Copyright and the AAR

[CatKnight]

Valdemar's right.

The exclusivity absolutely applies to scripting, modding, or anything else directly related to the Paradox game engine. Discussions about game play, game rules, bugs and so forth are also covered. These are all derivatives of Paradox's work. Remember those are parts of the forum also.

As for AARs....no. That is more of a literary work and meets different criteria (dependent on how closely the AAR followed game play. For example, any EU2 screenies would not be protected, nor such statements as "In 1498 the Treaty of Tordesillas event fired.") I think you would find that if anyone claimed exclusivity on a work of fiction without a signed contract, then that claim would be overruled and the offending rule declared illegal.

AARs are not covered under 'works for hire,' and the writer is not being compensated other than posting rights, so the terms of a binding contract have not been fulfilled. Therefore, without such a signed declaration any attempt to transfer exclusive rights is unenforceable.

As Valdemar says though, this does not appear to be Paradox's contention so there's little use in worrying about an issue that's not an issue.

And again, the golden rule: If you care about your works' rights - if you plan to do something with it such as publication - then for God's sake don't put it on a public board!

 

[Lord Durham]

Hmm. The contents of my original post appear to have been glossed over or ignored... so let's try again...

An AAR is the Intellectual Property of the author, regardless of what PE's copyright rules say. That is why they have added the caveat that AARs have non-exclusive rights. So long as the source material resides on your hard drive, and you haven't been paid for its sale, it's yours.

That being said, there are certain safeguards you have to watch out for. Many magazines or publishing houses will not consider manuscripts that have been posted to another medium. This includes a forum like this, or even a personal website. Even critiquing forums are subject to this roadblock if their ownership rules are vague enough.

Rights come in several forms:

All Rights: The publisher purchases all rights to your material. You no longer have the right to sell or reproduce it.

First Rights: A publishers acquires the rights to publish your work for the first time. After that the rights revert to you, and you are free to publish them elsewhere.

First North American Serial Rights: Like above, but is restricted to Canada & the US. You retain NA reprint rights and the first rights to a foreign market.

One-Time Rights: The publisher buys the rights to use your work once, then it reverts to you. In this case your work may have been previously published.

Reprint Rights: A magazine may republish a piece that previously appeared in its pages, or publish it elsewhere (like an anthology).

Electronic Rights: The right for a magazine to publish on the World Wide Web., etc.

Works-Made-For-Hire: Commissioned works solicited by a publisher or magazine. The author loses all rights to his work after he/she is paid for it.

If PE wishes to use your material they would have to make an arrangement with you. If you wished to use your posted material as is, then you would have to make an arrangement with them.

Very little that has been posted here is publishable, anyway -- even my overlooked Norman Knights is basically a rough draft. That being said, ideas can't be copyrighted, so nothing is stopping you from taking your work and revisioning it into something that is marketable. Just don't tie it into the Paradox game world -- especially since they haven't shown any interest.

For further reading, try this website: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/internet.html

Even though it's based in California, and is written in a lot of legalise, it covers an awful lot of internet law -- or lack thereof.

Cheers,
LD

 

[Eber]

This is the main reason why I am writing a completely separate book from anything I write here. My AARs here are just for enjoyment and relaxation from the book I am writing (about the Knights Templar).

I believe what Johan said is what all of you should listen to. If you do have any questions, personally email or PM them. No need to try and create a big fuss over something that is rather small.

Just my two cents.

 

[Valdemar]

Thanks LD

As I said before, the main issue for Paradox is that the AARs are in a CopyRight sense derivatives of the games, and games material, they cannot relinguish them without jeopardizing their licnesing rights to other games stuff, simply because a clever lawyer would argue that if one thing is relinguished, then the next thing should too, and so on.. in effect watering down their rights over time,

So in short, PE needs to negotiate each and every release one by one, hence the contact mail I posted earlier

V

 

[dag231]

Just came across this thread, thanks to a personal discussion about copyrights...

From what I gather, PE owns copyright over any game or game derivative item, while the writer of the original material owns the copyright over anything else.

As an example....

"You invaded Switzerland because you wanted the manpower and the industrial capacity."​

This is clearly a reference to in-game elements, and as such, PE owns the rights...

"You invaded Switzerland because you cant stand neutral countries."​

The writer retains the rights to the above, because it clearly is not referring to any in-game elements...


This came up after a conversation where I showed some of Guderian to a fellow writer, who thought it might be a damn good short story (and, as an aside, have thought that there is a solid novel about Guderian lurking on the horizon), and I was wondering about the rights, etc.

From my point of view - and if any PE lawyer types are reading and want to set me straight on this - anything that deals in a strict story like sense, and doesn’t include in-game elements or derivatives thereof, is fair game to be shopped around. Any narrative of the game is not eligible to be shopped around, as PE owns the rights on such derivative elements.

