Copyright and the AAR

[Lord Durham]

Copyright resides with the originator of the material. If it resides on your hard drive, it's yours. Non-exclusive rights means that Paradox could use your material, but they would have to approach you first. If you wish to proceed to publication on your own, and cite any Paradox game as source material, then you would likely have to talk to them for permission.

As T_H has alluded, it's a grey area, and an area that hasn't been properly addressed or challenged (and yes, we disagree about the "implied non-exclusive copyright" ramifications -- but that's what friends are for... ). There are a few legal websites that have existing case studies.

frogbeastegg: Most publishing houses will accept unsolicited material. If it's a novel, they usually request a query first. A query gives them a good idea of what you are proposing. If they are interested, they'll generally ask for the first three chapters of the novel and a synopsis of the balance of the proposed book. Most publishing houses have web-sites that list their submission guidelines. Not all publishers require agents. Hope that helps.

 

[Alexandru H.]

When I started the LibrAARy for Historical Fiction (which will be resumed this summer after some months of inactivity), I had the same problem about publishing AARs on-line outside the bounds of this forum. I managed to get acceptance, by asking permission from the authors, without receiving, of course, full rights on the story. Your example is slightly different, though... Only PE's lawyer could know

 

[unmerged(16363)]

It would be nice if we could get an official response about this questions, just to solve the doubts presented here... but I'm sure the response is comming soon.

 

[Valdemar]

So far the answer has been short and precise (paraphrased): "we have the rights, we do not expect to use them, we have the rule to avoid US lawsuits, to us non-exclusive means that you can publish too, we have no sole rights, but we do have rights, and do not need to ask explicit permission to use material on this board."

I have however asked Johan for a look-see in the back offices exactly what they mean regarding AARs as the rule is mostly made for events mods and scrips. It is likely we will get a rulign, a letter of intent, but not a change of the rule

LD good to see you again

V

 

[richvh]

You might want to go to Baen's Bar http://www.baen.com/bar and get an opinion from an actual publisher. I don't think your story would fit into the Baen Books lineup - which is mostly military SF - but Baen authors regularly post snippets from their books on the Baen forums, which is somewhat comparable to your situation.

 

[CatKnight]

Hey guys:

I can't speak for Sweden or any other country, but in the United States I believe you'd be looking at this. (And since we're both signatories to the Berne Convention I would expect the UK to be similar.)

1. The copyright goes to the initial creator (in the case of works that are not 'for-hire') and is in effect upon creation, regardless of whether or not any copyright symbol or such is included in the work.

2. Copyright means the author has certain rights, and they start out as 'exclusive.' These rights are copying, distribution, creating derivative works, and displaying (or performing) the contents. Exclusive simply means the author is the only person who may do this.

3. From what I'm reading, Paradox is claiming a non-exclusive right. There is some question whether anything short of a direct signed contract allows this, but we'll say it does as this part of the argument's immaterial. Non-exclusive in this case means Paradox acquires all the rights listed above, but the author does not lose theirs.

Commentary: There are several valid reasons for this. Aside from what's been mentioned above, the reason most companies do this is because otherwise, in theory, the author could demand a licensing fee for publication of the material. Also, since an AAR is usually based on a Paradox game, they're simply protecting their interests in said game.

So far so good. Now, here's where it gets dicey.

4. Copyright laws only protect the *precise content of the materials*, and to the extent they're in fixed form. Theoretically, if you were to do a major revision (not minor corrections), then this question is moot. They are two separate documents - or, if you prefer, the new one is a derivative work of the former. Further, for example if you know what you want to do next in your story and haven't written it out yet, that's not protected.

This is important because the most important facet for historical writers is this: Facts are not copyrighted. The fact you write about 11th century Ulster, for example, does not in any way prohibit Paradox, myself, or any other soul from doing the same thing .... and with the same characters, to the extent they're based on history.

