Mekkah and Jerusalem!

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Wow...forgot entirely about this thread!

Originally posted by Lubricus
Nor, I'm not saying that. The basic tenets of their religion (one almighty god, the holy spirit etc.) are there, the elements gotten from pagan faiths form the daily practises of the newly converted. That's what causes all the different variations of the religion. Would you say that the Coptic Church, which shows clear elements of Eastern African spiritism, is not Christian? The Copts themselves certainly wouldn't.

Would i say they aren't? No. I'd say orthodox Roman Catholics aren't. I'm serious too. And I'm betting your thinking i'm crazy, but i'm not. I don't want to explain unless you want me to as i am likely to offend tons of RCs more than I already have.

 

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Originally posted by Arilou
The jews were certainly not a majority in Judea at the time, but they were AFAIK a significant minority (at least at the time of the Crusades)

But doesn't EU 2 take place after the Crusades?

 

[Norrefeldt]

This thread should perhaps go to the OT Forum by now?

 

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Originally posted by Arilou
The jews were certainly not a majority in Judea at the time, but they were AFAIK a significant minority (at least at the time of the Crusades)

In 1900 (after significant immigration) Jews represented 10% of the population of Jerusulem. The proportion overall in Judea was much smaller than that. In the Ottoman Empire as a whole, Jews represented 10% of the population, but were concentrated in different parts of the Empire, like Salonika and Alexandria.

 

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Originally posted by ImperiumDV
But doesn't EU 2 take place after the Crusades?

Jews were a minority in Palestine until mass imigration during WWII and after the state was created

 

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What about pre-69 AD.

 

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more religions/ethnicities should be ocnsidered in this game - where are the Kurds, Tibetans, Jews, Gypsy/Roma, Basques (well I guess Navarra, but the Spanish province that begins with an "Eus" should be the real home to the Basques.

c'mon let's get some real historical accuracy so we can then all go mess it up!

 

[unmerged(18031)]

Disclaimer: I am not a Muslim.

As Suleyman pointed out, the existence of the Kaaba is not essential to the practice of Islam. Muslims would continue to face Mecca while praying no matter what.

The important question is whether or not pilgrims on hajj will be given access to the city of Mecca. I would model this with an event asking the player whether they would like to allow or deny Muslims access to Mecca. The default choice should probably be denial of access, which will spawn monstrous revolts in the province every March and give all Islamic Arabian Peninsula nations a CB on the Christian holder of Mecca. Allowing Islamic nations access to Mecca should provide a considerable bonus to Innovativeness but RR should still be quite high. No matter how permissive the occupiers are, they will still ultimately be infidels on sacred ground.

If the Christians can hold Mecca despite all this, then Islam would by no means go away. Judaism struggled on in the face of the destruction of the Temple. Islamic judges would probably designate Medina as a temporary destination for pilgrims on hajj and the importance of retaking and holding Mecca would be enshrined in Islamic thought. Drop the yearly attacks from hajji, but keep RR in Mecca at a high level to simulate spontaneous Islamic crusades against Mecca and maintain the CBs on the Christian nation holding Mecca.

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by dahveed323
more religions/ethnicities should be ocnsidered in this game - where are the Kurds, Tibetans, Jews, Gypsy/Roma, Basques (well I guess Navarra, but the Spanish province that begins with an "Eus" should be the real home to the Basques.

c'mon let's get some real historical accuracy so we can then all go mess it up!

Eh, there *is* a Kurdish culture (at least in vanilla gC... Ak kounly has got it) Tibetans already has a state, jews and romani doesen't have majority in any province, basques already exist.

 

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Jews were a minority in Palestine until mass imigration during WWII and after the state was created

Perhaps but under the Ottoman Empire rule Jews were located throughout the Empire so we're really not sure about how many Jews were located in Judea. But I think that 10% of the Ottoman population was Jewish. But enough about that there has got to be a way to create some kind of mod for the Jewish religion.

 

[Yakman]

Back to the Mekkah question:

If Portugal or Spain [and maybe France, Venice?]takes Mekkah, they should be able to ransom it for the holy land, the way Albuquerque planned to do. This option should only be allowed before the Edict of Tolerance.

If they choose not to ransom it or another Christian country takes Mekkah, then all Islamic nations should receive a CB on the invader until they are expelled. Countries in the region [Mamelukes, Ottoman Empire, Aden, etc.] should receive free soldiers to fight for the liberation of Mekkah. Whoever takes the province back can get extra victory points and maybe a free "defender of the faith."

I think that is fair, doesn't overly disrupt the game [like eliminating Islam, as some people were suggesting], and doesn't make it overly complicated.

Agreement? Issues?

