I'll echo what other have said @Chac1. I'm not very knowledgeable on the sagas or this time period, so whatever makes the most sense for you as the author.
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The Lost Saga
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Thank you for your support @Bullfilter , @Lord Durham , @Rensslaer & @jak7139 .
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Given these responses, we will push forward with the modified plan in a few days. This may allow a bit more posting frequency.
Notably, those who specialize in this area of academia seem to have some lively debates going about what to believe and what to discard as fact. Safe to say, I think, from my amateur opinion, that this Saga and definitely others will read more like historical fiction, with some mythical figures popping in from time to time. Among the various Saga authors there is definitely an interest in preserving some historical facts. However, it is also clear their primary goal was to tell good stories first. So we shall pursue that goal too, as best we can. Still very much the curator/editor at this stage.
P.S. In my haste, missed Bullfilter's comment originally. However, this has been edited to reflect that now. Apologies @Bullfilter .
I think it comes down to what works best and what feels most comfortable. No sense trying to shoehorn something that may or may not produce a satisfying result. Frankly, I'm just impressed you managed to gather the material you did. Either way, it's a bit of a daunting task, eh? No pressure
@Bullfilter said: "I trust entirely to your authorial judgement on this and whatever you think works best for the story and your ability to relate it. But in a general sense, adding new elements can be fun and entertaining, so long as it does not turn into “mission creep“ that makes things unworkable for you. In Chac we trust!
"Given these responses, we will push forward with the modified plan in a few days. This may allow a bit more posting frequency.
Notably, those who specialize in this area of academia seem to have some lively debates going about what to believe and what to discard as fact. Safe to say, I think, from my amateur opinion, that this Saga and definitely others will read more like historical fiction, with some mythical figures popping in from time to time. Among the various Saga authors there is definitely an interest in preserving some historical facts. However, it is also clear their primary goal was to tell good stories first. So we shall pursue that goal too, as best we can. Still very much the curator/editor at this stage.
P.S. In my haste, missed Bullfilter's comment originally. However, this has been edited to reflect that now. Apologies @Bullfilter .
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II. Odin Divides the Lands
Odin assigned his Northern lands to his sons. He put his son Skjöld over the realm of Denmark. From him comes the dynasty that is called the Skjöldungs.
They are the kings of the Danes. With Skjöld ruling the Danish lands, Odin then went forth from Fyn to conquer Sweden. Furthermore, Odin kept with him his son named Yngvi, who became the king after him in Sweden, and from Yngvi comes the dynasty called the Ynglings.
Sweden received its name from the people of the Black Sea, the land from which Odin had emigrated. For all the people in those southern lands knew that the land to the north lay in a place called Sweden the Great or Sweden the Cold.
Thus the brothers Skjöld and Yngvi controlled the regions on which the names Denmark and Sweden were later officially bestowed. These were the lands conquered by Odin upon his arrival in the North, including the lands of King Ferniot in Finland. Skjöld took up residence in Sjælland in a stronghold called Lejre. This would remain the royal seat of power for many later kings since Skjöld also conquered Jutland, which, because of its proximity, was also the first of his conquests.
This material is almost all from Arngrímur Jónsson’s Rerum Danicarum Fragmenta, with contextual edits. The English translation of Jónsson’s Latin outline of the Saga was completed by Clarence H. Miller who was an emeritus professor at St. Louis University. Academic experts believe some of the section regarding conquering lands in Scandinavia is summarized by Jónsson from Snorri Sturluson’s Heimskringla. In this regard, the author of this AAR, at this stage is merely a curator and editor of this material. Original material will be added later. Any image credits not found here can be found on the Preface/Content page.
The Lost Saga
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Scholarly conjecture regarding Odin's origin have certainly kept them busy. Our friend Snorri had him located around the aforementioned Black Sea\Sea of Azov, being forced to move north as the Roman Empire expanded. He's been linked to Troy and said to be modeled after Atilla. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to speculation. Fascinating, the theories, when you think about it.
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I never knew all that. Very fascinating!
It's interesting seeing his origins like this.
