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Semi-Lobster

Tàishǒu of Rìnán Commandery
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Nov 13, 2003
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I know it's almost certainly too late to effect the new expansion, but, it's amazing that after all these years, we still have this monolithic "Chinese" tech group for some of the most densely populated regions in the world when indigenous Americans have since got FOUR tech groups and Africa have THREE separate tech groups. A separate SEA tech group at least with it's own units would help the bizarre situation where Majahapit get "samurai" units. I think it would benefit both North Asian and South East Asian nations if the two were separated with their own units. This also might help draw some attention to the fact that the Chinese group units are fairly weak, especially between level 19 and 26, where usually there is an intermediate infantry type between 15 and 20 pips. I was thinking of maybe trying my hand at making redoing Chinese units and South East Asian units for the heck of it.
 
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Finding Korean infantry is kind of hard to do. A lot can came out in case of artillery but it doesn't matter since it's universal all over the world.

Maybe some candidates?

5: Owiejinbup(五衛陣法; 오위진법) Infantry: Owiejinbup was first written by Munjong(Yi Hyang, that 2/1/1 heir at the start of the game.) in 1451 with help of Sejo, Sejo modified it two times during his reign in 1455 and 1459 and was finally completed by Seongjong in his reign at 1492. It summarizes unique formations and tactics used by early Joseon's army which proved to be successful in campaign of '4 counties and 6 garrisons(四郡六鎭)' and Daemado(Tsushima). Early Joseon troops were trained systemically with this theory.

6: Owiejinbup Cavalry: Owiejinbup heavily focuses on cavalry usage since most of the early Joseon's battles were against nomad Jurchen people.

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The date is kinda inaccurate with technology's date and it's somewhat strange to split it into cavalry and infantry. But I think this is the best name I could come up for early Korea.
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15: Ohgunyoung(五軍營; 오군영; Five Military Divisions) Infantry: After the devastating defeat of early Imjin war. Joseon decided to adept Qi Jiguang theory from book Jixiao Xinshu and made Hunnyeon Dogam(訓鍊都監) to defend capital from enemies. Later, three more youngs(營) were created to defend the territory from 'later Jin(Qing)' and last young(營) is added to reinforce capital defend.
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Yeap, I know, Ming has same named division as this one and they adopted Jixiao Xinshu's theory way before Imjin war.
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Well, I think that is all for Korea. 別技軍 is too late and too insignificant for the game in my opinion.
 
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If you're looking for some distinctive ones in Korea regardless of its actual use on the battlefield. There is dual blade cavalry(馬上雙劍) described in Muyedobotongji(武藝圖譜通志) which is military education book commissioned by Jeongjo in 1790 .

Mydbtj-masangssanggeom.png
 
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I was in the content pack thread about this... dual sword cavalry!
My excitement aside, the Korean military had not many notable advances within this timeframe... I will see what I can dig up though.
 
I agree that while tech groups don't matter much anymore, especially that I don't think SE Asian should get any different institution penalties than they already have, that it would help a lot to break up the last monolithic vague tech group we've had since EUII.

As for units, I was dabbling around a bit with Chinese units. Something with a bit of variety with 8 major 'levels' of unit to put it on par at least with every other non-European land unit group. The main point being that currently China has a rather large gap between tech level 19 to 26. For infantry I was thinking for a specific Chinese line of units itself:

1. Shanwen Infantry: Song style armour and equipment continued to be used through the Yuan and into the Early Ming Periods. Armed with traditional Chinese spear and dao, the "Mountain Pattern" infantry in metal armour represented the classic Chinese soldier from the great dynasties of the past.
1. Weisuo Infantry: The establishment of the Ming Dynasty to many army reforms under the Hongwu Emperor. One of these reforms was the revival of the Tang era Fubing system of militias. Organized networks of farmer militia could be raised quickly and effectively in times of war.
1. Composite Bowmen: Wielding traditional Nu and also Zhugenu repeating crossbows, bowmen have been a part of Chinese militaries for centuries.
5. Jianer Infantry: With the collapse of the Weisuo system by the early 15th century, the Yongle Emperor instituted a series of reforms to re-emphasize professional soldiering. This was based on the reorganization in previous Tang and Song dynasties.
5. Tengpeishou: The cheap, light and flexible nature of the rattan shield and armour, made the "Rattan Shieldmen" one of the most effective fighting units in the Ming arsenal. Armed with Daos and qiang, along with their eponymous rattan shields and armour, tenpeishou units would continue to see service into the late 17th century.
5. Chongzu Infantry: gunpowder armed Chinese soldiers date back centuries, this refinement of early firearms meant a growing distinction from early metal barrelled Chinese gunpowder weapons such as the huo qiang (fire lance).
9. Yuanyang Zhen: The "mandarin duck formation", was a revolutionary combined arms unit developed by Ming general, Qi Jiguang that put together several different types of infantrymen into a single supportive unit that was self sustainable and symmetrical. The Yuanyang Zhen formation was used to defeat the wokou pirate raids against China's coastal provinces.
9. Shenjiying: The "firearms division" of the Ming army, Shenjiying were an early unit of musketeers established by the Yongle Emperor and armed with fire lances, cannons, rockets and arquebus based on the writings and theories of early Ming general Jiao Yu.
9. Wujunying Infantry: The "Five Barracks Division" was notable for it's emphasis on drill and tactical manoeuvre.
12. Reformed Yuanyang Zhen: After experiencing the prowess with firearms of the wokou, Ming General Qi Jiguang reformed his Yuanyang Zhen formation to heavily include a component armed with arquebus, giving the unit greater firepower.
12. Banner Infantry: As is.
12. Green Standard Army: The "Luyingbing" was a concurrent military unit to the Manchu Eight Banners. Consisting of Han Chinese soldiers and officers defecting to the Manchu Qing. The Green Standard Army was primarily used as a gendarme in the early part of it's history to crush domestic rebellion and made up the bulk of Qing forces.
15. Reformed Banner Infantry: After their disastrous showing during the "Revolt of the Three Feudatories" campaign, there grew urgent need to reform the once "Elite" Banner infantry who performed far worse during the campaign than expected. A re-emphasis on drill and discipline were enforced.
15. Reformed Green Standard Army: In light of their better than expected showing during the "Revolt of the Three Feudatories", investment into the Green Standard Army was increased with better equipment and supplies. Worried over possible declines in ability, Green Standard Infantry were also reformed along with Banner Infantry.
19. Tuan Infantry: Into the 18th century, the quality of the Qing military continued to decline. Poor performance by both the Banner Infantry and Green Standard Army in several campaigns led to renewed reliance on locally raised "regional" militia to reinforce regular Qing forces.
19. Any other ideas for level 19 tech? Perhaps Guerilla fighters such as the White Lotus rebellions?
26. I would say level 26 is a good place for an intermediate unit, with China's final unit coming at level 30 for about the time of the Sino-Burmese War I guess? "Late Banner Infantry" perhaps, "Western Drill Chinese Infantry" to represent the Chinese raised and armed by British and French forces in the early 19th century?
30. Yangying Infantry: Into the early 19th century the Qing government had begun relying on local governors to raise and equip supplementary armies to support the Banner and Green Standard armies. These locally raised professional armies began hiring western instructors with western imported weapons.

Obviously I would like to see this in conjunction with SEA getting their own units since their military history is VERY different from the units used in this Chinese one, the current single unit types for the Chinese tech group doesn't do them any favours either.
I don't think it's appropriate for Chinese units to be based upon Manchu ones if the country isn't Manchuria or Qing.It's immersion breaking if you crushed the Manchus as a Chinese state when your infantry are Green Standard Armies........
 
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I don't think it's appropriate for Chinese units to be based upon Manchu ones if the country isn't Manchuria or Qing.It's immersion breaking if you crushed the Manchus as a Chinese state when your infantry are Green Standard Armies........

There are a lot of units in-game right now that are anachronistic given the inevitable alternative historical deviations that happen in the game, you have Akbarid Infantry in India, but in most games the Mughal empire fails to form, in Europe you have a lot of examples of units being tied to specific states like Maurician infantry but what if the Netherlands never forms? In the Middle East we have Afsharid infantry even though Persia doesn't tend to fall.

The pattern I see the units in EU4 is that Paradox can't predict how YOUR game of EU4 goes, we don't know what will happen. The only linear timeline for military progression we have is our own. We can't predict what the Ming army would be like in 1809, just like we can't predict what Japan would be like if the Mongols had successfully invaded it.

As for the Green Standard Army, it was formed from defecting Ming units and did not change a whole lot except in terms of weapons and drill, if anything it was probably the most "Ming like" element of the Qing military.
 
