The Presidents: 1836-1936 - An Interactive US AAR

[Gloa]

Yeah, they sort of require more people. Still, I don't want to remove them entirely. Maybe a 2 candidate maximum? At least for the time being.

The point of the primaries is to make sure that the presidential candidates are liked, and not just the first to announce their candidacy.

PS. It's now two candidates in all primaries post-1836.

(( 2 candidates still hinges on an odd number of votes in the primary (or even votes but no tie).

A 3 candidate run would, as long as each candidate can get some support, maybe actually help break ties. The third candidate can effectively be the tie breaker, taking a vice presidential position in exchange for adding his support to a candidate. Or, of course, one of the tied leaders can take the position (knowing that if he didn't, he'd lose to the combined support) - if there's a tied Right-wing, Centrist, and an less popular Left-wing, for example (so the right wing knows the less voted for Left wing candidate would rather join with the Centrist than him, so he'd get no role in government unless he takes the vice presidential role).

It seems fairly realistic that, barring back room shenanigans, such a coalition would be formed in primary runs in real life - the less voted for guy has nothing to lose. It would just be a bit more common here because we'd get exactly even draws (not the "neck and neck" but actually just a couple points different matches in real life) much more often (due to a smaller voting pool than actual party politics).

It still proves problematic if only the top two candidates get votes (thus, no third candidate can break the tie with his support, so no candidate who can tip the scales has an incentive to be the vice pres.). Maybe have it so that in a tie, the third candidate can drop his presidential run and whoever he sides with wins (basically letting him cast a vote now that he isn't a pres. candidate, with him trading that vote for a vice pres. role [although I guess he could just give it away without that]), giving him the power to tip the scales (or force the higher two to form a coalition).

Another possibility would be to have party leadership to make decisions in primary ties. However, that would require getting party leadership (picking at random? picking based on the story? picking by who matched closest to pop important issues? Alternating in a cycle? Having yet another vote? Invalidating party leadership from taking pres. runs?) - I can't think of any way that's not overly complicated and/or problematic in other ways.

What would a vice president do?
- Succession... well, that would require chances of presidents dying in office, which might be vexing for some players (because it unexpectedly breaks off a character).
- Perhaps a vice president could suggest one piece of legislation*? (they'd send what they'd think would be one act to vote on - you'd just take the first full Act that they mentioned, in case they made it too broad) This would give them limited power to support their agenda, and give their party or the general populace an idea of their good judgement for later runs.
- Or perhaps they could suggest a policy but on that only had minor things (which didn't need votes)? This could allow them to cancel out presidential policy to some degree in points where they differed, or perhaps to augment it in fields where they were more skilled, depending on how they and the president interacted.
- Maybe being able to tie-break in policy votes. If ties are likely, then this would give a bit too much power to the party in control. If they aren't, then it gives a little more power to the party in control, but only if the pres. and vice agree on the contentious issue.

On a somewhat related note, maybe have vice president picks open to anyone if there isn't a tie? Thus, unless the pres. needs the running mate to win the primary, or needs it due to popular support to win the general election, they could pick outside the candidate pool for people with ideologies fitting closer to theirs or for electability factors (getting someone popular with the other party, for example).

All of this makes things a bit more complicated, but I think some of the ideas might work.

*Potentially with the ability to trade this for the ability to block one of the president's issues from coming to the table to be voted on. That's a bit more complex, though.

P.S. Switching tickets or running independent/break-off parties would add some interesting historical flair to things, too, but I don't think it would work here. We just don't have enough party loyalty (so that crossing the party leadership or running on a less well known party name would actually hurt chances enough - and future chances - to dissuade people from using it all the time).

))

 

[BigBadBob]

Well, we all know it's a system's first test that exposes the problems. I've noticed a few in mine . So I'm making changes. The most important change is the elections becoming more all or nothing.

Change One: Policies by candidates are no longer voted upon. A yes to them is implied in your vote for a candidate.

Change Three: Reforms will still be voted on. However, the President will represent the government during the rest of his term. Thus, all big decisions will be made by him. This includes declarations of war and Alaska Purchases. However, presidents are expected to be reasonable and role-play a bit.

Change Two: Updates will go like this:
U1 = Presidential inauguration to the primary, which represents the National Conventions of each party. These will always be on December 1st of an "election year" (20.1.1837 - 12.1.1840 in this case).
(2 - 3 day announcement period, or until spaces are full).
U2 = Primary update.
(3 - 4 day voting period)
U3 = Presidential candidate update + December 2nd - January 19th. All big decisions during this time will be done as dictated by the incumbent president.
(2 - 3 day reform voting period).
Repeat process.
NOTE: In this time-line, election day is January 15th, and the result is announced and winner inaugurated on January 20th.
Repeat process.

