Maybe it is, but I really don't mind. There have been instances where the living see their legend already developing. And besides, it's hard enough to think of unit names for a Dutch CV.
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they event about the dutch clames of belgium and so on. maybe if they align with the germans, maybe the germans can get an event to give it to the dutch
and what about an event for belgium and luxemburg to accept/denie dutch demands on their teretory ??
I don't think Germany would have helped the Dutch taking Belgium or Luxembourg. It considered many borders towns of Belgium stolen from them by the Versailles treaty (and they are right). Luxembourg was quickly annexed and Nazi laws were instated, even forbidding the French half of the population to express their culture in their own homeland. Further, Hitler wanted all related Germanic people in one empire, and especially the Dutch were to be considered part of it. It goes against his character to assist the Dutch in "fragmenting" his desired 1000 year German empire.
If the Dutch had allied with him and already taken Belgium and Luxembourg succesfully while he was unable to prevent it, he might have agreed on letting the Netherlands claim French Flanders, but only because his interests in France weren't strong. But even then, I think he'd backstab the Dutch to realize his empire once the alliance ceased to be useful for him.
If the Dutch had allied with him and already taken Belgium and Luxembourg succesfully while he was unable to prevent it, he might have agreed on letting the Netherlands claim French Flanders, but only because his interests in France weren't strong. But even then, I think he'd backstab the Dutch to realize his empire once the alliance ceased to be useful for him.
C&D said:
Would a good Dutch CV name maybe, the "HMS Vliegende Hollander" (HMS Flying Dutchman)?
Some can be selected historically, some can be used from the correct unit name file. The Heavy Cruisers for example all have Indonesian island names. But the Battle Cruisers can use some of the proposed names from the Battle Cruiser plan. I'm not planning to completely change the file, just add or correct some.
I've done some thinking on the placement of bases and defences. Mostly just in Indonesia. Here's what I've considered. If I don't mention an existing base/defense that is already in the game at a province consider it removed.
Java
-Batavia:
2x AA
3x Naval Base
2x Airbase
-Soerabaja
2x AA
7x Naval Base
4x Airbase
Sumatra
-Oosthaven
5x Naval Base
-Palembang
2x AA
4x Airbase
Borneo
-Tarakan
1x AA
1x Coastal Fort
1x Naval Base
-Samarinda
4x Airbase
-Balikpapan
1x AA
1x Coastal Fort
+4 Oil production
-Bandjermasin
-2 Oil production
Celebes
-Menado
2x Naval Base
2x Airbase
-Kendari
4x Airbase
Molucks
-Ceram
2x AA
1x Airbase
Any comments on this? And does anyone have the dates and years of when any bases where constructed in the East Indies?
Also the province of Babo on New Guinea was said to have a rich oilfield. And there are currently large (controversial) copper and gold mining operations throughout the island as well. But does this allow for metal production there?
Java
-Batavia:
2x AA
3x Naval Base
2x Airbase
-Soerabaja
2x AA
7x Naval Base
4x Airbase
Sumatra
-Oosthaven
5x Naval Base
-Palembang
2x AA
4x Airbase
Borneo
-Tarakan
1x AA
1x Coastal Fort
1x Naval Base
-Samarinda
4x Airbase
-Balikpapan
1x AA
1x Coastal Fort
+4 Oil production
-Bandjermasin
-2 Oil production
Celebes
-Menado
2x Naval Base
2x Airbase
-Kendari
4x Airbase
Molucks
-Ceram
2x AA
1x Airbase
Any comments on this? And does anyone have the dates and years of when any bases where constructed in the East Indies?
Also the province of Babo on New Guinea was said to have a rich oilfield. And there are currently large (controversial) copper and gold mining operations throughout the island as well. But does this allow for metal production there?
sounds good. but what kind of improvement doe you have made on the tanks?? are they still the same as in vanilla ?? if i remember it well in HOI 1 there was a tank made by DAF. but when the war with germany started the dutch had an renault tank on test. i thought it was an t 17 iff i'm correct
I'm not so sure about your naval/air base levels. Take for example the 7x naval base on Java. Scapa Flow and Pearl Harbor are only 10x, that implies the Java base had approximately 70% of the functionality of those two bases. Therefore I think the 7x is rather overrated.
