by giving baddies more killing power and other tools like SA.
The most recent experiment had the spectators - including all of the dead players - voting to, optionally, give the living players gifts. Awards for good play, and with restrictions - basically, only the weak side could get stuff if the game was out of balance.

Now that's the randy we know.
Jest aside, curious it's mostly women. I thought the fetish scene was dominated by men.

I don't know about other countries but in the Netherlands the scene is quite diverse. It used to be very traditional, older leather clad "real masters" men with young subs, but nowadays it's a haven for the different. Non-binary and transgenders are quite common, lots of poly folks, even a whole subgroup of asexuals who, believe it or not, found each other on a site devoted to the most kinky stuff imaginable.

And the Discord server seems to have been self-selecting a lot of socially active semi-nerdy women. For some reason.

 

[randakar]

I dig plotter with conditionals the number of possibilities with Randy's vote was fun to think about.

You mean this?

Standing plotter order:
- If I can save myself from being lynched by changing my vote, switch my vote.
- If I can make a tie exclusively between non-packmates, switch my vote to do so.

When picking what to plot-vote, please switch to a non-packmate if possible, and only to packmates if it saves myself or prevents ties between multiple packmates. In case of ties between targets, choose the first name in reverse alphabetical order. ("Z" first)

 

[randakar]

That was the day sleepy decided to shoot wagonlitz, I believe.

 

[Culann]

You mean this?

Yeah, I thought that was great! I spent most of the day thinking about how that would go down and the possible fall out from it. A shame I didn't get to see it in action. Always next time.

 

[happycats517]

I wouldn't mind playing in another game as I died pretty early in this one. It's okay though as I would have totally ghosted this thread one day and probably missed a vote since our quick visit with a kiddo turned out to be very long.