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Thanks for visiting, @Lord Durham , @Midnite Duke & @jak7139 . Thanks for waiting patiently for this post. This new access to Arngrímur Jónsson’s work is going to allow more posting frequency, but the pace will still be slow.
As for Frigg, she doesn’t seem to factor into these stories that I have seen. The women in Odin’s life are invisible but we know they exist because he is siring sons who go off to rule. Of note, Frigg as Thor's mother is more of a modern construction. In ancient times, his mother was Jörd, a Jötunn giantess who Odin had an affair with.
Regarding Thor, indeed, he is Odin’s son, but he is a god, not a mortal king. (Although he is portrayed as another ageless wizard with powers who happens to have a magic hammer, because actually saying he was a god wouldn't be allowed, as stated.) I just came across two chapters that feature Thor and I may decide to include at least one here if there is interest. In these chapters, Thor is treated as an equal to Odin and they disagree. Both seem to have more interest in the military campaigns and warriors and less to do with the kings.
The more I read these materials, like any myth, I think they are trying to explain larger happenings. There is evidence of a large migration from the Black Sea region Before the Common Era that displaced many people in Northern Europe eventually. This was happening thousands of years BCE. Perhaps these stories create Odin as a powerful figure leading that migratory push as a way to explain what happened. We are just now learning about these migrations from the DNA evidence.
Of note, because these stories blend myth, history, and attempts at drama, they must be approached with some skepticism. From a gaming perspective and the issue of gaining claims in CK2, I believe Sagas were used as a way of gaining credibility to lead an invading force to reclaim land, even if the claim was just a story. Skalds could be hired to make up stories for kings and others. So it is evident that Sagas were used in attempts to legitimize claims to territories and that is why you will read exaggerated accounts of kings, pirates and others who supposedly ruled or collected tribute from large swaths of territory. And those stories don't accurately connect with the historical record.
Finally, it is also clear these stories were constructed originally in their oral state to give legitimacy to rulers, which is why they trace their history all the way back to Odin. In that way, their rule is sanctioned by the gods.
I will point out that one of the aspects of the Sagas and the Germanic religion that I’ve learned is that there are contradictions and variations everywhere which of course today causes confusion and debates. Not an expert, but the religion and beliefs, from what I can see, were highly variable based upon geography. There are different Saxon and Norse demi-gods for instance. So as LD points out there are differences in the origin stories too. This is one Danish take, basically, filtered through the Icelandic historians.
Because the scholars who eventually set the Sagas to paper were living in a Catholic environment, my understanding is they had to vary the stories for their own self-preservation. They didn’t want to be accused of heresy for accurately portraying Odin as a god in these texts even though the oral versions likely painted him that way. Again, Catholics are doing the transposition of the oral histories to text, so their views are noticeable. For instance, Jónsson references “pagan rituals” several times in his work and I’m debating whether those comments should stay in or I should edit them out. So basically, the view I think he and Snorri Sturluson wanted to portray was basically with a wink and nudge that he wasn’t really a god, just a wandering wizard who had magical powers and who could use those powers to steer armies in battle to victory.
As for Frigg, she doesn’t seem to factor into these stories that I have seen. The women in Odin’s life are invisible but we know they exist because he is siring sons who go off to rule. Of note, Frigg as Thor's mother is more of a modern construction. In ancient times, his mother was Jörd, a Jötunn giantess who Odin had an affair with.
Regarding Thor, indeed, he is Odin’s son, but he is a god, not a mortal king. (Although he is portrayed as another ageless wizard with powers who happens to have a magic hammer, because actually saying he was a god wouldn't be allowed, as stated.) I just came across two chapters that feature Thor and I may decide to include at least one here if there is interest. In these chapters, Thor is treated as an equal to Odin and they disagree. Both seem to have more interest in the military campaigns and warriors and less to do with the kings.
Indeed, LD, fascinating and captivating, which is why I fell into this project. Yes, I see a lot of folks online talking about how Odin was part of the Trojan War then came north.