If you have serious issues with these changes. Inform me, and we can all work together to come up with a better system.
Please try to come up with an alternative solution to post with any possible complaints.

 

[BigBadBob]

*snip*

That was a very long, but very good little essay and idea. Basically like #3 of my tie-breaking situations, but much better. I'm going to try and smooth it out, but it sounds really good.

Preliminary idea = In the event of a tie between two candidates in a primary, the candidate with the least votes should break the deadlock by voting for either one. Thus bringing his support and/or vote to them in exchange for a position as running mate in the election proper.

*Sigh* Such a mess right now. Never fear! We'll come through!

 

[King50000]

Well as seeing that these primaries are comming to a close, that I trail behind Mr. McAttack, and that there is very little chance of anymore votes for the democratic nominations, I, Nicolas Khur, conceed defeat and withdraw myself from the ballot. I offer my vote to Mr. McAttack and wish for those that voted and supported me to do the same. This should in turn unify the Democratic party and, with my hopes, a swift acsension for McAttack as our next president. And with these events, I shall not pursue my seat in the Senate and shall return to the life in the military in our comming war against the Mexicans once these elections are over. The best of luck to you all. God Bless Our Union.

Vote: Mr. McAttack - Democrat

((this shall be the last of Khur's role in politics for sometime))

 

[BigBadBob]

Mr. Khur. Your withdrawal has been noted, and your future exploits in the United States military will be recorded.

I admire the solidarity of the Democrats, and the persistence of the Whig candidates.

 

[Projekt 919]

I, Thomas J.L. Davis, believe that the whigs have given us democrats the election due to thier inability to decide on A single Candidate. All the better, for even if the whigs could decide thier party is weak and disunified; A mere band of Firebrand Radicals, Yankee Buisnessmen, and Abolitionists. In the Upcoming war against the Mexican to the south we need strong and unified leadership. War is a medicine for the nation, enlisting young men off the streets and teaching them discipline as well as stimulating the economy much more than any plan of Henry Clay ever could. Yet, The whigs would have us believe it is a poison that ruins the nation and decimates our young men. It is for these reasons that I continue to support you, Thomas McAttack. We southerners must continue to stand against whig subversion at home and Mexican opression abroad.

-Thomas J.L. Davis (in a letter to McAttack)

 

[zagoroth]

(Things are not going so well, are they? BBB, I have a request if it would be possible to keep a running tally on some post of all the votes, it will probably make it easier for all of us to be able to see how the election is going.)

 

[Projekt 919]

(Things are not going so well, are they? BBB, I have a request if it would be possible to keep a running tally on some post of all the votes, it will probably make it easier for all of us to be able to see how the election is going.)

No they are not Mr. Fender/Zagoroth. If your whig party cannot decide on a candidate the Whigs will be doomed.

 

[Seek75]

Whigs, we must stand united against the growing power of those who would lead us astray! These petty Democrats are little more than scoundrels and thieves; the very purpose of the party is to gag people on the issue of slavery. I say, let us stand under one candidate: Arthur King! He alone can save us from those who would cheat, steal, and bribe in order to get their way. Give him the nomination, allow Maine to be admitted into the union as a sovereign state, and keep the liars out of the noblest government on earth!

 

[Omega124]

Can I have my birth year changed to 1799? Thanks.

Anyways, I'll nominate myself, obviously if I can't, just lay low.

 

[Projekt 919]

Whigs, we must stand united against the growing power of those who would lead us astray! These petty Democrats are little more than scoundrels and thieves; the very purpose of the party is to gag people on the issue of slavery. I say, let us stand under one candidate: Arthur King! He alone can save us from those who would cheat, steal, and bribe in order to get their way. Give him the nomination, allow Maine to be admitted into the union as a sovereign state, and keep the liars out of the noblest government on earth!

Americans, Southerners, Countrymen! Will you listen without response to such vile statements by the subversive whig party? They seek to potray Slavery as Un-American and Contrary to our historical values and purpose, In reality, the opposite is true. Virginia, the home of Washington, Jeffereson, Madison, and Monroe would never have survived the seventeenth century without slavery and indeed this very union of states would not exist as we know it. Not only was Slavery a part of the past, but it is also part of the present and future. Nor our merchant fleet or the great textile mills of the north would have any material to work with or ship if it was not for the toil of our southern labour. And may I remind all of us Americans that while the whigs accuse us of dishonesty and other sins thier Leadership, notably Henry Clay, cheated in the election of 1824 with a terribly corrupt bargain to give the presidency to John Quincy Adams; a man niether qualified or fit for such a lofty Office. Therefore, I must conclude that the Whigs are the Real scoundrels and thieves; For they seek to steal our History, Our Prosperity, and Our Elections. Let us save America from the Subversive Liberals. God Save America and God save the south!