 

[The_Hawk]

From what I gather, PE owns copyright over any game or game derivative item, while the writer of the original material owns the copyright over anything else.

Funny I should happen along just when this thread, that I commented on years ago, gets resurrected.

What you say may be PE's position on the issue, but it's not what the copyright agreement says (and were I a publisher, I doubt I'd be satisfied with claims made by PE employees in a thread like this one.) Skimming back over my earlier comments on this topic, I don't see as the situation has changed much -- you may never actually have a problem with Paradox's copyright, but you entertain a higher level of risk by having your rights encumbered by previous publication. Without wanting to rehash in detail what was said here previously, I think CatKnight's quote remains the safest position:

And again, the golden rule: If you care about your works' rights - if you plan to do something with it such as publication - then for God's sake don't put it on a public board!

 

[dag231]

Funny I should happen along just when this thread, that I commented on years ago, gets resurrected.

What you say may be PE's position on the issue, but it's not what the copyright agreement says (and were I a publisher, I doubt I'd be satisfied with claims made by PE employees in a thread like this one.) Skimming back over my earlier comments on this topic, I don't see as the situation has changed much -- you may never actually have a problem with Paradox's copyright, but you entertain a higher level of risk by having your rights encumbered by previous publication. Without wanting to rehash in detail what was said here previously, I think CatKnight's quote remains the safest position:

True... but that is, of course, after the fact. A lot of people who write AARs are those who view writing either as a good diversion or as a hobby, but may find that they can write damn well, and that the topic of an AAR that they wrote, or a character therein, is worthy of a larger audience. PE can not, for example, claim first serial rights for anything written on the board without first negotiating with the original writer - I am fairly certain of this. The reverse is true as well - a writer can not sell a story that specifically mentions a PE property or in-game derivative (industrial capacity, manpower, etc).

Using myself as an example, I could easily condense the last night of Guderian's life from the 30k or so it is now to a clean and tight 10k short story, removing any in-game reference and claim it as my own. Because it is my own. The fact that a game of PE was the muse of the story is legally irrelevant. As long as I dont refer to any in-game elements, I should be fine. I am not sure if I will walk down this path (as I have a few dozen other things I want to explore first), but if I were to take the time, I dont think PE should have any complaints or copyright issues as long as I remove all in-game elements, as I have mentioned...

As an aside, if I were to pop off an alternative history using Guderian as a base and make it into a novel, I would acknowledge the greatness that is Hearts of Iron II as the muse - but I have that luxury of having a foreword where I can tell the viewers how the story came into being.

In a nutshell, Lord Durham pins in down:

Very little that has been posted here is publishable, anyway... That being said, ideas can't be copyrighted, so nothing is stopping you from taking your work and revisioning it into something that is marketable. Just don't tie it into the Paradox game world

If you have something that you think could be publishable, then fix it up, remove the Paradox game references and send it out.

Anyways... didnt want to resurrect this thread to make a huge discussion, just thought that others might have the same questions as I did, and were like me in not being aware that this thread even existed...

Personally, this thread should be stickied...

 

[unmerged(51967)]

I don't think they'd be too fussed if you made a book based on an AAR you did.

They might very well be fussed if it had game concepts/screenshots in it.

Besides, a book based too heavily on a gameplay AAR you might have done would be rather... poor in response to people buying it. I mean a novel is much different from an AAR, you'd have to rewrite a lot of it if it was gameplay and even rewrite quite a large chunk of it if you had a written AAR.

For example, i'm writing a greek doomsday aar. If i could write well enough i might be thinking of expanding to write a few books based on the same kind of scenario.
If you talk in divisions and provinces and game designs, October the 2nd and countries swapping sides the same way... i'm not sure it would sell with the game factors, and PE might take a bit of a stab at you for that.
If you were just having a standard 'world war 3 scenario' which would most likely be different date/style just to suit your storyline. It would nice to make an acknowledgement to say your inspiration came from this game, but again i think you'd need to change it so much it would be outside copyright to try and make a successful enough novel out of it.

 

[CatKnight]

The big problem is the editor you're trying to sell it too WOULD be fussed.

Unless you pretty much start from scratch (Trib's WW III scenario for example) any rewrites you do is a derivative of the first work. Now as the author and copyright holder you certainly have the right, but if the editor finds out this is a derivative of something posted publicly (and thus encumbered by your relations with Paradox) its value is going to dip sharply.

(And just to cut off the obvious response, if the editor finds out you lied about something like previous encumberances, good luck getting anything published. Ever.)

A good author will use ANYTHING for inspiration - even PC games. Once you hit 'send' though, don't expect to add it to your writing credentials.

