Splitting the Chinese tech group

[Semi-Lobster]

I know it's almost certainly too late to effect the new expansion, but, it's amazing that after all these years, we still have this monolithic "Chinese" tech group for some of the most densely populated regions in the world when indigenous Americans have since got FOUR tech groups and Africa have THREE separate tech groups. A separate SEA tech group at least with it's own units would help the bizarre situation where Majahapit get "samurai" units. I think it would benefit both North Asian and South East Asian nations if the two were separated with their own units. This also might help draw some attention to the fact that the Chinese group units are fairly weak, especially between level 19 and 26, where usually there is an intermediate infantry type between 15 and 20 pips. I was thinking of maybe trying my hand at making redoing Chinese units and South East Asian units for the heck of it.

 

[Koramei]

I wonder if it'd help if we crowdsource the unit names and descriptions here? Maybe I just did it inefficiently, but when I made a new tech group in a mod, figuring out everything to do with the units was by far the most annoying part of it for me. I definitely agree it'd be nice to split the tech group up, but considering it's not that important (especially now tech groups don't even mean so much) I expect it wouldn't be prioritized; maybe if we do some of the leg work for them, it'd make it more likely?

 

[Trin Tragula]

More unit type groups would be cool (especially for the very large Chinese and Muslim groups) but it generally comes down to a lot of research time for very little gameplay benefit, which is why we don't split unit groups very often.
This suggestion would indeed be a lot easier to accommodate if it included suggestions as to what units might be used (balance etc, is better left to us I think but there needs to be a good number of types at about the same intervals year-wise).

 

[esbear]

It is allso woth remembering that the other effect tech groups have these days is the known land at the start of the game, This is a bit wired for the nations near the edge of the tech groups, such as the manchu tribes,who do not know that shakalin exists, even though Yeren controls it in 1444. Also the berber nations don't know that is on the other side of the sahara.

 

[Trin Tragula]

It is allso woth remembering that the other effect tech groups have these days is the known land at the start of the game, This is a bit wired for the nations near the edge of the tech groups, such as the manchu tribes,who do not know that shakalin exists, even though Yeren controls it in 1444. Also the berber nations don't know that is on the other side of the sahara.

While this is true it's perfectly possible to split unit type groups while keeping countries in the same tech groups as they used to be

 

[Zerodv]

More unit type groups would be cool (especially for the very large Chinese and Muslim groups) but it generally comes down to a lot of research time for very little gameplay benefit, which is why we don't split unit groups very often.
This suggestion would indeed be a lot easier to accommodate if it included suggestions as to what units might be used (balance etc, is better left to us I think but there needs to be a good number of types at about the same intervals year-wise).

Even if new units are not used I think it´s worth splitting South-East Asia from the Sinosphere tech, maybe only leave Vietnam in it if you find it better.

The biggest problem is that the Island of Java and the likes shares the same feature as East Asia and I think this region is big enough to be it´s own. Maybe is even really the last group one could add, given areas are now relatively of the same size and representative enough:

According to this map the Siberian tribes and Buryat are in the Chinese group? WAD?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I agree that while tech groups don't matter much anymore, especially that I don't think SE Asian should get any different institution penalties than they already have, that it would help a lot to break up the last monolithic vague tech group we've had since EUII.

As for units, I was dabbling around a bit with Chinese units. Something with a bit of variety with 8 major 'levels' of unit to put it on par at least with every other non-European land unit group. The main point being that currently China has a rather large gap between tech level 19 to 26. For infantry I was thinking for a specific Chinese line of units itself:

1. Shanwen Infantry: Song style armour and equipment continued to be used through the Yuan and into the Early Ming Periods. Armed with traditional Chinese spear and dao, the "Mountain Pattern" infantry in metal armour represented the classic Chinese soldier from the great dynasties of the past.
1. Weisuo Infantry: The establishment of the Ming Dynasty to many army reforms under the Hongwu Emperor. One of these reforms was the revival of the Tang era Fubing system of militias. Organized networks of farmer militia could be raised quickly and effectively in times of war.
1. Composite Bowmen: Wielding traditional Nu and also Zhugenu repeating crossbows, bowmen have been a part of Chinese militaries for centuries.
5. Jianer Infantry: With the collapse of the Weisuo system by the early 15th century, the Yongle Emperor instituted a series of reforms to re-emphasize professional soldiering. This was based on the reorganization in previous Tang and Song dynasties.
5. Tengpeishou: The cheap, light and flexible nature of the rattan shield and armour, made the "Rattan Shieldmen" one of the most effective fighting units in the Ming arsenal. Armed with Daos and qiang, along with their eponymous rattan shields and armour, tenpeishou units would continue to see service into the late 17th century.
5. Chongzu Infantry: gunpowder armed Chinese soldiers date back centuries, this refinement of early firearms meant a growing distinction from early metal barrelled Chinese gunpowder weapons such as the huo qiang (fire lance).
9. Yuanyang Zhen: The "mandarin duck formation", was a revolutionary combined arms unit developed by Ming general, Qi Jiguang that put together several different types of infantrymen into a single supportive unit that was self sustainable and symmetrical. The Yuanyang Zhen formation was used to defeat the wokou pirate raids against China's coastal provinces.
9. Shenjiying: The "firearms division" of the Ming army, Shenjiying were an early unit of musketeers established by the Yongle Emperor and armed with fire lances, cannons, rockets and arquebus based on the writings and theories of early Ming general Jiao Yu.
9. Wujunying Infantry: The "Five Barracks Division" was notable for it's emphasis on drill and tactical manoeuvre.
12. Reformed Yuanyang Zhen: After experiencing the prowess with firearms of the wokou, Ming General Qi Jiguang reformed his Yuanyang Zhen formation to heavily include a component armed with arquebus, giving the unit greater firepower.
12. Banner Infantry: As is.
12. Green Standard Army: The "Luyingbing" was a concurrent military unit to the Manchu Eight Banners. Consisting of Han Chinese soldiers and officers defecting to the Manchu Qing. The Green Standard Army was primarily used as a gendarme in the early part of it's history to crush domestic rebellion and made up the bulk of Qing forces.
15. Reformed Banner Infantry: After their disastrous showing during the "Revolt of the Three Feudatories" campaign, there grew urgent need to reform the once "Elite" Banner infantry who performed far worse during the campaign than expected. A re-emphasis on drill and discipline were enforced.
15. Reformed Green Standard Army: In light of their better than expected showing during the "Revolt of the Three Feudatories", investment into the Green Standard Army was increased with better equipment and supplies. Worried over possible declines in ability, Green Standard Infantry were also reformed along with Banner Infantry.
19. Tuan Infantry: Into the 18th century, the quality of the Qing military continued to decline. Poor performance by both the Banner Infantry and Green Standard Army in several campaigns led to renewed reliance on locally raised "regional" militia to reinforce regular Qing forces.
19. Any other ideas for level 19 tech? Perhaps Guerilla fighters such as the White Lotus rebellions?
26. I would say level 26 is a good place for an intermediate unit, with China's final unit coming at level 30 for about the time of the Sino-Burmese War I guess? "Late Banner Infantry" perhaps, "Western Drill Chinese Infantry" to represent the Chinese raised and armed by British and French forces in the early 19th century?
30. Yangying Infantry: Into the early 19th century the Qing government had begun relying on local governors to raise and equip supplementary armies to support the Banner and Green Standard armies. These locally raised professional armies began hiring western instructors with western imported weapons.

Obviously I would like to see this in conjunction with SEA getting their own units since their military history is VERY different from the units used in this Chinese one, the current single unit types for the Chinese tech group doesn't do them any favours either.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

More unit type groups would be cool (especially for the very large Chinese and Muslim groups) but it generally comes down to a lot of research time for very little gameplay benefit, which is why we don't split unit groups very often.
This suggestion would indeed be a lot easier to accommodate if it included suggestions as to what units might be used (balance etc, is better left to us I think but there needs to be a good number of types at about the same intervals year-wise).

Something along the lines of the African group vision splits would make the most sense, though in general I feel vision is too constrained in this game.

Unit type isn't a very big deal any longer, but it's true that Chinese is among the only groups that are weak compared to contemporaries in other groups at almost every tech level. In practice this matters little, but it is a bit silly.

 

[vaan24]

I would have set Japan apart as a technological group because they were isolated from the rest of Asia during most of the period covered by the game

 

[Zerodv]

I would have set Japan apart as a technological group because they were isolated from the rest of Asia during most of the period covered by the game

Not really, also the area is too small. The Ottomans have an exception on that.