Similarly for AA and airbases, compared to the immense amount of flak in London and the Ruhr (which would represent level 10), did the Dutch East Indies really have 20% of that both at Java and Soerabaja?
While I can see some of these facilities add flavor, I suggest keeping their levels down so they are not overpowered compared to other provinces.
Similarly for AA and airbases, compared to the immense amount of flak in London and the Ruhr (which would represent level 10), did the Dutch East Indies really have 20% of that both at Java and Soerabaja?
While I can see some of these facilities add flavor, I suggest keeping their levels down so they are not overpowered compared to other provinces.
Egslim: Soerabaja was simply the best naval base in South East Asia. No other colony had the facilities available there. It started out for submarine maintainance, so it had many workshops the could repair periscopes, engines, batteries, etc. It had two drydocks specifically build for submarines. As well as torpedo factories. There was a naval airbase. And there had been plans for a huge drydock to accomodate battlecruisers. It should be no surprise the Japanese saw it as a very juicy target.
The Dutch had many small armies scattered around the archipelago. While outnumbered by the Japanese, it was not unusual for them to have 4-8 anti-air guns. Ranging from 40mm to 80mm. There were also units with anti-air machine guns and various other airplane targeting weapons. They were concentrated on Borneo to protect the refineries and oil wells. Ambon island in the Molucks had a disproportionate number of AA. Bases such as Soerabaja or the capitol city of Batavia could also count of good defences because of their significance.
Also, Soerabaja naval base and its AA are already in the vanilla version of the game. They're no different. All I add there is the airfields (which won't appear before 1940).
Dutch Rommel: I believe the T-17 Renault (obsolete in 1936) was the only tank deployed by the Dutch army before the war, but there had been calls by the military to increase the numbers of their tanks weather an attack by other countries. Politicians were unwilling to give the country better armoured vehicles. DAF build many Landsverk armoured cars for the army. But these could not fight tanks, and simply were just armoured cars, although they were best the best armoured cars at their time.
The Netherlands now have mostly British tank designs. It's mostly accurate, the KNIL had many armoured cars, tankettes, lights tanks and some medium tanks which where from British countries. The later tanks models are a little less accurate, but it is reasonable to assume the Dutch would continue buying American and British tanks.
The Dutch had many small armies scattered around the archipelago. While outnumbered by the Japanese, it was not unusual for them to have 4-8 anti-air guns. Ranging from 40mm to 80mm. There were also units with anti-air machine guns and various other airplane targeting weapons. They were concentrated on Borneo to protect the refineries and oil wells. Ambon island in the Molucks had a disproportionate number of AA. Bases such as Soerabaja or the capitol city of Batavia could also count of good defences because of their significance.
Also, Soerabaja naval base and its AA are already in the vanilla version of the game. They're no different. All I add there is the airfields (which won't appear before 1940).
Dutch Rommel: I believe the T-17 Renault (obsolete in 1936) was the only tank deployed by the Dutch army before the war, but there had been calls by the military to increase the numbers of their tanks weather an attack by other countries. Politicians were unwilling to give the country better armoured vehicles. DAF build many Landsverk armoured cars for the army. But these could not fight tanks, and simply were just armoured cars, although they were best the best armoured cars at their time.
The Netherlands now have mostly British tank designs. It's mostly accurate, the KNIL had many armoured cars, tankettes, lights tanks and some medium tanks which where from British countries. The later tanks models are a little less accurate, but it is reasonable to assume the Dutch would continue buying American and British tanks.
That's not true. Singapore was a far better equiped naval base:C&D said:
http://countrystudies.us/singapore/8.htm
The floating dock, 275 meters long, was the third largest in the world and could hold 60,000 workers. The base also contained dry docks, giant cranes, machine shops; and underground storage for water, fuel, and ammunition. A self-contained town on the base was built to house 12,000 Asian workers, with cinemas, hospitals, churches, and seventeen soccer fields. Above-ground tanks held enough fuel for the entire British navy for six months.
