CK II - 1.05 Development Diary - 2 of 3 - April 6th 2012

[Snaake]

Okay, so I wrote a second post, to reply to some of the latest stuff (and combining them would've made one ... huge wall of text)

The problem I see with changing the change in De Jure from 100 to 400 years is that, like that, we would never get rid of the fantasy Kingdoms (like Bavaria, Frisia and Aquitania) that would be present from the start of the game, I'm afraid... the AI would be able to create them right until the end of the game.

Unless there is a way to eliminate those Kingdoms altogether, while also giving their De Jure provinces to the correct Kingdoms, of course.

Keep a copy of the 1.04 landed_titles.txt (and whatever other files may define de jure kingdoms, haven't really looked into modding in CK2) to overwrite the 1.05 one, in addition to changing the 1 value for time to change de jure? Should do the trick...

The problem is that people keep having in their minds the concept of the HRE as the weak and divided state that arouse from the Thirty Years War. That was not the previously the case. Has anybody actually noticed that the HRE always remained in existance, regardless of internal problems? Can anbody even quote ONE example of an "implosion" that utterly wrecked the HRE? I was a far more stable entity than what players, only thinking of the Empire of latter centuries, can bring themselves to admit.

I'm thinking more "less centralised and established state", same as for France, and most/every other (Christian?) Kingdom, as a stereotype of the early middle ages, actually. I doubt the HRE will really implode even with these changes.

I don't want the HRE to always turn into a hodgepodge of petty Germanic Kingdoms that would never, ever, be concievable, nor do I want to have NO reason whatsoever to go on a Crusade because I can conquer things and turn them into my De Jure land right in the heart of Western Christendom.

Or to see the rise of a Kingdom of Aquitania whose lords were never interested in (if anything could have been tried, would be the creation of a Kingdom of Occitania, and that right at the start of the game).

Regarding the hodgepodge - unlikely even with these games. At the very least, people always spray around the word "always" WAY too liberally in these sort of discussions. I've seen a Kingdom of Finland rule Norway, Finland and England though (Hardrada won, conquered Finland, and moved his Capital to Uusimaa for some reason - yay for Helsinki!), so anything is possible of course. Regarding reasons to go on crusade, how about gaining an entire new Kingdom that way? Not to mention the current incentives of piety, prestige, the crusader trait, and church opinions during the crusade - and after, due to the trait. And under the new system the most likely scenario for Aquitaine (the kingdom of which may be named/modded to be Occitania, so that concern is utterly trivial) indeed should be that either it forms early, or it gets assimilated into France anyway.

Fact is, you didn't read anything I wrote before and still have *no idea* of what the De Jure system was. Like I said multiple times, it was meant to crystallize Kingdoms in Western Christendom, exactly to force Catholic rulers to seek new Crowns in the lands of the heathens/infidels. Thus enabling the Crusades.

This is what the real-life medieval de jure system pushed by the Papacy was. The in-game system is a game mechanic meant to help in moving the game forward in a plausible manner (for some value of plausible), that draws inspiration from the real-life de jure system. In my opinion, not even only from that, but also from the legal customs in use in said area etc., but I don't think we have any "Word of God" (=Dev) comments on this.

A example on how monarchies take the issue seriously can be seen in the UK: has anyone noticed that Scotland, even today, isn't De Jure part of England? If you sign a contract in Scotland today and later want it annulled, don't go to London for it - the courts there will say it was made under Scottish Law and that they, being English, have no jurisdiction over it, they only handle English Law. You have to handle contracts done in De Jure Scotland in Scotland, you can't deal with that in De Jure England.

This is an ironic example to me, since to me it just says that the law is different in different de jure kingdoms, which is also in the game. Nothing about the Papacy attempting to encourage peaces within Christian Kingdoms.

 

[Baneslave]

Fact is, you didn't read anything I wrote before and still have *no idea* of what the De Jure system was. Like I said multiple times, it was meant to crystallize Kingdoms in Western Christendom, exactly to force Catholic rulers to seek new Crowns in the lands of the heathens/infidels. Thus enabling the Crusades.

So, the appearance of the Kingdom of Jerusalem is a *triumph* of the De Jure system, as it is a successful consequence of making Catholic rulers carve a new Kingdom in lands outside Western Europe.