 

[Seek75]

Americans, Southerners, Countrymen! Will you listen without response to such vile statements by the subversive whig party? They seek to potray Slavery as Un-American and Contrary to our historical values and purpose, In reality, the opposite is true. Virginia, the home of Washington, Jeffereson, Madison, and Monroe would never have survived the seventeenth century without slavery and indeed this very union of states would not exist as we know it. Not only was Slavery a part of the past, but it is also part of the present and future. Nor our merchant fleet or the great textile mills of the north would have any material to work with or ship if it was not for the toil of our southern labour. And may I remind all of us Americans that while the whigs accuse us of dishonesty and other sins thier Leadership, notably Henry Clay, cheated in the election of 1824 with a terribly corrupt bargain to give the presidency to John Quincy Adams; a man niether qualified or fit for such a lofty Office. Therefore, I must conclude that the Whigs are the Real scoundrels and thieves; For they seek to steal our History, Our Prosperity, and Our Elections. Let us save America from the Subversive Liberals. God Save America and God save the south!

Pfft, Southern labour? Don't you mean SLAVE labour? You southerners make me sick. You walk around and act like that you're completely innocent, that owning another man is fine and not condemned by God, that you do all the work for everything, when in reality it is your SLAVES who do all the work, who pick the fields for cotton and tobacco. All but one of the people you named, Washington, were ultimately opposed to slavery; and while it is argueably true that we may perhaps would not have survived to become the greatest nation on earth without slavery, we must cast it aside now. I hold these truthes to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal, regardless of race, color, or creed.

 

[Red Cesar]

Agreed countrymen! While we have starving men in the streets of the North, and men dying of the hazardous conditions in these factories while their women and children suffer the consequences, the Negro men of the south are in even worse condition! They are brutally beaten, summarily executed, and forced to work beyond the capabilities of the common man! We must achieve the actual equality for all set out by our forefathers, regardless of race, origin, background, or birthplace. Liberate the slaves!

 

[Projekt 919]

Pfft, Southern labour? Don't you mean SLAVE labour? You southerners make me sick. You walk around and act like that you're completely innocent, that owning another man is fine and not condemned by God, that you do all the work for everything, when in reality it is your SLAVES who do all the work, who pick the fields for cotton and tobacco. All but one of the people you named, Washington, were ultimately opposed to slavery; and while it is argueably true that we may perhaps would not have survived to become the greatest nation on earth without slavery, we must cast it aside now. I hold these truthes to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal, regardless of race, color, or creed.

Mr. Carr, you accuse me and indeed all southerners of a great sin based on your interpretation of the holy book. However, your state profits just as much as ours do from slave Labour. You and the other northeastern states with your gargantuan textile industry would not function without southern cotton and your great shipping merchants of the 18th century would not have grown so wealthy had it not been for slavery and the slave trade. I myself move not to gag the house, in a democracy such as ours free and open discussion is encouraged, and should not be covered up by those in power. I recognize that to prevent the total collapse of U.S. industry all wealthy northern backers would pull out thier support for a abolitionist. Therefore I must conclude that your hands are as dirty as ours, and indeed I am a slaveholder. I have witnessed some acts of cruel barbarism by my counterparts in this Upper-Class southern world that I did not know about before I rushed into it. To provide for my family I must keep my slaves. But one cannot deny that slavery has done nothing to this point but make the United States stronger, so I say that until a better alternative appears let us preserve the peculiar institution. I doubt your electorate in Manhattan would appreciate it it all of your Textile Mills and Clothing Factories closed down and they were out of thier jobs.

(I can't tell if you know but i'm in character, I am merely acting as a southerner would in 1836. I myself am NOT racist)

 

[Seek75]

Mr. Carr, you accuse me and indeed all southerners of a great sin based on your interpretation of the holy book. However, your state profits just as much as ours do from slave Labour. You and the other northeastern states with your gargantuan textile industry would not function without southern cotton and your great shipping merchants of the 18th century would not have grown so wealthy had it not been for slavery and the slave trade. I myself move not to gag the house, in a democracy such as ours free and open discussion is encouraged, and should not be covered up by those in power. I recognize that to prevent the total collapse of U.S. industry all wealthy northern backers would pull out thier support for a abolitionist. Therefore I must conclude that your hands are as dirty as ours, and indeed I am a slaveholder. I have witnessed some acts of cruel barbarism by my counterparts in this Upper-Class southern world that I did not know about before I rushed into it. To provide for my family I must keep my slaves. But one cannot deny that slavery has done nothing to this point but make the United States stronger, so I say that until a better alternative appears let us preserve the peculiar institution. I doubt your electorate in Manhattan would appreciate it it all of your Textile Mills and Clothing Factories closed down and they were out of thier jobs.