 

[Koramei]

As for units, I was dabbling around a bit with Chinese units. Something with a bit of variety with 8 major 'levels' of unit to put it on par at least with every other non-European land unit group. The main point being that currently China has a rather large gap between tech level 19 to 26. For infantry I was thinking for a specific Chinese line of units itself:

This list is cool but I don't think the unit types should be exclusively for China right? I mean, if there are countries in the game that warrant their own exclusive sets I agree China is high up there, but from my understanding the standard in the game are mixed sets with units from all over the place- you get Mediterranean Condotta and German Landsknechten together for instance, or Japanese samurai and Central Asian steppe cavalry. By splitting the groups we'd want to get away from samurai all the way over in Java and so on like you mentioned, but mixing is still gonna have to happen to an extent.

So (I think) the list should be a mix of the most notable units from the various countries in the tech group- the Chinese group would still naturally be dominated by Chinese units, but with a bunch of Japanese units and a couple from each (or some, at least) of the other nations in the group (of which there'd only be a few, if we're splitting off a Southeast Asian group- something like Ming/Qing, Japan, Korea, Viet, the turkestani nations and Tibet?).

 

[DanubianCossak]

If you wanna do a single unit group youd need like 15 infantry units and like 10 cavalries, thats pretty much a bare minimum.

Personally i would love to split Balkans and Caucasus away from Eastern and make a Byzantine group.

Hell i would even volunteer to do it

 

[Semi-Lobster]

This list is cool but I don't think the unit types should be exclusively for China right? I mean, if there are countries in the game that warrant their own exclusive sets I agree China is high up there, but from my understanding the standard in the game are mixed sets with units from all over the place- you get Mediterranean Condotta and German Landsknechten together for instance, or Japanese samurai and Central Asian steppe cavalry. By splitting the groups we'd want to get away from samurai all the way over in Java and so on like you mentioned, but mixing is still gonna have to happen to an extent.

So (I think) the list should be a mix of the most notable units from the various countries in the tech group- the Chinese group would still naturally be dominated by Chinese units, but with a bunch of Japanese units and a couple from each (or some, at least) of the other nations in the group (of which there'd only be a few, if we're splitting off a Southeast Asian group- something like Ming/Qing, Japan, Korea, Viet, the turkestani nations and Tibet?).

It was just a mental exercise to see if it could be done for just China to point out how weak the current pool of land units for the "Chinese" tech tree is. I did that in a day. An East Asian tech group separate from South East Asia would, as you say, consist of units for the Tibetans, Uighur, Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese related nations, while the South East Asian would be Tai, Bai, Burmese, Mon, Khmer, Malay, Javanese, Acehnese, Bornean and Mollucan related nations. I think, as you said, let's crowd source some units and descriptions for infantry and cavalry, and we put them together like African and Western tech group unit and pick and choose "one Chinese, one Korean, One Japanese and One Vietnamese" per tech level (I'm not sure we can find enough units for Tibet?). I'm sure you can come up with one for Korea and Japan shouldn't be too hard either.

 

[esbear]

Another bennefit of making a southeast asian tech group is that this area used war elephants throught out the time period of EU4. I imagine they could be able to choose between either an ordinary cavalry unit, or a elephant unit. the difference being that the elephants would be very focused on offensive morale pips.

Some surgestions from early to late game are:

Southeast asian war elephant:
The size and strength of these majestic animals make them dominate the battlefield. The riders armed with the spearlike ngao are also quite deadly.

Elephant archer:
Not only are the elephants moblie, but, due to the hight of the animal, the archers on the back can shoot down into enemy formations.

Khmer crossbow elephant:
The Khmer empire often mounted large ballista like double crossbows atop their war elephants, to deal with enemy cavalry and warelephants.

Tusk sword elephant:
Attaching blades to the tusks of a war elephant makes it even deadlyer.

Howdah elephant:
A howdah is a large building like saddle. It allows more people to ride the back of the elephant, armed either with spears or bows.

Armoured elephant:
While their thick skin offers some protection, it is not enough against firearms. An elephant clad in armour, however is much more durrable.

Jingal armed elephant:
Placing a jingal, a type of large musket, on the back of an elephant gives them the firepower needed to stay relevant in an age of gunpowlder.

Culverin armed elephant:
While elephants were driven from the battlefields in most of the world, they continued to be used in southeast asia. mostly for supply, but also as mobile gun platforms.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Yes that's one of the biggest things I had in mind for SE Asia, conventional cavalry existed but it wasn't as important as elephants were to, at least, continental SE Asian armies.