The more I read these materials, like any myth, I think they are trying to explain larger happenings. There is evidence of a large migration from the Black Sea region Before the Common Era that displaced many people in Northern Europe eventually. This was happening thousands of years BCE. Perhaps these stories create Odin as a powerful figure leading that migratory push as a way to explain what happened. We are just now learning about these migrations from the DNA evidence.
Of note, because these stories blend myth, history, and attempts at drama, they must be approached with some skepticism. From a gaming perspective and the issue of gaining claims in CK2, I believe Sagas were used as a way of gaining credibility to lead an invading force to reclaim land, even if the claim was just a story. Skalds could be hired to make up stories for kings and others. So it is evident that Sagas were used in attempts to legitimize claims to territories and that is why you will read exaggerated accounts of kings, pirates and others who supposedly ruled or collected tribute from large swaths of territory. And those stories don't accurately connect with the historical record.
Finally, it is also clear these stories were constructed originally in their oral state to give legitimacy to rulers, which is why they trace their history all the way back to Odin. In that way, their rule is sanctioned by the gods.
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The euhemerism in these stories is interesting. Will we see future appearances of Odin the totally-not god? Will he aid his descendants?
Why is the saga written this way in the universe of Lost Seasons? Will the Skjoldungs convert to Christianity eventually?
Why is the saga written this way in the universe of Lost Seasons? Will the Skjoldungs convert to Christianity eventually?
Actually, the story that the Aesir were actually Trojans is also from Snorri - it's from the Prose Edda (the version @Chac1 is using is from the Heimskringla). I don't think we know why Snorri changed his justification for the presence of the gods.
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Given the response to this post, I think I will definitely include an additional post on Odin that I was wavering about including. However, in that post, he’s definitely acting like a god or at least a powerful wizard. Eventually, he will aid his descendants but he takes some detours along the way while seeming fairly indifferent to them. Depending upon your beliefs, you may or may not find that godlike.
This is a very deep question. And as usual, I think you tumble to some of my unstated intent. Indeed, my thought is this is all connected to the Lost Seasons universe, but to add these lore posts to that AAR would create some real tonal dissonance. So it has to be separate. I’m not even sure when or how these items will be used in that way yet, but these make good reference points for specifics in Sagas that may be referenced.
My intent from the start was to connect some dots for House Skjoldung. I like the mystery of their story being partially lost. In this AAR we have a scholarly approach to reconstructing it first, and then adjusting it to the facts of the play-through later. We are still in the early stages. Also, in the Lost Seasons universe, the Saga would be complete, except for portions that had been forgotten in the oral histories. However, it was the job of the skalds to memorize these tales and retell them so the stories would be remembered. So my attempt here was to create a story that the Skjoldungs of the 8th Century would believe. The fact that you point out authors often constructed different histories for the same House is both a little infuriating (were they just intending to write historical fiction all along?) and difficult if you are establishing a foundational history for what the characters believe. (Of course, different family members can argue about disputed facts. That happens all the time.) So it may go against some parts of the Germanic or Norse traditions but the goal was to establish a single history for House Skjoldung.
Right now, the way it is written, is in the style of the authors/historians who recorded the work. Eventually, I will attempt to adopt that style as I fill in the various gaps.
Well, I think you know in the original timeline they do this early in the 11th Century. However, that’s two centuries in the future from the Lost Seasons universe. Highly doubtful we are ever getting to that.
Also, I will just say when I first arrived in AARland that @Bullfilter challenged me (jokingly) to keep revering the Old Gods as long as possible. I have taken that to heart in my current play-through. Perhaps I am method acting role-playing zealous King Þorolfr but I have needed to learn some of this to make sure he has all the proper background.
As noted, it’s not just Snorri who does this but Saxo Grammaticus too. Sometimes there are two or three versions of the same person written by the same author. What’s interesting is in reviewing Arngrímur Jónsson’s work that he gets so frustrated with these conflicting histories and stories that he takes some potshots at the other writers, without naming them. In the portions I will add here eventually, I will not only include those sections but also add additional context.
Thanks for the thoughtful questions and comments, @HistoryDude .
