Vladimir talked about graphs. I personally can't make such graphs (we call them "histogram", no clue about the translating). If he can't too we'll have to make lists or such.
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Fernando Torres said:
You don't have MS Excel? =0.o=
OK, here're two of them... first is Org and second is Morale.
By the way, how do you include pictures in your post?..
Vladimir Pavlov said:You don't have MS Excel? =0.o=
OK, here're two of them... first is Org and second is Morale.
By the way, how do you include pictures in your post?..
Nice graphs. But I think that you have too much org in the early war years for USSR. Better make it lower before 42-43 and then higher increase in 43 onwards. Now it's almost linear org rise and I think it should not be that.
Soviet morale might be at the end be higher than that, even without battalion benefits. After all, they should have perhaps the highest morale (with Japan as perhaps the only exception) in the world IMO.
I do but i can't do such graphics.Vladimir Pavlov said:You don't have MS Excel? =0.o=
OK, here're two of them... first is Org and second is Morale.
By the way, how do you include pictures in your post?..
Anyway i'll use photofiltre.Here is the list of the doctrines, i'll edit will the values :
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I've edited my post and added some orga suggestions for the german tree.
Vladimir, i can't see your picture.
Vladimir, i can't see your picture.
Fernando Torres said:
WtF... Well, just follow the link:
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/704/graphsrj7.gif
Hmm, 70 org for Germany in 1940 and USSR with 60? I think Germany should have more - and the high point should be more than 100 if for example UK will reach also 100. I'd put German org to even as high as 80 at the eve of war, then next jump would come just before Barbarossa. And the doctrines of 42-43 would not give much org, instead other bonuses (tactical withdrawal bonus, cheaper units, morale).
And wouldn't it be good to have alternative doctrine for volksturm? That -10 org seems like a very bad penalty.
But yeah, that shape of graph looks better. There should be IMO jumps at the org, it should not be just almost linear straight.
And wouldn't it be good to have alternative doctrine for volksturm? That -10 org seems like a very bad penalty.
But yeah, that shape of graph looks better. There should be IMO jumps at the org, it should not be just almost linear straight.
Thats good now don't worry.
As i previously said, we'd better to make the german growth first. What do you think about my values ?
As i previously said, we'd better to make the german growth first. What do you think about my values ?
No, German has enough but SU has far too much. 60 in 1940 !!! This is damn too much. 40 would be better.Gen. Skobelev said:
As German you choice volksturm or modern blitzkrieg.
Fernando Torres said:
Well, mostly I think they are quite nice. Of course, I'd like to see a bit higher values so Germans will have better org than allies. And that volksturm -10 is so bad that unless it's compensated somehow, I would not research it at all even if it would mean forgetting the modern blitzkrieg doctrine.
I would put extra +5 for all three of
Code:
Movements Doctrine 38 +5 org (currently 55)
Schwerpunkt Doctrine 39 +5 org (currently 60)
Blitzkrieg Doctrine 40 +10 org (currently 70)So Germany would end up with 15-20 points higher at the Barbarossa phase. This would IMO be compensated by higher TC costs, higher MP/IC costs and lower morale than for example USSR. And this would also be compensated by the relatively slow growth after that (max +5 per doctrine for Germany) while the allies would get +10 or higher per doctrine to catch up.
Unless, of course, the German doctrine tree gives good org bonus to various battalions and the German AI builds many battalions. That way German high org would come from partly the doctrine tree for brigades and partly from the doctrine bonuses for battalions.
edit: ok, Germany is fine but USSR too high then. I'm mostly concerned with the ratio - and if Germany has higher org, it's easier to put growth to USSR and WA doctrines also without them overtaking Germany.
No, no, this is completely unbalanced. The Allied must have less orga but Germany shall not have 90 or such in 1941.
With my suggestion germany has 80 by Barbarossa. The Soviets could have 50 at the same time and 60 for the UK/US.
Then Soviets and Allied should have 95 by 1945.
For the volksturm, it will give moral bonus and production bonus for infantries.
EDIT : for your edit, we agree now ! This is why i want to make Germany first.