Therefore, Paradox doesn't need to get into a shooting match with anyone if they want to, for some reason, write a book. They CAN use your AAR for advertising, promotionals, and so on and so forth.

5. Paradox could not write a book based on your works and thus raid your royalties however, and this is why: As the exclusive rights holder, you are the ONLY one who may transfer rights to other parties. A non-exclusive rights holder may not do this. A publisher will require extensive rights to the book to cover their own tails, and you are the only person on the planet that can grant this. At absolute worst Paradox could publish it themselves.

I tend to think everyone's a little worried over nothing, personally. First, Paradox is not in the publishing business .... and they have no reason to grab an AAR and try to sell it. Honestly, it's not in their self interest: Can you imagine what would happen if word got out that they did take an AAR? These boards would effectively be over, and I think their customer base would suffer. It'd be suicide.

If you're worried - then just go through with the massive revisions you've been promising. That will establish your book as a completely separate entity with its own copyright.

I cannot speak for British law, much less Swedish... but in my educated-but-non-lawyer opinion, in the United States you would be in the clear.

 

[Valdemar]

CatKnight, nice summation, there is only one small problem...

PE is also a publishing house We just only see the games bit here

Though as you so correctly stated, PE only retains the rights to publish the content in here, not to reformat or edit it...

or alternatively, they could rewrite the whole thing based on your ideas, but they could do that anyway, getting "inspired" from what is posted here is hardly limited to PE nor covered by the user agreement

V

 

[The_Hawk]

Good points, on both counts. CatKnight, IMO the risk lies with 1) people who post exactly what they intend to submit for publication, or something which will largely resemble what they submit, and 2) people who might run into success with a game based, however loosely, on an AAR, and later find the exclusivity of their copyright challenged. Group 1 is in a dicey situation; Group 2 might be in a less dicey one. But the problem is that the only real way to find out for sure is to litigate the question, and lawyers as a group don't come cheap.

Additionally, Voshkod's point remains valid. Any publishing house is going to want their authors to have uncontested rights, and isn't going to be nearly so eager to pick up their work if they're not. If an author asserts that his or her rights are in the clear, and they turn out not to be, that's another direction from which one might catch a surprise lawsuit.

Of course, all of this is distant, sort of flighty hypothetical, but it's worth thinking (and asking) about now, for all you budding authors out there.

 

[frogbeastegg]

I have decided to play it safe; I have deleted all of my story. It's not exactly what I wanted to do, but I can't do anything that may make getting into print harder than it already will be.

Lord Durham that was (wil be) very helpful, thanks

Richch, thanks for the link, I will check it out.

 

[Valdemar]

No need to Frog, UNLESS your AAR is very close to what you wanted to publish

This situation is no different than the Harry Potter copies, or the tons of LOTR clones... you cannot prevent ppl from being "inspired" and in that lies the true Danger

PE poses no threat except that they might grap an AAR and publish it "AS IS" in which case it is hardly readabale, just look at the work Hawk had to do for FC

Which reminds me, Hawk, the FC still needs closure on Maria, are you going to get to it or not?

V

 

[Valdemar]

quick update, PE is still mulling it over, but Johan said this to clarify a bit:

<Valdemar> So where excactly does that leave the AAR writers? YOu have rights to their work, but cannot use it without their consent? And they cannot publish it without your consent because its a derivative? (of the game)
<Johan> yes

In regard to AARs and copyright, and in regard to AARs using the game as basis, and thus being a derivative of the games...

as official statement this will go into the rules of AARland:

"Anyone wishing to publish any story/aar influenced or based on our games, must have their publisher get in contact with our licensing manager, fred@paradoxplaza.com"

More will likely follow, the main issue being the protection of the PE copyrights for the game, thus any AAR that is based on a game will in theory be derivative of the game, and thus infringing the PE licenses if published

V

 

[richvh]

Richch, thanks for the link, I will check it out.