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IV. Froði or Frodo, The Third King
(King Froði (or as some have called him, King Frodo) walks through his peaceful lands in a painting created more than a millennia after his rule. This image was created with Playground and the Stable Diffusion XL image generator.)
Fridleif’s son and successor was Froði (or Frodo, as some called him), who was so-called because of his wide-ranging knowledge. Afterward, his name became an epithet so that anyone who possessed much learning and experience was called fróðr, or wise.
But his times were also crowned by such peace and public tranquility that no one thought it right to harm or take vengeance upon anyone, not even the killer of his father. At that time there was also a general cessation of robbery and theft, such that a gold ring that lay in plain sight on the public road that leads through the heath called Jelling was not taken by anyone.
Some believe that the tranquility of that age occurred during the time of the Roman emperor Augustus and hence in the year of our Savior’s birth.* They also say that during this time, the yearly harvests were incredibly productive, that the honey produced by the bees was abundant; and it is reported that the fields and the pastures flourished all by themselves and that “the meadows were green of their own accord,” as Virgil tells us, and that huge amounts of metals were mined throughout Sjælland. And in all these endeavors, King Froði himself was very proficient.
Then, after the passage of many years, there was an unusual eclipse of the sun, together with an earthquake that dislodged and broke up rocks and crags. And so they think that this was the year and the time of Christ’s passion. After this time, King Froði (called Frodo or sometimes Frið-Fróði** much like his father’s name had been appended, because of the public tranquility of his times) perished in a fire set by a certain villain named Mýsingr.
*Even though these are stories of the Norse, and filled with their mythology, the skalds who committed these works to paper were Catholics, as were the Icelandic scholars Snorri Sturluson and Arngrímur Jónsson.
**Snorri Sturluson writes of Frið-Fróði (or Peace-Fróði) in both the Heimskringla and the Prose Edda. He agrees with Saxo Grammaticus and Arngrímur that Fróði’s time aligns with the time of Jesus Christ. However, Snorri’s order of Danish kings does not align with Saxo Grammaticus or Arngrímur’s work.
(The material above is primarily from Arngrímur Jónsson’s Rerum Danicarum Fragmenta, with contextual edits. Some of the additions, such as the attributed Virgil quote are from translator Clarence H. Miller or his editors.)
Additional Notes:
Chapter Ten of the Ynglinga Saga written by Snorri Sturluson is similar to this chapter in how it relates the story of Froði or Frodo. Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus also writes of Froði or Frodo and dates his era as being from the time of Jesus Christ, which if true, would necessarily move back the timeline for some of the kings in these tales. Notably, other experts seem to feel this royal history begins later in the Third or Fourth Century. In his notes, Arngrímur Jónsson calls out the discrepancies in the genealogical record. He noted that not only the time periods were debated by some, but that depending upon the record and the country, there were completely different orders of kings in Icelandic, Danish, and other records. Arngrímur did agree with Saxo, however, in that he believed like Saxo and the original uncredited author of The Skjöldunga Saga that Froði’s rule aligns with the beginning of the Common Era.
There are also other Norse tales about the peace brought about by Froði or Frodo. Snorri writes in his tales in the Prose Edda that Froði actually creates his peaceful times through magic. In Snorri’s work, King Froði buys two Jötnar women to use as thralls from King Fjölnir Yngling of Sweden. These Jötnar thralls, Fenja and Menja, use an enchanted millstone, called Grótti, to grind a magical substance that not only creates peace, but also happiness, and gold. In her Book of the Sagas, Alice S. Hoffman includes this song sung by Fenja and Menja:
As Snorri writes:
"That night the Sea-King named Mýsingr came and killed Fróði and took much booty. Then Fróði’s peace came to an end. Mýsingr took with him Grótti, the enchanted millstone, along with Fenja and Menja. He ordered them to grind salt while they traveled away, and midway through the night they asked if Mýsingr had not grown weary of the salt. He told them to grind some more. They ground for a little while until all of Mýsingr’s ships sank, weighed down with all the salt they had ground over the many hours they had been ordered to work. Afterwards there was a whirlpool in the ocean where the sea had rushed through the eye of the millstone. Thus did the sea become salty."