In contrast: http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Soerabaja.htm
In 1921, work started on the first and only submarinebase in the Netherlands East Indies. [...] Workshops were erected where complex equipment such as dieselengines, periscopes and batteries could be repaired. In addition, two concrete docks were built, specially for the submarines. To accommodate the crews and maintenance personnel of the base, barracks, well suited for the tropical climate, were built. A torpedoworkshop, where torpedoes could be filled with compressed air and armed with warheads was constructed not far away.
[...]
The largest drydock available in the NEI was a 15.000 ton drydock in Soerabaja.
[...]
The dredging of the Westervaarwater [1] to a depth of 9 metres. This was also done with an eye on the battlecruiser studies of 1940, in which 9 metres was the specified maximum draft for the ships.
To sum it up: Soerabaja was primarily a submarine base, without facilities for warships larger than 15,000 tons. Most of the available facilities were meant for submarines, not surface ships. Only after 1940 was the base dredged to 9 metres depth, which was still too shallow to enter for most battleships.
I think this would be better represented by having locked militia units at the relevant positions. Compared to the AA arsenals in place around London, Berlin and the Ruhr, 4-8 anti-air guns don't even register on the scale.
For KNIL tank types, perhaps this is useful: http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/KNIL_armour.html
If you'd play the Dutch, you're not in a good position to make huge ships anyway. Submarines, destroyers and light cruisers are what you start with and probably what you'll work with. Even though Soerabaja is limited to those ships, it'll give them all the service they need. The game won't ever deny any kind of ship service at a base, even if in real life the base did so.
And still, Singapore is not larger than life like it was in history. Singapore is lv 10. Scapa Flow is lv 10. Pearl Harbour is lv 10. But Dover is also lv 10, and Liverpool, Sheffield, Nowich, Plymouth, Portsmouth, San Diego, San Fransisco, Seattle, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Oslo, Leningrad, Rostock, Willemshaven, Kiel, Königsberg, etc. Even Dublin is the same size as Singapore. It's just easy to get a repair in this game for your ships. And that's not a bad things when you challenge naval powers from all corners of the globe. The naval bases just aren't meant to represent historical facts as much as give you a fighting chance on the high seas.
And to be fair, Singapore did poorly for its size since there were hardly any ships the Royal Navy could spare for the Asian theatre. Whereas Soerabaja had both the Dutch Royal Navy, American Submarines and ABDACOM ships operating near it all the time until the Japanese invasion of south-east Asia was pretty much already over.
As for AA, they wouldn't work as militia, garisson or otherwise some scattered infantry forces. These forces where airbase workers, local guards, and also AA operators. Good enough to operate their equipment, not enough to resist a determined attacker.
With the limited number of objectives on the islands, the anti air weapons where all concentrated around the few places of interest. So if the enemy planes entered that area, it was more likely they drew the attention from all the guns at once. Avoiding 4 guns at the same time just isn't the same as avoiding 100 guns one a time. If you put 4 guns at a refinery in Balikpapan, the enemy can't avoid them as long as his target is that refinery. Spread the guns throughout the town, and he might only get shot at once. Londoners might have had 50 of those guns to spare, but London had a hundred times as many objectives to defend. So perhaps you have to look at the spread and coverage of the AA available rather than how many guns you can bring to bear. It's not the size of your gun arsenal that matters, it's how you use them.
And still, Singapore is not larger than life like it was in history. Singapore is lv 10. Scapa Flow is lv 10. Pearl Harbour is lv 10. But Dover is also lv 10, and Liverpool, Sheffield, Nowich, Plymouth, Portsmouth, San Diego, San Fransisco, Seattle, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Oslo, Leningrad, Rostock, Willemshaven, Kiel, Königsberg, etc. Even Dublin is the same size as Singapore. It's just easy to get a repair in this game for your ships. And that's not a bad things when you challenge naval powers from all corners of the globe. The naval bases just aren't meant to represent historical facts as much as give you a fighting chance on the high seas.
And to be fair, Singapore did poorly for its size since there were hardly any ships the Royal Navy could spare for the Asian theatre. Whereas Soerabaja had both the Dutch Royal Navy, American Submarines and ABDACOM ships operating near it all the time until the Japanese invasion of south-east Asia was pretty much already over.
