Top National Ideas

[Grubnessul]

NB allows you to pay for double the size of army.
Also it is very usefull outside wars, unlike MD.
NB>MD, end of the story.

Merchants are only good only when you can cash the trade money via inflation reduction. The tech inestment is good, but you effectivly pay your money to get better tech, instead of investing them in buildings, army, wars, diplomacy.

No. NB allows you to tap into your monthly income with a smaller penalty than normally. Nevertheless, it is something what you should try to avoid if at all possible. If you live off your yearly taxes than NB is a wasted NI slot.

Moreover, MD allows you to set your military upkeep very low while you still can kill rebels early in the game, allowing you easier to live without minting.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

The same inflation that will hold your goverment tech 9?

MoM is iflation reduction. Didn`t i said trade is very usefull IF you have that?

How exactly does 1-3% of inflation you aquire as a naval power early on in any way halt your tech speed? Lets just do this little thought excercise: 50% of your income comes from trade. Thus National Trade policy increases your income by 5%. That means you can afford to get 5% Inflation more without feeling any negative consequences than you could if you had taken National Bank instead. Those 5% means 5 years worth of income. National Bank allows you to mint 10% of your income per year. That means that it would take you 50 years of nonstop minting at 10% of your income for the two ideas to even out.

You also have other things to put money on. Army is not the only thing there. But Ok, be my guest.

You get ~3 magistrates per year, so 3 building/yaer, so 150 for LVL 1 building, or 210 for 2 lvl.

So far so good.

My forcelimits are 81, i`m using 71 of that. Maintenance 22 ducats/month 100%, 260/year(assume war)

You dont need to be at 100% Maintenance a year, so decrease that number to 200/year at most.
I also have a number of diplomats, that i may spend ~100 gold on diplomacy.

The net summ is ~570, currently the 1450 year, I`m +3 stability ENG, and i own most of France, my end of the year tax is only 340(so about half of what i would like to have).

You will need to pay around 500 gold a year, not all that much more. But you miss the most impiortant factor: Whats your income? I would think around 1k or so (give or take 200). That means national bank allows you to mint 100-120 gold, as does a MoM. Both sums are nearly enough to finance your endaveours. You dont need both, thats a fact.
And even if you dont have an Inflation reducing advisor, you will only get .1 Inflation per year. Thats not much. Thats not even noticeable and can be burned through free subject slider moves (-.6666 inflation every ~10 years) and an increased income later on.

Now lets just for the heck of it compare NI's and advisors: Both NB and NTP have a corresponding advisor. A lvl 6 Collector gives you +6% Trade Efficiency, i.e. 4% less than NTP. A lvl 6 MoM gives you .12% INflation reduction, i.e. 2% more than NB. By the numbers you can see that either the MoM is overpowered, the Collector is underpowered, NB is underpoered or NTP is overpowered. I heavily go by the Argument that NTP is very strong and NB is weak.

There are 3 resourses in game that are essential. Ducats, Manpower, Magistrates. Enything else can easilly be gained by application of the above 3.

Thats just wrong. There are 2 Ressources in the game: Income and Magistrates. Manpower is created through builidng Land Buildings or conquering stuff.
Ducats are by large created through minting parts of your Income.
You cant really create Income through Magistrates either. There are very few buildings that really increase your income (most LvL 6 Builings, the trade line and part of the production line). The rest moststly gives you some ducats to play with or reduces your cost in ducats.

 

[The-King]

National bank is overrated, in a multiplayer game you don't want to use it because it'll slow down your tech speed and if you're behind in land tech you're not going to have a good time (nations like england or venice don't need to worry too much about land tech, the importance of land tech mainly applies to land nations).

In single player, if you start as a major like england or france you will never need national bank, but if you start as a minor it could still be useful and a small nation can potentially swap out ideas very easily due to a small stab cost and suit the NI to the situation. With that said I think tech speed is still much more important as you'll want to get land techs before other nations so you get an edge (and fighting wars with military drill and a higher tier of unit against the AI is much more easier then having a lower unit tier);.

 

[brifbates]

National bank is overrated, in a multiplayer game you don't want to use it because it'll slow down your tech speed and if you're behind in land tech you're not going to have a good time (nations like england or venice don't need to worry too much about land tech, the importance of land tech mainly applies to land nations).