~From “Grottasöngr” in the Prose Edda.
As noted, the beginning of this part is from Arngrímur Jónsson’s Rerum Danicarum Fragmenta, with contextual edits. The English translation of Jónsson’s Latin outline of the Saga was completed by Clarence H. Miller who was an emeritus professor at St. Louis University. The second contextual part is from Snorri Sturluson with Alice S. Hoffman serving as translator and editor. In this regard, the author of this AAR, at this stage is merely a curator and editor of this material. Original material will be added later. Any image credits not found here can be found on the Preface/Content page. The image from Playground is from an account where @Chac1 holds the copyright.
The Lost Saga
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The Child of Bethlehem blessed the Norse. I do not think that I have ever read a tale explaining why the sea is salty. Thanks
King Frodi's reign seems like an archetypal golden age. I did like the addendum that explains the background.
Does that addendum imply that a Christian Snorri Sturluson will still exist in the world of Lost Seasons of the Danes?
Does that addendum imply that a Christian Snorri Sturluson will still exist in the world of Lost Seasons of the Danes?
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Sounds like King Thorlfr of your other tale could use this advice.
It's interesting that, even though Frodi's reign is portrayed as a good time for Denmark, he also causes his own downfall by not being kind to the two jotunns. Presumably this is part of the Christian influences in the chronicling: "Yes King Frodi's reign was peaceful, but he didn't show kindness, etc."
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This continues to intrigue. I'm impressed with the amount of research you continue to put into this, @Chac1. I'm familiar with a lot of it thanks to writing about Snorri in a short story a while back, but you keep bringing up fascinating nuggets.
It was kind of hard to gain consensus when 12th century scribes like Snorri and Saxo had to rely on oral history and runestones, as well as injecting their own personal biases.
It was kind of hard to gain consensus when 12th century scribes like Snorri and Saxo had to rely on oral history and runestones, as well as injecting their own personal biases.
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Thanks @Midnite Duke , @HistoryDude , @jak7139 & @Lord Durham for your continued support. Definitely appreciated. (Thanks to the silent readers too.)
That said, I am flipping that question around in this AAR. What if Snorri and Arngrímur Jónsson were writing Lost Seasons of the Danes? What would that look like?
Well, it was only a matter of time before the young King Þorolfr jumped AARs and came to comment here. Lessons learned, Þorolfr? We'll see.
Thanks for all the good questions.
Thanks @Midnite Duke . Glad we could provide a myth that gives that explanation for you. Yes, the Norse eventually do embrace the Child of Bethlehem too.
Glad to provide a nugget or two you haven't read yet, LD!
Thanks @HistoryDude . Where I think the footnotes in the translation and other items need further context I am making additions but at the moment only in a scholarly way.
Well, I wouldn't put that out of the realm of possibilities. However, Snorri is 400 years in the future from the current Lost Seasons story and with our pace of storytelling it will be a long time before someone like him could emerge.
That said, I am flipping that question around in this AAR. What if Snorri and Arngrímur Jónsson were writing Lost Seasons of the Danes? What would that look like?
Agreed. This could show some bias. However, it could also be Snorri showing some cynicism in regards to King Froði. He wants peace and tranquility but not for the two who are providing this magical era for the kingdom. In this case, he becomes the fatally flawed tragic character: the king who reigned over the golden era (as History Dude said) but too short-sighted and definitely too mean to see those Jötnar women needed some rest. Could this be making a larger point about prejudices too? (The Jötnar always as the misunderstood bad guys of Norse mythology, even though some had positive qualities.)
My thoughts exactly. Reaffirming that these themes of vengeance versus forgiveness are universal and have tugged at humanity for millennia.
Yes, LD, no doubt. Indeed, we are back to Jak's earlier point. But as we've discussed, both sometimes confused the record by writing multiple stories about supposedly the same person and changing the facts and genealogical information. Back to the question of were they writing histories or historical fiction?
Thanks for all the good questions.
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