(I can't tell if you know but i'm in character, I am merely acting as a southerner would in 1836. I myself am NOT racist)

((I realize. Prejudices still exist in my part of the country, but I try not to assume. I myself am acting a bit more radical than I would IRL.))

 

[Projekt 919]

((I realize. Prejudices still exist in my part of the country, but I try not to assume. I myself am acting a bit more radical than I would IRL.))

As am I, although I am a proud southern nationalist IRL i would never try to justify slavery

 

[King50000]

Countrymen please! This is not the time nor the place for a debate of this magnitude to be taking place. The plight of the southern negro nor the effects it has on our great industry are not what must be discussed in this election. We must contain such discussion until a time when it is relevent to the country as a whole, not just as a flag for the whig party to gather support. I call upon President Jackson to intervene in this and to see that this remains a peaceful election.

 

[Projekt 919]

Countrymen please! This is not the time nor the place for a debate of this magnitude to be taking place. The plight of the southern negro nor the effects it has on our great industry are not what must be discussed in this election. We must contain such discussion until a time when it is relevent to the country as a whole, not just as a flag for the whig party to gather support. I call upon President Jackson to intervene in this and to see that this remains a peaceful election.

(Im fairly sure the debate is actually over we just got a little too in to our charachters)

 

[Gloa]

Mr. Khur. Your withdrawal has been noted, and your future exploits in the United States military will be recorded.

I admire the solidarity of the Democrats, and the persistence of the Whig candidates.

((Amazing, we accidentally followed the political patterns of the time ))

An Open Letter to Political Minded Citizens and Americans of all the World,

There are some who say that us Whigs are a pathetic force, "disorganized" and "split". Indeed, we are quite divided with many ideas and many people. Yet is that not what our great country is? For there is no unum without pluribus. Our colleagues would rather speed rashly through their decisions, even for the commander in chief himself, relying on blind luck to give them a good candidate. What does this give? At the best, it is King Jackson and wars and all kinds of other troubles, hither-and-thither policies flinging around lives of soldiers or Indians or American money on whatever idea seizes them next. When the time comes, we will support wholeheartedly what is best, not simply our first guess or presumption. We do not need a "strong" leader as it is termed - a reckless, blinded leader with no reason. We need to be lead by wise council, even if that appears to be weak when we consider and balance decisions rather than rush headlong at the first opportunity. We are no monarchy, and American lives and the money of our businesses is no cheap rubbish - it is the time for qualified sensible decisions. It is time again for the Whigs, like those who rejected the rash policies of the British despot and formed by sound council documents of law and reason that not only won freedom, but won a government of unity and support - not simple anarchy, as the French rebels fell to.

And what are these sensible decisions? We are not a party of strongmen and generals, but of ideas.
First and foremost is Liberty! Liberty at home, rather than the wavering whims of "strong" leaders with their own national agendas. Treating our brethren with dignity and respect, not simply carting them off afar as the politically powerful seize land and rights from the weak. Liberty abroad, dealing fairly and justly with all other peoples. Shine the light of liberty to the people of the world, and let those who would hold on to petty greed tremble!
Second is Unity! We must develop into this great land that we have been given by Providence. Expansion West, by good judgement and the resilience of our people, not by grudges and feuds as the tyrants of the Old World used to follow. This creates just fractions and divisions. We must expand as a people and as one shining nation and example to the world. Similarly, we must expand and unify in our great industry and economy. Already, the United States has a fledgling industrial spirit based on our principles of hard work, freedom, and the rights of man. Let us develop this further, supporting local industry with mild but effective tariffs and support of building infrastructure so that man, material, and ideas can travel through our great expanses. In time, it will be that a letter from our respected militia in Oregon may come straight to us on this Eastern shore, together with the produce of the land, and families and men traveling this way and that to pursue good work and opportunities, in but days. A common peace, a common industry, a common wellbeing and prosperity.

Signed,
Daniel Gallatin, on behalf of the Whigs and the common man

 

[BigBadBob]

These are some excellent debates. Especially since everyone is succesfully keeping it in character.

Tally goes like this for now:

Democrats
McAttack:4 (5 if Colins' vote for Khur was transferred).

Whigs
Fender: 1
King: 2
Vinograd: 0