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Shadow of the Andes - An Interactive Chilean AAR

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The issue regarding the support of Senor Rivera was a misconception on my part, for which I apologise. I had misinterpreted his response to a separate but related correspondence, regarding first a political union of the Partido Republicano and the Partido Nacional, and then evolving into an invitation into the Grand Coalition. That was indeed a mistake, and I wrongly stated that I had Senor Rivera's support for my candidacy. For this, I apologise.

But this does not absolve you, Senor Andonie. Regardless of the veracity of what I said previously in our correspondence, you gave me concrete assurances that, in return for the Nacionales entering the Grand Coalition and voting for you in the election, we would receive a fair share in government. You have denied us this. It is this betrayal of our party and of the Grand Coalition that is the basis of our complaint. Unless you can refute it, then you will remain just as guilty, regardless of what blackmail you drudge up against me.

- V. Severino
 
Again, I am willing to resign as Minister and have the position go to a Nationale if that will help relieve this tension... I can easily return to the Aurora de Chile.
 
Rogov said:
(( There's a lot to catch up on, but there is no way what Andonie just did was not a coup. Yes, incumbents like him and victorious elected presidents upon entry into office can stage coups; and what he's doing - repudiating the agreement he made to get a coalition; stealing the votes to get elected; is no different than back when the bunch of us declared the Empire.

I mean, by the rules of the game, any Nationalist general in office right now who disagreed with this would be fighting on the side of the constitution against the coup, he shouldn't have to stage a coup himself when Andonie is staging a palace coup like this.

Andonie is no longer president of Chile, in a legal sense, anymore than any of the two previous presidents who declared for uprisings were or Cesar was after declaring himself Emperor. By doing this he's completely invalidated his office and will have to stand trial. ))
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((its not a coup, its an election. If any general or cabinet minister wants to delare a coup against this they are free to do so. But this is not a coup, its a political manuever))
 
I am awed once more, Senor de Santa Rosa, by your willingness to put aside personal politics for the sake of unity. You have always been a great friend of mine, and the years of your presidency seem to have become even more golden in hindsight, following this ugly turn of events.

But I cannot accept a position in this sham cabinet, and I doubt any of my colleagues in the Partido Nacional are prepared to do so, either.

- V. Severino
 
Syriana said:
The issue regarding the support of Senor Rivera was a misconception on my part, for which I apologise. I had misinterpreted his response to a separate but related correspondence, regarding first a political union of the Partido Republicano and the Partido Nacional, and then evolving into an invitation into the Grand Coalition. That was indeed a mistake, and I wrongly stated that I had Senor Rivera's support for my candidacy. For this, I apologise.

But this does not absolve you, Senor Andonie. Regardless of the veracity of what I said previously in our correspondence, you gave me concrete assurances that, in return for the Nacionales entering the Grand Coalition and voting for you in the election, we would receive a fair share in government. You have denied us this. It is this betrayal of our party and of the Grand Coalition that is the basis of our complaint. Unless you can refute it, then you will remain just as guilty, regardless of what blackmail you drudge up against me.

- V. Severino
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So, we see the first cracks in your story Sir, what you call a MISCONCEPTION which was in reality a blatant lie in an attempt to become Presidente. Why should we believe anything else you say?
 
The President has declared a coup. I wonder, given that his new appointments have yet to gone through; interesting that he declared before that, an oversight for a dictator; if all the generals are going to declare for his coup or if any are going to declare for the government and arrest him for a legal and fair trial?

- Citizen Guerrero
 
Rogov said:
The President has declared a coup. I wonder, given that his new appointments have yet to gone through; interesting that he declared before that, an oversight for a dictator; if all the generals are going to declare for his coup or if any are going to declare for the government and arrest him for a legal and fair trial?

- Citizen Guerrero
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((Its not a coup. *IF* he is 'guilty' or so to speak, then it was a consequence of a political manuvere which is not 'illigal' and punishable according to law. The only way he will be punished *IF* he is guilty is by the votes, appointments and his future political interaction))
 
Rogov said:
The President has declared a coup. I wonder, given that his new appointments have yet to gone through; interesting that he declared before that, an oversight for a dictator; if all the generals are going to declare for his coup or if any are going to declare for the government and arrest him for a legal and fair trial?