As for AA, they wouldn't work as militia, garisson or otherwise some scattered infantry forces. These forces where airbase workers, local guards, and also AA operators. Good enough to operate their equipment, not enough to resist a determined attacker.
With the limited number of objectives on the islands, the anti air weapons where all concentrated around the few places of interest. So if the enemy planes entered that area, it was more likely they drew the attention from all the guns at once. Avoiding 4 guns at the same time just isn't the same as avoiding 100 guns one a time. If you put 4 guns at a refinery in Balikpapan, the enemy can't avoid them as long as his target is that refinery. Spread the guns throughout the town, and he might only get shot at once. Londoners might have had 50 of those guns to spare, but London had a hundred times as many objectives to defend. So perhaps you have to look at the spread and coverage of the AA available rather than how many guns you can bring to bear. It's not the size of your gun arsenal that matters, it's how you use them.
Of course, but your allies will be able to use that base for large ships.C&D said:
Let's look at Portsmouth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Naval_Base
Along with Chatham, Woolwich, Plymouth and Deptford, it has been one of the main dockyards for the Royal Navy throughout its history.
Note that Scapa Flow was a wartime base, thus isn't mentioned here.
Liverpool:
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/boa/liverpoolandbattle.asp
Liverpool was Britain's most important port during the war. It handled at least one third of the country's imports. It was the main terminus for Atlantic trade convoys.
Norway had/built a huge merchant fleet, in 1938 they were the forth-largest shipping nation. So no wonder they have a large naval base in Oslo.
In 1914 the German ports housed the second largest navy in the world, again no suprise they have several level 10 naval bases.
While several of the bases you mention weren't large naval bases, they did have extensive shiphandling, repairing and building facilities. Soerabaya pales in comparisson.
I think the best measurement for the effectiveness of AA defense would be enemy losses or scattering of enemy formations.
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/japan_paratroop.html
When the 324 Japanese parachutist descended they were fired upon by KNIL troops defending the outer airfield perimeter. One Japanese aircraft was reported lost including the cargo of Yokosuka marines.
One aircraft lost compares poorly with the many transports the Germans lost during may '40 over Holland. You need a LOT of flak guns for effective air defense.
The game doesn't care about the size of ships. If it did, you'd have a choice between the size of your drydocks. You can 'anchor' your whole carrier task force in Groningen even if there's not even a single port where you can put your whole fleet in real life. That's like sailing the Yamamoto through the canals of Sneek. The game doesn't care about accessability as much as repair ability of ports and harbours. And like I said, it doesn't discriminate between ship size. I think it wants you to suspend disbelief and just accept that Dublin could service CVs just fine, even if the Irish had no navy to speak of.
The point doesn't have to be how large Soerabaja is compared to Oslo or Portsmouth. Many of the level 10 naval bases can't be compared to one another either. What matter more in the game is whether it was a large harbour. Soerabaja, by any definition, is large. It was before the Dutch came, and it remains large after the Dutch left. Maybe you can't compare it to the biggest ports on earth, but the game doesn't go beyond "big". For the game, there doesn't even have to be a naval base in a city to merit a level 10 naval base. New York, Boston, New Ark, Washington DC. They would have been level 10 bases even if the US navy had no bases there. Based purily on the fact that their civilian drydocks, piers, ports, services, everything is in huge abundance. Soerabaja to could call upon the civil sector for repairs to warships. In fact, the Soerabaja Drydock Company had to give warships priority (notice the use of the word 'ships' and not just subs).
You do show you've at least researched the AA issue before speaking. And after taking a look here http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/1247/ I now at least have something to compare Borneo with. So it seems true that their AA is neglectible. Still, I say the defense of Ambon is quite out of whack for such a strategically minor island http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/ambon.html. But I can't find numbers on the defenses of Sumatra and Java, so I keep the AA that was already there (moving that of Sumatra to a more sensible location).