National Bank went from an almost must-have to an almost must-not-have when the advisor rules were changed making 5/6 star rules so much more readily available. If you are playing a version from before the cultural tradition system was implemented NB is quite useful despite the negative effect, however, once 5/6 star MoMs are on every street corner NB lost a huge amount of its appeal.

 

[1alexey]

No. NB allows you to tap into your monthly income with a smaller penalty than normally. Nevertheless, it is something what you should try to avoid if at all possible. If you live off your yearly taxes than NB is a wasted NI slot.

Moreover, MD allows you to set your military upkeep very low while you still can kill rebels early in the game, allowing you easier to live without minting.

That sololey depends on what you spend it on. In case of buildings, manufacturies, and conquest, you invest heavilly in you`r future.

How exactly does 1-3% of inflation you aquire as a naval power early on in any way halt your tech speed? Lets just do this little thought excercise: 50% of your income comes from trade. Thus National Trade policy increases your income by 5%. That means you can afford to get 5% Inflation more without feeling any negative consequences than you could if you had taken National Bank instead. Those 5% means 5 years worth of income. National Bank allows you to mint 10% of your income per year. That means that it would take you 50 years of nonstop minting at 10% of your income for the two ideas to even out.

So far so good.

You dont need to be at 100% Maintenance a year, so decrease that number to 200/year at most.
I also have a number of diplomats, that i may spend ~100 gold on diplomacy.

You will need to pay around 500 gold a year, not all that much more. But you miss the most impiortant factor: Whats your income? I would think around 1k or so (give or take 200). That means national bank allows you to mint 100-120 gold, as does a MoM. Both sums are nearly enough to finance your endaveours. You dont need both, thats a fact.
And even if you dont have an Inflation reducing advisor, you will only get .1 Inflation per year. Thats not much. Thats not even noticeable and can be burned through free subject slider moves (-.6666 inflation every ~10 years) and an increased income later on.

Now lets just for the heck of it compare NI's and advisors: Both NB and NTP have a corresponding advisor. A lvl 6 Collector gives you +6% Trade Efficiency, i.e. 4% less than NTP. A lvl 6 MoM gives you .12% INflation reduction, i.e. 2% more than NB. By the numbers you can see that either the MoM is overpowered, the Collector is underpowered, NB is underpoered or NTP is overpowered. I heavily go by the Argument that NTP is very strong and NB is weak.

Thats just wrong. There are 2 Ressources in the game: Income and Magistrates. Manpower is created through builidng Land Buildings or conquering stuff.
Ducats are by large created through minting parts of your Income.
You cant really create Income through Magistrates either. There are very few buildings that really increase your income (most LvL 6 Builings, the trade line and part of the production line). The rest moststly gives you some ducats to play with or reduces your cost in ducats.

So you do accept that 3-5% iflation is perfectly fine, but -1 land tech is outrageous problem?

Also, i want a bunch of manufacturies, you know?

Comaparing MD+MoM to NB is not a good comparison. Comparing NB+Discipline advisor if fairly good.

National bank is overrated, in a multiplayer game you don't want to use it because it'll slow down your tech speed and if you're behind in land tech you're not going to have a good time (nations like england or venice don't need to worry too much about land tech, the importance of land tech mainly applies to land nations).

In single player, if you start as a major like england or france you will never need national bank, but if you start as a minor it could still be useful and a small nation can potentially swap out ideas very easily due to a small stab cost and suit the NI to the situation. With that said I think tech speed is still much more important as you'll want to get land techs before other nations so you get an edge (and fighting wars with military drill and a higher tier of unit against the AI is much more easier then having a lower unit tier);.

So far, the most named NI is drill, and it is vastly over-rated, especially after land tech 10+.

Also size generally beats the quality, it`s just so many people have the chivalry complex of not grabbing x2 the forces and winning unconditionally.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

That sololey depends on what you spend it on. In case of buildings, manufacturies, and conquest, you invest heavilly in you`r future.

Believe me, you can have all that and no inflation without ever taking NB

So you do accept that 3-5% iflation is perfectly fine, but -1 land tech is outrageous problem?

Also, i want a bunch of manufacturies, you know?