I'd suggest posting in the Publisher's Podium forum at Baen's Bar.

 

[CatKnight]

Hey folks:

Valdemar: Paradox does publish? Well, live and learn.

In general principle I wonder if the derivative-of-game argument is a little shaky though. For example any screenies and of course any direct reference to game play is certainly copyrighted. A publisher wouldn't want it anyway.

(example: I go from Santee to Carolina with 10,000 men and attack the British outpost there.)

Also, many AARs follow a narrative point of view. I think these AARs would face challenges ... though again, no one would publish them anyway.

(example: In 1517 we had a Good Year, which gave King John III the ducats he needed to raise an army and invade Flanders in 1519. The war raged for three years with Flanders finally paying 150 ducats indemnity.)

Then we have the stories. Frog: Believe me, I understand how you feel. The reason I tried to learn about copyright law is I am quite proud of what I write and paranoid about it .... and you were never in danger of yours being a derivative of the game. In fact, you openly broke with the game material. You let us know a siege took years to complete, whereas your characters were quite busy during that time. Assuming you took out everyone's comments, no one would assume that you were playing a CK game... and that's where I personally would draw the line. "Is it obvious to my readers I'm playing a game, or not?" Yours was a work of fiction, not an AAR.

So, you were safe from the derivative question. Yes, PE could use it (in its current form) for advertising, but you could certainly publish it.

Now, an interesting question was raised about the author not having shared rights elsewhere, and you would definitely want to talk to the publishers. However, again - if you make substantial changes, then you are safe. It is a seperate work, with a seperate copyright. You can certainly make a derivative of your own work, and the rights of a third party wouldn't transfer. If in doubt, honesty helps: "I shared a very early version of this work with others. If you have any questions I can show you that copy." If you do pursue the publisher's forum mentioned, they can help you there.

Hawk - I tend to agree with you. No one should be posting anything that's very close to final form....ANYWHERE....and honestly nothing here is. No matter how brilliant the writer or careful the prose, this kind of serial posting is simply structured differently than a book. Not to mention the edits and such. These forums are a great place to practice writing, maybe get some neat ideas to pursue, and perhaps look at what you might like to do with a story...but it shouldn't be the final product. (I certainly agree litigating a copyright question is expensive and beyond annoying.)

 

[Lord Durham]

Hey folks:

These forums are a great place to practice writing, maybe get some neat ideas to pursue, and perhaps look at what you might like to do with a story...but it shouldn't be the final product.

I most definitely agree. The serial nature of posting AARs in these forums has been covered nicely by Secret Master in The SolAARium.

Nice work summing up the pros & cons, CatKnight.

richvh: Baen's Bar has a lot going for it -- specifically Eric Flint's little corner. I hope to contribute there in the near future after I finish up some other projects.

frogbeastegg: You're welcome. A good website for tracking publishers and magazines is www.ralan.com . Another is www.speculations.com . You should be aware that the 'historical' market is very, very thin.

 

[richvh]

You might want to go to Baen's Bar http://www.baen.com/bar and get an opinion from an actual publisher. I don't think your story would fit into the Baen Books lineup - which is mostly military SF - but Baen authors regularly post snippets from their books on the Baen forums, which is somewhat comparable to your situation.

Oops, that link is old (I've been using the NNTP access through the Sector14 mirror too long). The correct link is
http://bar.baen.com.

 

[Storey]

Hawk - I tend to agree with you. No one should be posting anything that's very close to final form....ANYWHERE....and honestly nothing here is. No matter how brilliant the writer or careful the prose, this kind of serial posting is simply structured differently than a book. Not to mention the edits and such. These forums are a great place to practice writing, maybe get some neat ideas to pursue, and perhaps look at what you might like to do with a story...but it shouldn't be the final product. (I certainly agree litigating a copyright question is expensive and beyond annoying.)