My advice from three years ago remains. If you think you're going to do something with it, then don't post it here. This is a place to write as a hobby, to write for friends, even to 'cut your teeth' and practice. This is not a place for a rough draft.

 

[dag231]

The big problem is the editor you're trying to sell it too WOULD be fussed.

Unless you pretty much start from scratch (Trib's WW III scenario for example) any rewrites you do is a derivative of the first work. Now as the author and copyright holder you certainly have the right, but if the editor finds out this is a derivative of something posted publicly (and thus encumbered by your relations with Paradox) its value is going to dip sharply.

(And just to cut off the obvious response, if the editor finds out you lied about something like previous encumberances, good luck getting anything published. Ever.)

A good author will use ANYTHING for inspiration - even PC games. Once you hit 'send' though, don't expect to add it to your writing credentials.

My advice from three years ago remains. If you think you're going to do something with it, then don't post it here. This is a place to write as a hobby, to write for friends, even to 'cut your teeth' and practice. This is not a place for a rough draft.

Hmmmmm... assuming that anything posted on any forum is considered a "first draft" (as has been previously stated.

I have a lot of damn good first drafts over here that deserve a wider audience.

Assuming 500 words per update, and 30 updates - thats 15,000 word first draft... cut that in half, and you have a tight and trim 6k to 8k short story, that should be good enough to be shopped around.

When you pop it in the envelope and send it off to a publisher offering first north american serial rights (or whatever), the fact that it appeared in this forum is irrelevant as long as it doesnt contain any in-game references. The only time it would be relevant is if the publisher wanted to negotiate the electronic rights to your work, at which time you would have to tell them that a rough first draft of the piece appeared in this forum.

If you wanted to cover your bases, in any cover letter you could simply state that "a rough draft of the enclosed short story appeared in a web-based writer's forum"... which, essentially, this is. But again, this would be completely extraneous, unless you are negotiating electronic or web-based rights.

 

[The_Hawk]

When you pop it in the envelope and send it off to a publisher offering first north american serial rights (or whatever), the fact that it appeared in this forum is irrelevant as long as it doesnt contain any in-game references.

Again, that may be true from a purely copyright perspective (though the copyright notice doesn't agree), but that's probably not the standard to which the publisher is going to hold you. They're not going to ask "does someone else claim the copyright to this work?" because chances are you're not a lawyer (although again, PE employee caveats aside, by the terms of this forum's copyright, someone does). They're going to ask "has any of this been published before?" Unless you have actually rewritten it, rather than just gone through and edited out game references, the answer is yes -- as CatKnight points out, lying is a Bad Idea.

Copyrights aside, right there, that's probably a deal-breaker. The second you say that, a publisher has to get legal involved to check things out. Even if the lawyers give your work a thumbs-up (and were I they, I wouldn't), you're still talking about a few hundred, maybe a grand in legal legwork. Everything I've heard, and my own very limited exposure to the world of editing and publishing, would suggest that publishers operate on very narrow profit margins to begin with; they can't afford to spend hundreds on uncertainties when they have manuscripts without encumbrances coming in every day. It's just not worth it.

I hate to be so negative, but again, I think CatKnight's suggestion was good -- if you want something to have a real shot of getting published, don't put it up here, and if it already has been put up here, consider it honing your craft and write something else.

 

[dag231]

Again, that may be true from a purely copyright perspective (though the copyright notice doesn't agree), but that's probably not the standard to which the publisher is going to hold you. They're not going to ask "does someone else claim the copyright to this work?" because chances are you're not a lawyer (although again, PE employee caveats aside, by the terms of this forum's copyright, someone does). They're going to ask "has any of this been published before?" Unless you have actually rewritten it, rather than just gone through and edited out game references, the answer is yes -- as CatKnight points out, lying is a Bad Idea.

Copyrights aside, right there, that's probably a deal-breaker. The second you say that, a publisher has to get legal involved to check things out. Even if the lawyers give your work a thumbs-up (and were I they, I wouldn't), you're still talking about a few hundred, maybe a grand in legal legwork. Everything I've heard, and my own very limited exposure to the world of editing and publishing, would suggest that publishers operate on very narrow profit margins to begin with; they can't afford to spend hundreds on uncertainties when they have manuscripts without encumbrances coming in every day. It's just not worth it.

I hate to be so negative, but again, I think CatKnight's suggestion was good -- if you want something to have a real shot of getting published, don't put it up here, and if it already has been put up here, consider it honing your craft and write something else.

Putting it up on a writer's forum is an apple, while getting somethning published is an orange - two different things. This forum, while most excellent, is a writer's forum - it is not a publishing arm of a company. No consent is given to take any of the writings and publish them. The only encumberance that I can see in terms of PE copyright applies to any in-game elements. Gaiing Manpower. Industrial Capacity. Build Queques. That sort of thing.