 

[Koramei]

Wow, I hadn't even thought about elephants. Were those used in Southeast Asian warfare all through the game's period?

Could make an interesting unit pack.

and we put them together like African and Western tech group unit and pick and choose "one Chinese, one Korean, One Japanese and One Vietnamese" per tech level (I'm not sure we can find enough units for Tibet?). I'm sure you can come up with one for Korea and Japan shouldn't be too hard either.

I expect if I stretch it a bit I can find a Korean unit per level, but I'm not sure it's really warranted- I don't think it necessarily needs to be an even spread between all the countries in the group; militarily this period was dominated by the Ming, Manchu/Qing and Japan, and I think they should probably get a bigger chunk of the units- so say for the units at the height of Japan's Sengoku period, 1 Chinese, 2 Japanese and 1 other; during the Qing conquests, 2 Chinese, 1 Japanese, 1 other. And so on. At the start of the game the other could maybe be a Viet unit, since they'd just recently had their rebellion against Ming occupation. Then when we get to the Imjin War a Korean unit could be included. That's just my thinking anyway, but I think if we tried to add in every nation for every level it'd either get really crowded or maybe under-represent some of the more interesting Chinese and Japanese stuff that was going on. I guess it wouldn't hurt to just brainstorm everything notable and narrow it down later (or let the devs choose what they want) though.

And I can try to come up with a Korean unit list (right now I'd guess something like their flail cavalry, righteous armies, warrior monks and 17th century musketeers are what's worthy of inclusion) but I have to admit the specifics of Joseon military history down to army composition and naming and so on isn't one of my strengths, and there are a bunch of actual Koreans on the forums these days who'll have a better grasp of the terminology than I have, so maybe one of them should do it. If nobody else feels like it I'll come up with it though, I realize I've been deflecting this task on to other people a lot this thread but I am genuinely interested in seeing this happen.

 

[Trin Tragula]

What's needed to split a unit group is basically name and descriptions for units, preferably with a focus on how tactics and technology evolved over time. When you think you have enough for both new groups I suggest you post both lists in one post and ping me and I'll see if we can make it happen.
It won't be for 1.20 though.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Thanks for the input Trin, I think there any any here who could take a crack at a collaborative new Chinese tech group!

Koramei, I also like your suggestion, of rather than a static formula that the total number of different units per tech level doesn't change but the ratio does depending on the era of the country.

IMO the quasi-standard 1-5-9-12-15-19-26-30 levels are good but does anybody else have suggestions?

 

[Koramei]

Well, I don't think we should try and force a fixed number like 4 units per level just for the sake of it, it was just an example. I'm sure there'll be some levels where there wasn't enough going on to justify more than 2 or 3.

As for the dates, I was gonna bring up that I think we should make sure there's a unit switch for widespread use of firearms in Japan (~1560) and the midway point of the Imjin War when Korea and Ming had started to adapt to that (1596), but... looking at the tech list, those actually line up perfectly with techs that switch units already (12 and 15 respectively). There might be other events though that should really warrant a switch, so I don't think we should hold to the standard techs (and some groups in game already don't) but they're probably a good general guideline.


One final thing I thought I would bring up, in case Trin is reading- is infantry fire a total no-go on the early units, or could we write descriptions to accommodate it? Light (very light) anti-personnel artillery and hand cannons were thoroughly integrated into Ming regiments going right back to the start of the game (and before). Wikipedia is saying on the order of 20% in the 1440s. I think it'd be reasonable to focus on pikes and archery instead, but from my understanding (and I'll try to read more about this soon) the firearms were a very major feature of their armies.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I don't think early infantry with fire should be an issue as long as that stay with a general amount of total pips. I thought of this issue myself, and had the tier 1 archer option as traditional composite and Zhugenu armed bowmen which were a part of all Chinese armies until the late Qing. It's importance in Chinese military history is why I thought to wait until tier 5 to give Chinese gunpowder weapons with a fire pip (even though it goes back hundreds of years before the Ming, the Chongzhu on my half assed tree at tier 5 represent Yuan era troops armed with hand cannons with what we can recognize as barrels, rather than the fire lances of the previous centuries) but the fantasy "High American" tier 1 unit gets 1 fire pip but I don't know how balanced it is since I never use that DLC for CK2.