Its not about one frikin tech. Its about ACCEPTABLE tech speed. NB does not help you with that, the ecconomical ones do.
And you can gain Manufactories without ever having to mint more than 10-17% (Range most players come before Prod 30, without national bank)

Comaparing MD+MoM to NB is not a good comparison. Comparing NB+Discipline advisor if fairly good.

Erm, okay. On the one hand you have an advisor that makes your troops do 6% more damage. On the other hand you have an NI that gives your soldiers the ability to fight for 30-50% longer. In a typical game thats the choice between 40-50% Hitpoints or 6% damage, and noone would take the damage, believe you me.

So far, the most named NI is drill, and it is vastly over-rated, especially after land tech 10+.

Also size generally beats the quality, it`s just so many people have the chivalry complex of not grabbing x2 the forces and winning unconditionally.

Look, you dont know what you are talking about. Size alone can never win you a battle. One land tech can. You seem to be stuck in the limitations of very suboptimal gameplay. If you play your nation correctly and move the sliders right you can support a 150k army by 1480 without any problems. Being able to mint more without Inflation is of minor interest by then. Improving the soldiers efficiency is.

 

[DDRJake]

If you want to settle things, duke it out in a multiplayer game.

I personally think Nation Bank is a waste of a national idea. Didn't stop me recreating the third reich as Switzerland and creaming most of Europe in MP.

 

[1alexey]

Believe me, you can have all that and no inflation without ever taking NB

If it is also without MoM, i`m ears.

Its not about one frikin tech. Its about ACCEPTABLE tech speed. NB does not help you with that, the ecconomical ones do.
And you can gain Manufactories without ever having to mint more than 10-17% (Range most players come before Prod 30, without national bank)

The question is, how many.

I like to get ~manufactury each 2 years. (an no, i do not find paying ~20k/manufactory a problem)

Erm, okay. On the one hand you have an advisor that makes your troops do 6% more damage. On the other hand you have an NI that gives your soldiers the ability to fight for 30-50% longer. In a typical game thats the choice between 40-50% Hitpoints or 6% damage, and noone would take the damage, believe you me.

30-50%? do we speak about 0-tech new world?

Look, you dont know what you are talking about. Size alone can never win you a battle. One land tech can. You seem to be stuck in the limitations of very suboptimal gameplay. If you play your nation correctly and move the sliders right you can support a 150k army by 1480 without any problems. Being able to mint more without Inflation is of minor interest by then. Improving the soldiers efficiency is.

Thanks for patronising, now please show it, but without the PU-annexes, and not-HRE.

150k army, quality&free subjects, no more than 1/2 of yearly census tax.

 

[brifbates]

If it is also without MoM, i`m ears.

Thanks for patronising, now please show it, but without the PU-annexes, and not-HRE.

150k army, quality&free subjects, no more than 1/2 of yearly census tax.

Why without MoM? The numbers clearly show that MoM is better than NB. Other than trader vs SCP (which is harder to come by due to needing naval tradition as well as cultural) there is no other advisor that comes close to beating a similar NI although you can make an argument for military engineer vs engineering corps. In every other case an NI is pretty markedly superior to the assosciated advisor (if it even exists).

Until govt 17 you have the same or lower number of NI slots as advisors and yet you are trying to say that it is better to tie an NI up instead of an advisor even though you can get a greater effect with the advisor and you have more advisor slots available? Seriously?

BTW, not everyone abuses the PU mechanics/force vassalizes the HRE and uses other gamey methods to succeed at the game

 

[1alexey]

Why without MoM? The numbers clearly show that MoM is better than NB. Other than trader vs SCP (which is harder to come by due to needing naval tradition as well as cultural) there is no other advisor that comes close to beating a similar NI although you can make an argument for military engineer vs engineering corps. In every other case an NI is pretty markedly superior to the assosciated advisor (if it even exists).

Until govt 17 you have the same or lower number of NI slots as advisors and yet you are trying to say that it is better to tie an NI up instead of an advisor even though you can get a greater effect with the advisor and you have more advisor slots available? Seriously?

BTW, not everyone abuses the PU mechanics/force vassalizes the HRE and uses other gamey methods to succeed at the game

It costs you culture, which is not quite free after 4 techs, since you want to build buildings. In generai i prefer to use it on more usefull advisors, thad do not have an NI-backup.
MoM also uses same mechanics, so the Pick is arguable, though the choice of MoM/NB is situational, the other NIs are not as powerfull as inflation reduction or come very late.