- Citizen Guerrero
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((its not a coup so no one has to declare anything. AS I said OOC, we are still in transition period so previous cabinet and generals are still in force))

Edit ((certainly livened things up a bit :) ))
 
Senor Andonie,

Because attempting to discredit a man's character on the basis of a single instance is the oldest logical fallacy in the book.

Or to put it another way: how can we believe anything else you say when you have blatantly lied in a (successful) attempt to become President?

I have admitted that I was in the wrong, and that I cited the support of Senor Rivera without having first secured a concrete basis for it. But that is nothing in compared to the deception that you have foisted upon myself, my party and the people of Chile. I twisted the truth to advance my case to secure the coalition candidacy; you blatantly lied in order to secure your ascension to the presidency. My sins do not excuse yours - nor explain them away. In the end, I did not become president. You did, and yet still you betrayed myself and the Republic.

- V. Severino
 
(( It is a coup. You can say it is not, but I disagree; until TH shows up I see no reason why people who agree with me and not you should have to labor under you assumptions. I say that Andonie has declared a coup and that any officers and ministers who prevent his arrest are declaring for the coup. So I suggest that any officers or ministers who wish to arrest him declare FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND AGAINST ADONIE'S COUP like so.

Andonie is the one who has seized power illegally, telling the Nationalists that they can "declare a coup against him" would have been like telling the Republicanos during Cesar's initial coup that they can "declare a coup" against the Emperor of Chile.

No one is under any obligation to bow to the opinion of you or the other players that obviously have the most to gain from thinking of this is not a coup. If people think it is a coup, they can treat it like it is one; or else you wouldn't be able to treat it like it isn't one. Your right to play and speak as if it were one way is, in the absence of a judgement from TH, everyone else's right to play and speak as if it were the opposite. Game-wise there's no reason why your judgement or that of the Nuevo Liberal players is any more authorative on the rules than that of any of the other players and parties. ))

I wonder exactly how much of the current government are in on Andonie's palace coup and how many will remain loyal to the rule of law and arrest him.
 
Syriana said:
Senor Andonie,

Because attempting to discredit a man's character on the basis of a single instance is the oldest logical fallacy in the book.

Or to put it another way: how can we believe anything else you say when you have blatantly lied in a (successful) attempt to become President?

I have admitted that I was in the wrong, and that I cited the support of Senor Rivera without having first secured a concrete basis for it. But that is nothing in compared to the deception that you have foisted upon myself, my party and the people of Chile. I twisted the truth to advance my case to secure the coalition candidacy; you blatantly lied in order to secure your ascension to the presidency. My sins do not excuse yours - nor explain them away. In the end, I did not become president. You did, and yet still you betrayed myself and the Republic.

- V. Severino
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So Senor, If I had given in and voted for you and then found out you had lied, as you have admitted would I then be able to cry impeachment and deceit like you are doing now? How is what yuou have done any different from what you claim I have done.

Presidente Andonie
 
Rogov said:
(( It is a coup. You can say it is not, but I disagree; until TH shows up I see no reason why people who agree with me and not you should have to labor under you assumptions. I say that Andonie has declared a coup and that any officers and ministers who prevent his arrest are declaring for the coup. So I suggest that any officers or ministers who wish to arrest him declare FOR THE GOVERNMENT AND AGAINST ADONIE'S COUP like so.

Andonie is the one who has seized power illegally, telling the Nationalists that they can "declare a coup against him" would have been like telling the Republicanos during Cesar's initial coup that they can "declare a coup" against the Emperor of Chile.

No one is under any obligation to bow to the opinion of you or the other players that obviously have the most to gain from thinking of this is not a coup. If people think it is a coup, they can treat it like it is one; or else you wouldn't be able to treat it like it isn't one. Your right to play and speak as if it were one way is, in the absence of a judgement from TH, everyone else's right to play and speak as if it were the opposite. Game-wise there's no reason why your judgement or that of the Nuevo Liberal players is any more authorative on the rules than that of any of the other players and parties. ))
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((I agree with you its up to TH to decide but I dont see how it is a coup under his rules, but roll with it if it makes you happy))
 
You may well have done so, Senor Andonie. But the facts are, it was you who became president on the basis of a deception, not myself. You cannot shield yourself from attacks on your real deception by shifting the focus to the theoretical deception of a theoretical history where I became president. Either you refute the allegations against you, or you do not.