With my suggestion germany has 80 by Barbarossa. The Soviets could have 50 at the same time and 60 for the UK/US.
Then Soviets and Allied should have 95 by 1945.
For the volksturm, it will give moral bonus and production bonus for infantries.
EDIT : for your edit, we agree now !
This is why i want to make Germany first.
Fernando Torres said:
Ok. 80 sounds good as long as the USSR and allies are much lower than that. And yes, if you give good enough bonus for volksturm it will be worth vile for bonuses.
And yes, I made the edit once I saw your edit.
I've edited my doctrines-list-post with the SOV orga growth. Tell me what you think about it, we'll make the morale after. I don't know how much to put for Tuhachevskiy doctrines.
I would like to see qualitative edge still on the Germans even in 1945. Besides, if the traditional USSR doctrine gets into 100, it would be way too much to have Tuhachevsky doctrines netting more than Germans have.
I think I'd slash Mechanized Wave 43 +10 (currently 70) and Breakthrough priority 44 +10 (currently 80) a bit - or maybe give that org bonus only to arm/mech units? That would end the "traditional" soviet tree 20 points below Germans BUT would be IMO compensated by greater morale (something like 40 points higher than Germans, maybe even more?). And this would still give Tuhachevsky doctrines +10 instead of +5 in both years so it would end in 90 org total. Still nice, especially if the morale bonus would be as big as the normal Soviet doctrine morale.
edit: and this would represent also for the Soviets the need to get good armoured units to break through the German lines like historically.
I think I'd slash Mechanized Wave 43 +10 (currently 70) and Breakthrough priority 44 +10 (currently 80) a bit - or maybe give that org bonus only to arm/mech units? That would end the "traditional" soviet tree 20 points below Germans BUT would be IMO compensated by greater morale (something like 40 points higher than Germans, maybe even more?). And this would still give Tuhachevsky doctrines +10 instead of +5 in both years so it would end in 90 org total. Still nice, especially if the morale bonus would be as big as the normal Soviet doctrine morale.
edit: and this would represent also for the Soviets the need to get good armoured units to break through the German lines like historically.
I'd like to swap Soviet bonus for 40' and 41' to better represent the consequences of the Winter War. But otherwise.. well, in terms of game balance it shall be OK.
IMO, each of Tuhachevsky's doctrines shall give 5 org more, than basic ones.
And, yes, we're working on some "basic" org/morale now. The values shall be different for different branches of military. For example, Germany's infantry and garrisons should have much less bonuses to Org from blitzkrieg.. and so on.
IMO, each of Tuhachevsky's doctrines shall give 5 org more, than basic ones.
And, yes, we're working on some "basic" org/morale now. The values shall be different for different branches of military. For example, Germany's infantry and garrisons should have much less bonuses to Org from blitzkrieg.. and so on.
Vladimir Pavlov said:
Well, I think it can be justified that the new ideas are gotten from winter war but the new ideas are put into action only slowly so they come to the frontline units in 41 and later. And besides, I think high bonus in 40 and 41 (before German attack) would make perhaps USSR bit too tough at the start of Barbarossa campaign.
But yes, I agree with the extra +5 for Tuhachevsky (as I wrote above).
I made another edit so with Tuhachevskiy you have 100 org by 47 and without its doctrine, you have 90. What di you think about it ?
OK.. now we have 100 for German modern blitz and Soviet OMG (with Tuch.), which fits "mechanized blitzkriegs" of Malinovsky and Meretzkov in Eastern Europe and Manchuria very well. IMO, that's appropriate.
Fernando Torres said:
Hmm, I still think 80/90 would be better, coupled with very high org and very high possibility for assault combat event. If the allies reach about 95, I feel USSR should be lower than that. There were profound problems with the Red Army which did hamper the professionalism of the army. But I think your new edit is better than before.
Vladimir Pavlov said:
Well, it's a bit "what if" to talk about Tuhachevsky doctrines. I feel that despite the ideas there are certain things in Soviet system that do not allow as great org as for example the Prussian military system. How about 85/95 for USSR org, as a compromise?