 

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Mekkah

Hi, everybody, I would like to thank the administrator that he accepted my registration. I have read your discussion about Mekkah and Kaaba, and with my full respect to all, I want to say that Islam is not some unique Faith presented for the first time by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who should, on that account, be called the founder of Islam. The Holy Qur’an, the Islamic Holy Scripture, makes it very clear that Islam, the complete submission to God, is the one and only one Faith consistently revealed by God to mankind from the very beginning of time. Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) among others are Prophets and Messengers of God who appeared at different times and places. They all propagated the same faith that is submitting to One God and doing good deed. They were submitters to God and not founders of faiths to be named after them. Each one of them reiterated the faith of his predecessor. Muhammad was the last Prophet and Messenger. God revived through Muhammad the same genuine faith which had been conveyed to all the Messengers before him. However, the original Message was not kept in its entirety. It was corrupted and split into various religions by people in different ages who indulged in interpolation and admixture. These alien elements were eliminated by God and Islamic Scripture in its pure and original form was submitted to mankind through Muhammad, the last Prophet and Messenger. The revelation Muhammad received from God is called Qur'an meaning the recited Book. The Qur’an was preserved word by word so that it should be a source of guidance to all mankind and for all times.Muhammad was borne in Mekkah, the Arabian peninsula, in the year 571 or the year of the Elephant. The Elephents used by Abraha, the Christian Abyssinian governor of Yemen Abyssinian army invaded Hijaz to destroy Kaaba but retreated in disarray from a place a few miles from Mekkah. This event was recorded in the Qur’an: "Don't you see how your Lord dealt with the companions of the Elephant? Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray? And He sent against them flights of Birds. Striking them with stones of baked clay. Then He made them like an empty field of stalks and straws" (Qur'an 105: 1-5). That mean Kaaba and Mekkah are protected by God not people.
. Jesus (peace be upon him) in the Qur’an
His Birth :
“Behold! The angels said: O’ Mary! Allah gives you the glad
tidings; a Word from Him (Allah): His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the hereafter and (of the company) of those nearest to Allah”. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity and he shall be righteous.”. “She said: O’ my Lord how shall I have a son when no man has touched me? He said: even so. Allah creates what He Wills when He has decreed a matter He says to it “Be” and will be”. “And Allah will teach him the Book and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel”. “And appoints him Messenger to the Children of Israel”.
Jesus Ascension to Heaven :“Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to myself and clear you (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme, I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith to the day of resurrection then shall you all return to me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute”.
Jesus Crucifixion : “That they say (boasting): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not nor crucified him. Only likeness of that was shown to them”

Thank you all.

 

[LlywelynII]

Stuff

Thank you all.[/B]

Well, this thread and mod have been dead for awhile, Mos, but you're welcome and welcome to the forum! If you're at all of an historical bent, there are a number of different threads for the AGCEEP project that could use more input from an Islamic perspective, especially those dealing with the Ottomans, the Mamluks, and fantasy Christian involvement in the Levant - be it by BYZ, HAB, VEN or POR.

In reply to your thoughts, though, with all due respect to the Prophet (and may peace be upon him,) the ur-Islam Gabriel told him existed at the earliest of times and was espoused by all the prophets (pbut) was quite obviously no longer practiced except accidentally by any of the People of the Book prior to his revelations and recitations. In this sense, the reemergence of Islam in its (well, supposedly) pure form really is the direct product of Muhammad (pbuh) and nearly every current Muslim follows a faith he may therefore be said to have founded, albeit that he merely returned the faith to its original.

It's an imprecision in language that leads to English speakers talking about the "Discovery of America," when the Amerinds had been here for millennia, or about Martin Luther as the "founder" of "Protestantism," despite the fact that Luther merely viewed himself as returning the Church to its earlier state of purity. Subsequent "Christian Churches" or "Churches of Christ" have attempted to go even further in this direction, despite the fact that the founder of Christianity as we know it was actually Paul, and not Christ.

In any case, while it's good to point out the actual nature of Muhammad (pbuh)'s revelations, do remember to cut the infidels some slack,
jay.

ps. On a side note, though I know it's heretical to mention it, you should keep in mind that the Quran we have was only codified under Omar and German philogists are looking at some old manuscripts from Yemen right now that differ noticibly from the finalized edition of the Quran.

 

[Garbon]

It's an imprecision in language that leads to English speakers talking about the "Discovery of America," when the Amerinds had been here for millennia, or about Martin Luther as the "founder" of "Protestantism," despite the fact that Luther merely viewed himself as returning the Church to its earlier state of purity. Subsequent "Christian Churches" or "Churches of Christ" have attempted to go even further in this direction, despite the fact that the founder of Christianity as we know it was actually Paul, and not Christ.

Its not really a limitation of english, per se, but rather that people have a tendency to overstate the importance of certain individuals.

 

[Osteles]

No, it is unfortunatly not possible to destory a province!

What I have in mind, are events for all the holy places

Mekkah, Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople, all connected to religion, IE, Chatolisism, Ortodox, and Islam.

If you do this, you should also include Alexandria and Antioch (it should be in aleppo) together with rome, jeru, and const these cities were the 5 original patriarchates of christianity and therefore are important as well.

 

[LlywelynII]

If you do this, you should also include Alexandria and Antioch (it should be in aleppo) together with rome, jeru, and const these cities were the 5 original patriarchates of christianity and therefore are important as well.

Not nearly so much - Catholics and Orthodox...ers maintained an unbroken string of patriarchs for these locations, even when they were forced into exile by local Muslim overlords. After Khalkedon (or was it Nikaia? In any case, the IV Ecumenical Council,) the majority of local believers were considered heretical and had their own (third) local patriarch as well.

Quite frankly, the real estate just didn't inspire anything near as much importance anymore, except to local nations - ie, it's plausible that "orthodox" Ethiopia should have a core or crusade event involving Alexandreia if it ever got strong enough; the Coptic Pope there provided all the abunas of the Ethiopian church for over a thousand years...

Antioch would be difficult to justify for anyone, though. Pace the ingame local culture, Syriacs were outnumbered 9:1 by 1300 by Arabs throughout the region, at least according to my googling on the subject, and there's not so much as a Syriac revolter state.

jay.