Regardless, my call for your impeachment still stands.

- V. Severino
 
Syriana said:
You may well have done so, Senor Andonie. But the facts are, it was you who became president on the basis of a deception, not myself. You cannot shield yourself from attacks on your real deception by shifting the focus to the theoretical deception of a theoretical history where I became president. Either you refute the allegations against you, or you do not.

Regardless, my call for your impeachment still stands.

- V. Severino
Click to expand...

Your hypocricy is outstanding Senor. There would apear to be no point in talking with you regarding this. Instead I make an Appeal to the rest of your Party. Good People, this impasse has been reached because of the actions of your leader. A man who has now admitted lying to the Presidente, attempting to form a coalition based on lies and now hides this by throwing mud at me. It appears I too was deceived. I thought he spoke for his whole party when he made threats and told his lies but I may have been wrong. Based on this I propose;

Replacing Santa Rosa with Senor Saez as to give representation to your party. There can be no deal with Senor Severino, he has lied and deceived too much but for the unity of this country this issue must be resolved. Do not let the actions of your leader prevent you form this. If Senor Severino is as self sacrificing as he claimes he will recognise this is fair given it has already been proven that it was himself that was deceiving.

Presidente Andonie
 
((Note: This is not a call to establish a party))

EVOLUTION, NOT REVOLUTION​

You, reader! Have you always been wondering why the FNT and the Communist party have never won a single election since their inception? I also wonder the same thing. They kept on trying the same thing again and again that hoping that the outcome would become different and promising the revolution again and again but it never came. I, Jose Mendoza, have enough of that. I advocate a new method of achieving a Marxist society, from Europe. The Way of Social Democracy!

So what makes us diffrent from the FNT and the Communists? Several points, comrade! Firstly, we have no interest of destroying the republic for we understand that the Chilean people have grown to love this proud and valourous democratic institution. We respect the current republic, we respect all the parties. So we shall achieve Socialism through evolution of society rather than revolution! We shall not overthrow the system and instantly replace it with a new one, magically, overnight. Instead, what we must do is to organize the working class politically, train it for democracy, and fight for any and all reforms in the state which are in the interest of the working class. We shall not fight with bullets but with ballots! Through legal and democratic means, we slowly shift from a Capitalist nation into a Socialist one by moderation and sensibility.​

Bring REAL change to Chile now! Join the Social Democratic movement!​

- written by Jose Mendoza
 
What the hell are you people talking about?

A coup is an extralegal change in government; it is completely legal for the President to appoint whomever he chooses. He's broken a promise, but he hasn't declared a coup. Please stop arguing about this point OOC - it's not a coup from my perspective. Nor is it a crime, so he can't be impeached. (There are no provisions in this thread for impeachment anyway.)

EDIT: Rogov and everyone else, calm down a little, and please stop making inflammatory statements OOC. IC is fine.
 
I will not accept any minister position whatsoever. You've already buried the hatchet with the Nacionales by refusing to fulfill the terms of the Grand Coalition, and therefore anything that does not include the deal that we made will not be acceptable at all.
 
ThunderHawk3 said:
What the hell are you people talking about?

A coup is an extralegal change in government; it is completely legal for the President to appoint whomever he chooses. He's broken a promise, but he hasn't declared a coup. Please stop arguing about this point OOC - it's not a coup from my perspective. Nor is it a crime, so he can't be impeached. (There are no provisions in this thread for impeachment anyway.
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((sorry, just saw your post, ignore the PM))
 
((If Andonie hadn't lied to the Nacionales, they may have abstained and Tamiuszki would have won.

Also, Zzzz, at this point in time, Social Democracy is a synonym for revolutionary Marxism. Rosa Luxemburg uses the term consistently, as do many others, to describe an international revolutionary movement.))
 
blindgoose said:
((If Andonie hadn't lied to the Nacionales, they may have abstained and Tamiuszki would have won.))
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((its called politics, he tried the same to me. Anyway enough of that))

Senor Santa Rosa, I believe you have handed in your resignation letter. Is this correct?

Presidente ANdonie
 
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