It's great to hear some insight on Korean military history, it's not something as I'm as well versed in so hopefully We can have a go at it. I think I'm going to try my hand at some infantry units to represent Japan. Cavalry is something I want to touch on after that, including SE Asian cavalry which can be divided into elephant or horse.

1. Ikki-uchi Samurai: For centuries the traditional form of Japanese combat was single duels between samurai, calling out individual enemy samurai to an honourable, ritualized single combat duel during battles, either with sword, spear or bow. The practice of calling out "nanori" (self introduction) and fighting enemies individually, while a core part of samurai conduct, fell into increasing disuse after the Mongol Invasion of Japan and the subsequent increase in the scale of battles through the Muromachi period.

5. Reformed Samurai: With the scale and level of organization of battles and war ever increasing during the Onin War, there was an increasing need to reform how battles were planned and fought in Japan. No longer singling out other samurai to battle individually, now battles were fought between organized units of fighters, with more specialized roles tactics.

5. Yumi Ashigaru: While commoners being drafted into battle by their feudal lords had long been a part of Japanese warfare, the scale of battles in Japan in the 15th century necessitated an unprecedented level of non-samurai infantry. Ashigaru were lightly armed and lightly armoured (sometimes completely unarmoured) infantry drawn from the commoners of Japan often armed with Yari (long spear) and Yumi (bow).

9. Sengoku Samurai: The warring states period of Japan brought a new level of professionalism to Japan's samurai class. incorporating neo-confucian and Zen teachings into their training, and increased focus on combat with the sword, led to the development of the concept of "bushido" the way of the warrior, the morale code of the samurai. The sengoku era samurai represent the penultimate 'classic' samurai.

9. Mass Ashigaru: The sengoku period saw even larger amount of ashigaru soldiers utilized by daimyos. The introduction of drill and the possibility of promotion for their service, ashigaru turned from undisciplined mobs into more professional armies. Ashigaru infantry would go on to play a pivotal role through the 16th century in Japan.

12. Nanban Samurai: Although reluctant to take up the “Clumsy” matchlock rifle. Japanese samurai did adopt many tactics and equipment of contemporary Western militaries. Not just armour but also western planning and drill.

12. Tanegashima Ashigaru: In the mid 16th century, muskets were introduced into Japan on the southern island of Tanegashima from Portugal and quickly spread throughout Japan. The matchlock musket soon became the specialty of ashigaru peasant soldiers. Eventually 300,000 tanegashima muskets were built in Japan.

15. Charge Samurai: Adopting “some” firearms into traditional combat, Samurai infantry became famous for their use of aggressive charge tactics, firing quickly and then quickly closing in on the enemy with their katana.

15. Fusilade Ashigaru: Drilled extensively to fire in rows and volleys, ashigaru soldiers have developed training to maximize the concentration and timing of their musketry. The organization of the ashigarus fire more than made up for the weapons inaccuracy.

19. Rangaku Samurai: Although pursuing an isolationist policy through the 17th to 19th centuries, a trickle of European science and technology was introduced to Japan from the Dutch. These included military treatise and other related writing on warfare. The acceptance of firearms by the Samurai class was finally adopted.

26. & 30. I don’t know if anything that could fit here given Japan’s isolation? There were some very large overseas Japanese populations in the Philippines and other parts of SE Asia during the 18th century. Some sort of “Westernized Drill Infantry”, or “Nikkei Nanban Infantry” perhaps or something like that? Contrary to popular belief Japan did still have guns in the Edo period, although mostly locked away in Daimyo arsenals, there were still 200 gunsmiths in Kyoto alone as well. “Feudal Rifleman”, “Shogunate rifle samurai”? Something generic like "Feudal Westernized Infantry" would also work as a generic name as well for several other East Asian countries as well. China, Vietnam and Japan by the early 18th century generally relied on locally trained and funded "regional armies" to deal with threats as the central armies became more decrepit. Often many of these local governors or warlords dealt with European powers separately from the central government to obtain weapons and training.
 
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I don't know much(close to none) about South East asian history. However I made some quarky skeleton from leader and country names from internet like Wikipedia to just make some starting point. I hope some Soutg East Asian guy or one who is good at their history participates and make better one for it.

1. Khmer footsoldier: While Khmer empire is just a legacy after abandoning Ankor in 1431, their equipment and battle tactics were still widely used in South East Asia.
1. Shan raiders: Raiders of Shan people have long history of their fight against Ava. These fearless raiders even raided Ming's Yunan.
1. Majapahit footsoldier: These amphibious warriors were backbone of naval empire Majapahit.