The point doesn't have to be how large Soerabaja is compared to Oslo or Portsmouth. Many of the level 10 naval bases can't be compared to one another either. What matter more in the game is whether it was a large harbour. Soerabaja, by any definition, is large. It was before the Dutch came, and it remains large after the Dutch left. Maybe you can't compare it to the biggest ports on earth, but the game doesn't go beyond "big". For the game, there doesn't even have to be a naval base in a city to merit a level 10 naval base. New York, Boston, New Ark, Washington DC. They would have been level 10 bases even if the US navy had no bases there. Based purily on the fact that their civilian drydocks, piers, ports, services, everything is in huge abundance. Soerabaja to could call upon the civil sector for repairs to warships. In fact, the Soerabaja Drydock Company had to give warships priority (notice the use of the word 'ships' and not just subs).
You do show you've at least researched the AA issue before speaking. And after taking a look here http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/1247/ I now at least have something to compare Borneo with. So it seems true that their AA is neglectible. Still, I say the defense of Ambon is quite out of whack for such a strategically minor island http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/ambon.html. But I can't find numbers on the defenses of Sumatra and Java, so I keep the AA that was already there (moving that of Sumatra to a more sensible location).
Will you also be adding extra events to make playing the Netherlands a bit more interesting?
Note that while the Irish had no navy, the harbor in Dublin was quite large, with extensive facilities. It makes sense that a large civilian harbor can also repair warships. I mentioned this before.C&D said:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/USN-Admin-Guide/USN-Admin-Guide-3C.html
These facilities ranged from major activities such as New London, Connecticut and Pearl Harbor, to more minor bases such as Dutch Harbor, Alaska and Surabaya, Java.
Searching for Dutch Harbor, it doesn't even have a naval base in HOI2. Yet it is mentioned in the same breath as Surabaya.
I've been unable to find much information about Surabaya. A previous link indicated minor facilities, able to offer maintenance for the small Dutch navy, and some commercial shipping. I'm unaware of any shipconstruction or capabilities for extensive shiprepair at Surabaya.
When US submarines become involved, the base functions as a minor forward operations base - not a major base in any way.
Also http://www.steelnavy.com/images/2004July/Soerabaja 2RvO.JPG looks rather small.
Seems to me a size 2 or 3 would be much more accurate. A size 3 naval base allows 9 (3 subs per flottila) submarines to be repaired at full speed. Keeping in mind the small size of the Dutch navy, that would be sufficient.
http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/
On this site there are some articles about ships that were constructed (or just maintained) in Soerabaja. Most of them weren't regular ships. Most of them minelayers, minesweepers, gunboats, armed merchants, and similar ships. Soerabaja was regarded as the finest base in the NEI, and so it's only logical they'd have the ability to handle any ship the Dutch had. The Dutch could service their light cruisers there. The base was also going to be refitted to service the three Battlecruisers, or even the older Battleships, had they been constructed. Although that says Soerabaja was not large enough at the time to handle those ships, it did show the willingness to accomodate large ships (except from liberal politicians. I believe they would have skimped on even the coast guard in the name of "cutting spending"). And also that it could be done just as easy.
On this site there are some articles about ships that were constructed (or just maintained) in Soerabaja. Most of them weren't regular ships. Most of them minelayers, minesweepers, gunboats, armed merchants, and similar ships. Soerabaja was regarded as the finest base in the NEI, and so it's only logical they'd have the ability to handle any ship the Dutch had. The Dutch could service their light cruisers there. The base was also going to be refitted to service the three Battlecruisers, or even the older Battleships, had they been constructed. Although that says Soerabaja was not large enough at the time to handle those ships, it did show the willingness to accomodate large ships (except from liberal politicians. I believe they would have skimped on even the coast guard in the name of "cutting spending"). And also that it could be done just as easy.
A size 1 naval base can repair every ship too, just one at a time. That prevents the base from being used to repair an entire fleet. In the '39 scenario the Dutch have only 9 ships/flottilas. With a size 7 naval base the entire fleet except for two ships can be repaired simultaneously. That doesn't seem realistic/historical to me.C&D said:
Also note that the Dutch light cruisers were only some 7000 tons max, other navies had 10,000 ton light cruisers.
Willingness alone doesn't increase the base' facilities, though.