As to just walking away from a good idea... writer's dont do that... If its a damn good idea, and worthy of an audience, then it should be presented to that audience. Any writer should take the first draft of what they have done, hone it, polish it to the point of shining, and then present it to the world.

 

[The_Hawk]

Putting it up on a writer's forum is an apple, while getting somethning published is an orange - two different things.

I'm using "publish" in the sense of "being made available to third parties for their consumption".

The only encumberance that I can see in terms of PE copyright applies to any in-game elements.

Again, we went around and around about this three years ago. I will merely quote a portion of the copyright notice...

All content posted on the message boards of Paradox is the exclusive intellectual property of Paradox. Copyright ownership resides in that content by Paradox and the Company is free to use any of the content as they wish.... By posting on the Paradox message boards you are agreeing to the above and relinquishing all copyright to the contents of the post(s) to Paradox.

That doesn't sound limited to in-game elements, to me, and the only thing that suggests as such is Havard's posts earlier in this thread. With all due respect to Havard, his posts here don't bind Paradox -- they could rescind his comments and alter their stance at any time. Are they going to? Probably not, but that doesn't change the analysis from the publisher's POV.

As to just walking away from a good idea... writer's dont do that...

I suspect that they do, but again, the point is that it's not the idea that's the issue, it's the expression of that idea. If you rewrite one of your works to such an extent that it's unrecognizable, then, sure, you're golden, but then you can legitimately answer "has this ever been published before?" with "no", and then you never get into what claims Paradox might or might not have.

 

[coz1]

Just to agree with Hawk here - if you post it here, consider it "published" just as he said. It has been made available publically, whether for profit or not for profit. A publisher is not likely to want to publish for profit something that may very well already be available (edits included) somewhere else for free.

dag - if you want to get published, find something to write that has never been posted here or anywhere else on the internet. That's the clearest advice anyone could give.

 

[dag231]

Just to agree with Hawk here - if you post it here, consider it "published" just as he said. It has been made available publically, whether for profit or not for profit. A publisher is not likely to want to publish for profit something that may very well already be available (edits included) somewhere else for free.

dag - if you want to get published, find something to write that has never been posted here or anywhere else on the internet. That's the clearest advice anyone could give.

Actually, from a legal standpoint (again, if there are any lawyers out there, feel free to chime in and correct me), I dont think it is. This is a "writer's forum", where people post their writings for public consumption without remuneration. Being posted here is not the same as being published. The only difference between here and other writer's boards is the inclusion of PE elements which they hold specific copyrights to and could claim damages for (again, industrial capacity).

Now, of course, anything posted here is, without question, unpublishable in its current form. Even the best narrative needs to be trimmed down considerably. That being said, after being trimmed down it is no longer the same as posted for free. A 20k AAR trimmed down to 5k is barely recognizable.

Would a publisher offer to buy a finished work that is available in draft form for free? Of course - if the publisher thinks that it would help sell issues of their magazine or anthology or newspaper. Even electronic or web-based rights would be available for purchase, as the finished 5k short story is not the same 20k first draft. Good writing and good stories (and I have seen quite a few pieces on these boards that scream out to be trimmed and put out for public consumption) are liquid ambrosia to any respectable publisher.

As for myself, as I have mentioned, the Guderian story trimmed down could be publishable, but its far down my list of priorities in terms of things I want the public to see... but,, as a writer - and a scot to boot - I dont toss away good ideas, as one never knows which one will catch a ride on the back of that comet called success...

 

[coz1]

We're just telling you what we've discussed in the past. And actually, The_Hawk is an attorney, IIRC. Once more - if you really want to get published, don't post it here. That's as clear as can be. You can argue the other points, and you may be right. But by not posting it here, you avoid any of those grey areas.

 

[dag231]

We're just telling you what we've discussed in the past. And actually, The_Hawk is an attorney, IIRC. Once more - if you really want to get published, don't post it here. That's as clear as can be. You can argue the other points, and you may be right. But by not posting it here, you avoid any of those grey areas.

Of course - the material that I personally want to find an audience will never end up here because the subject matter is not a derivative of any PE product... but I was initially more concerned about a specific piece (Guderian) and then general pieces that I have read on the boards that would make damn good stories, once they moved beyond the "first draft" (as posted) stage...

 

[The_Hawk]

And actually, The_Hawk is an attorney, IIRC.

You remember correctly, but one tries not to mention it in conversations like this one out of the vague fear of being taken to give legal advice. For the record -- none of the above should be construed as legal advice. Most everything I know about copyright was researched for discussions like this one, so I can claim no specialized knowledge in the area over and above, say, CatKnight, coz, or LD.