5. Malaccan Warrior: During the era of Sultan Mansur Shah, Mallaca had reamrkable army with help of famous Silat experts like laksamana Hang Tuah and Hang Jebat.

12. Bayinnaung Infantry: Portuguese firearms and artilleries were adopted and recruited as mercenaries in the era of Tabinshwehti and Bayinnaung. With this power they united Burma region and had victory in most of the open battles aginst neighboring countries.
12. Setthathirath Infantry: Setthathirath focused on guerrilla to defend country from Bayinnaung's mighty warriors. With this persist tactics, Setthathirath achieved victory and kept independence.

15. Naresuan Infantry: Naresuan and his army lead many battles aginst Ayutthaya into victory. Backed by artilleries and firearms from European countries such as Dutch, there were even some heroic tale about long range snipings.

19. South East Asian Musketeer

26. Reformed South East Asian Musketeer
 
RhoxOS, that's a very good start, and highlights the major military conflicts on continental SE Asia, I'll try to dig around for some later levels to represent Indonesia and Malaysian armies and tactics, and a level 9 and 30. I think your descriptions may be a little "florid" for the rather blasé writing style of EUIV unit descriptions but they really capture the chaotic late 16th century in Asia. here's a few ideas that maybe can be added to yours

5. Mohnyin Raiders: Under Saopha of Mohnyin, Sawlon, the largest confederation ever assembled of Tai Shan states was organized and annihilated the ageing Ava empire with their adoption of early Chinese firearms.

9. Early Asian Arquebusiers: The flow of firearms technology spread to South East Asia, did not come from any one source but from many. From India for Pegu, from the Chinese in Ayuttaya and from the Ottomans in Malacca. By the early 16th century foundries had begun producing firearms indigenously.

9. Reformed Malaccan Warriors: Under the "hulubalang" system, Malay states continued to expand their territory at the expense of the crumbling Majapit empire. Renowned for their fighting prowess, Malaccan mercenaries acted as military advisors to many South East Asian courts.

15. Ming Drill Infantry: With the fall of the Chinese Ming dynasty, many generals and soldiers refused to serve the new Manchu rulers of China. Thousands sailed instead to South East Asia and began diaspora communities, some with the hopes of overthrowing the Qing someday. With these new immigrants came the military traditions and training of the army of the Ming empire.

19. Iberian Drill Musketeers: Modelling their training on the fighting style of Portugal and Spain, several areas of South East Asia began incorporating European musketeers into their armies as mercenaries, trainers and advisors. Places such as Malacca and Burma were colonized or in conflict with these European powers and adopted these fighting techniques by force.

19. Dutch Drill Musketeers: Modelling their training on the fighting style of the Netherlands, several areas of South East Asia began incorporating European musketeers into their armies as mercenaries, trainers and advisors. Places such as Java and Sumatra were colonized or in conflict with these European powers and adopted these fighting techniques by force.
 
Not really, also the area is too small. The Ottomans have an exception on that.

Japan is one of the most densest areas in terms of tags outside of Europe, and considering known map area is now a primary factor in what tech group represents, it would actually suit Japan very well. Japan was pretty clueless about the world outside of itself, and coastal China (save for Korea and several island kingdoms.) Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea was part of its planned Chinese invasion, indicating even Japan was pretty oblivious about China outside of a cultural/religious perspective.
 
Although this thread is old, adding my idea here still seems relevant...

It seems SEA was always very much influenced as well by India and China. This is evident from them adopting indian religions and paing tribute to the EoC, always trading in between the indian and chinese superregions. So instead of giving them separate units, how about giving them the flexibility to adopt units both from the chinese and indian tech group? It could work in two alternative ways:

  1. Create a SEA tech group and give it both indian and chinese units. SEA countries then could choose units from a great variety, representing both indian and chinese influences.
  2. Do not create a SEA tech group, but give SEA coutries a national decision to switch in between chinese and indian tech groups. The decision would cost ~10 mil tradition. It would be available based on ruler mil stat and alliances. E.g. Ruler mil stat >3 and alliance with a nation from the desired tech group. Additional effect could be a small relations bonus with all countries in the desired tech groip. Countries in eastern and southern SEA should then start as part of the indian tech group.
 
Considering the game is probably on it's last legs, is there a way to introduce a southeast asian tech tree in there for completionist sake? Playing Ayutthaya and still relying on my green standard cavalry is giving me EU3 feels