You're quite right CatKnight. Of the 1-2 hundred AARs I've read here there are only a handful that I would say were anywhere near to the stage of thinking of publishing. Most would require a massive rewrite that would little resemble the original. The greater concern is if the writer has an original idea that someone else might take and get published, again not likely. Frankly I think this is much ado about nothing but then I don't think of myself as a professional writer, which has a lot to do with my attitude. If you stop to think about it letting a game determine the dramatic impetus for the story is not the making of a great novel. Use this forum as a practice arena and keep your budding novels on your home computer and all will be well.


Good luck in whatever you decide frogbeastegg. I enjoyed reading your story.

Joe

 

[frogbeastegg]

richvh, I found the new log in area after a bit of hunting around; the guest log in doesn't work, so I created a new account under 'frogbeastegg'. I am still waiting on the email telling me my password, it's been nearly 5 hours now. I'll start thinking something is broke if the email hasn't materialised by this evening.

CatKnight, while I did break with the game I didn't do nearly as much as I wanted; I wanted Mael-Isu to get in the Sigtryg/Aed coalition and attack Culad, but because of how the game works I couldn't do that. Mael-Isu was left standing about like a spare chair looking a bit silly. That is just one of many, many problems that stemmed from the game origins; now I am rewriting this those problems are being solved.

Even if I continued writing and posting my AAR it would be too different from what I have in mind for the book; the need to cleave to some parts of the game and to inject historical accuracy was holding me back. As Storey said "letting a game determine the dramatic impetus for the story is not the making of a great novel.". Many people commented on my relentless posting pace; if I had writen the story I have in mind and posted at that pace there would have been a new part of 5 pages every day for a year.

Lord Durham, thanks for the links. Well...my plan has altered very slightly, Red Hand is now set in a world of my own creation, so it is semi-fantasy; I refuse to allow magic or any other fantasy junk through the door though. Everyone may reject it, but I have to try. At the very worst I can come back here and post a completed manuscript so my readers can find out what happened.

By the way I appreciate you coming back to contribute to this topic

Storey, thanks.

 

[Storey]

At the very worst I can come back here and post a completed manuscript so my readers can find out what happened.

That would be very nice but I hope it gets published and I have to pay to read it.

Joe

 

[coz1]

Let me second Storey! It would be my pleasure.

I would also like to agree with CatKnight that though AARland offers a wonderful place to practice the craft, publishable stories should be written above and beyond the work done here. In fact, it offers the best of both worlds. Work on the problems here (we won't mind ) and then put it together for mass consumption. I'm sure we will all buy since we would have a rather good idea what our purchase would yield.

 

[unmerged(10301)]

frogbeastegg - Copyright law, in general, is very complicated, and unless anyone here is a copyright lawyer, I would strongly advise you to seek one out for at least a consultation before seeking a house for your manuscript.

That said, I should make two quick points:

1) With regard to CatKnight's posts about revisions, it may well be that a thoroughly revised manuscript is in fact a separate document, but it is certainly a derivative work of any earlier version, and that means that any party with any right, title, or interest in any of those earlier versions becomes part of what is called the "chain of title," which must be cleared before exploiting the final work. For instance, Tom Clancy could not do a major "revision" of The Hunt for Red October, then sell the revision to another publishing house without the permission of the original publisher.

2) No matter what right Paradox may claim in your work, keep in mind that everything is negotiable. Were you to place your manuscript with a publisher, it would be a relatively simple matter for that publisher to negotiate a quitclaim with Paradox, which may or may not include some amount of money, some credit to Paradox or the game, et cetera. Fortunately, Paradox has provided you with contact information for their licensing manager (post #31, above), which is the person your publisher would need to contact. A publisher would certainly ask you to warrant and represent that all right, title, and interest to your work was unencumbered, which, sad to say, it is not.

Although not a copyright lawyer, I do have professional experience in this area, and I would be happy to discuss this with you further via PM (or even telephone) if you would like.