Not everyone, but if someone is claiming something about how you grow not optimally, it is better to cross the exploits out before hand.

 

[1alexey]

In fact, I`d say there are 5 strong NIs,
Drill,
NB,
CAD for ortodox/catolic Patron for rest.
NTP,
EC.
QNW(unitll you reserch all provinces you want to see, than swap)

Advisors are:
Diplomat,
Ambasador,
Engineer,
MOM,
Marshall(somewhat),
Theologian,
Discipline advisor.

As one can see, there is bigger competition for the advisor slots, and mosts of NIs are not really must-have.

Unless you`re the Trade into colonisation nation, NB is a good pick as first policy to get a good cash flow for initial conquests and usage of magistrates for buildings, and fairly expencive at that point diplomacy.

 

[stnikolauswagne]

Here you are:
http://i.imgur.com/6A2p3.jpg (for some reason hotlinking it does not work
http://i.imgur.com/6A2p3.jpg
NI's are: NTB, SCP and Grand Army (could have done it without Grand Army and with MD though)
Of course I used an MoM, 5 star only though. And please dont argue about that pic. Its really, really suboptimal. I was only at land -1 and had to waste 2 slider moves on that since the template spain I used was geared towards naval MP later on.
If I would wait some 20-30 year s Portugal would have cored and the income and Forcelimit would have gone reall through the roof.
Sliders where +1 FS, -1 Quality, did not use sliders for that as going Land is better.
Would I have really tried i would have btw taken southern italy and france and tried to get into the HRE. And for real numbers i should have done a fresh France start and really played carefully (was only skimming by at 5 speed in that game.) Btw, yes, Aragon was taken by PU, but thats really the way everyone should play castille and it would not make a big difference either way.

 

[Ramidel]

In the late game, the minute I get the chance I like to take Smithian Economics and Cabinet. Cabinet, because it allows fast expansion while bleeding off infamy at lightspeed. Smithian Economics, because by that point I like to have a huge production economy, and Smithian Economics expands that by a fifth. (Which increases my minting income by a fifth, too. If you need more than that for a game, what are you doing?)

 

[unmerged(37198)]

In the late game, the minute I get the chance I like to take Smithian Economics and Cabinet. Cabinet, because it allows fast expansion while bleeding off infamy at lightspeed. Smithian Economics, because by that point I like to have a huge production economy, and Smithian Economics expands that by a fifth. (Which increases my minting income by a fifth, too. If you need more than that for a game, what are you doing?)

with the amount of CB's around and the use of PU's/vassal's you dont need cabinet unless you are trying to break the world conquest record in the HoF

 

[Ramidel]

with the amount of CB's around and the use of PU's/vassal's you dont need cabinet unless you are trying to break the world conquest record in the HoF

PUs are only useful inside your religion group. (Vassal annexation is a pain in the ass and not that helpful.)

If you're a European power carving up Asia, or the Ottomans continuing their jihad into Europe, you want Cabinet. Even Holy War only goes so far; one infamy per province adds up if you're fighting a blitzkrieg across the Persian coast or across the Alps.

Similarly, if you're fighting a massive colonial war to take the Americas all for yourself, you want Cabinet.

 

[k-59]

I play HttT SP, and I play as European countries. I almost always go with National trade policy first, since trade is quickest way to get income early and the easiest way to get culture tradition. I like military dill because even thought I am far form the most aggressive player, I still use my army a lot. I don't like church attendance duty since I spend most of the game at +3 stab. I don't like National Bank because it is basically a 5 star MoM, but it's easier to get rid of MoM than NB. The only one the navy ones I find worth while is the one that gives +1 tradition. Mid game both Scientific Revolution and Smithsonian Economics are worthwhile.

 

[brifbates]

with the amount of CB's around and the use of PU's/vassal's you dont need cabinet unless you are trying to break the world conquest record in the HoF

It helps a lot if you have a succession of 3/4 star diplomat rulers. If you are a monarchy between holy war and revolution/counter-revolution you can rack up badboy pretty quickly with a bad diplomacy king.