Now, if Catholics suddenly become able to carve crowns right in their doorstep in Western Europe, WHAT incentive, pray tell, is there for them to go fight the powerful Muslims in the Middle East to get new lands?

What stops Finland from conquering the world? All other nations (and drunken knife fights).

I am not saying that it should be easy. Serious prestige and piety should be needed and neighboring kingdoms should be against it (free CB), but if one can deal with it, kingdom is yours.

And are you seriously saying that during medieval times not single county, duchy, kingdom or empire did have some kind of border change that was accepted as "de jure", because it was not the situation in 1066?

 

[khedas]

It is still debated among Croatian and Hungarian historians whether Medieval Slavonia (now in eastern Croatia) was de iure a part of Hungary or Croatia and the issue has not been settled yet. I'm sure there were and are such regions still. One could argue that the de iure status of Lorraine an Alsace (or is it Lothringen and Elsass? ) is still not entirely clear.

The areas closer to the Orthodox regions were harder to determine, because they were not necessarily always under Catholic rulers.

And the argument about Lorraine is no argument at all. It was De Jure parte of the Empire. So much so, that Joan of Arc (a rabid French patriot) was from Lorraine, and when she left Robert de Baudricout's castle to go and join the Dauphin at Chinon Castle, she was asked "where are you going?" and she replied: "to France".

Lorraine grew in importante in international affairs when it became De Facto independent in 1542 (the reformation made Charles V renounce its overlordship of the Duchy), and its only became part of France when, in 1738 and in exchange for the acceptance of the Archduchess Mary Therese as Austrian Empress, the Emperor [and Duke of Lorraine] ceded his Duchy to the Kingdom of France.

Dynastic politics in a non-medieval era, really.

Thing is, what we now percieve as the de iure borders of that time are just that: our perceptions, based on the outcomes that happened. Had John won the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, then half of France might have become the de iure part of England.

No, it couldn't. Ever. The English could not change De Jure borders no matter what, exactly the same way they did not change Scotland's De Jure borders. Battle results are irrevelant.

And the 'fading memory' you mention is actually that of the Papacy... you know, that institution that exists for over 1700 years and is anal about keeping records, being, even today, the last remaining institution of the Roman Empire? Rome doesn't let anything be forgotten unless it is in it's interest to do so.

 

[Snaake]

Just a quick btw still, that at least in the 1st 1.05 dev diary, a screenshot shows a King of Cyprus as well as a King of Naples participating in a crusade, so it seems these will be in as well (or at least are in in their internal testing version). Probably as titular titles. Or have I missed something (always starting from 1066), and they're already in the game?

 

[khedas]

Wow, lots of good posts and I can't keep up it with all. Will try later.

Keep a copy of the 1.04 landed_titles.txt (and whatever other files may define de jure kingdoms, haven't really looked into modding in CK2) to overwrite the 1.05 one, in addition to changing the 1 value for time to change de jure? Should do the trick...

Thanks for the tip, Snaake. I will certainly try to get help to keep things more straight.

Though I do agree with some plausible Kingdoms, like Occitania (when it was tried IRL it was too late; all heretics, Excommunication, Crusade, utterly crushed...) or the Papacy.

Be back later.

 

[MrFreeze]

Sounds great, can't wait to know more about the third content of the next patch. I refrain myself to start another campaign until the v1.05

 

[Saulot]

Good thing that, in 1066, the Duke of Bohemia also happens to be the King of Bohemia.

Was that changed in a patch? I don't remember it being like that at release, which was the last time I took Bohemia for a spin.

 

[khedas]

Not to say he doesn't raise good points, but I for one don't view the de jure kingdoms thing as purely defined by what the Pope (attempted to) set in stone. I prefer the idea that was stated even earlier in this thread, that it's about which (crown) law applies where: if Normandy is assimilated into England, it means (among other things) that English law now holds more power there than French law.

Which was also one of my beefs with it. As I noted with the Scotland/England example, crown laws are always different between Kingdoms (this was also true for other Kings that held multiple Crowns), even if many centuries pass. Even today the UK has to change legislation Kingdom by Kingdom. It is changing a key cornerstone of the society of the era.

I'm also annoyed with Galicia being De Jure, as that Kingdom was specifically created at the time to be just a placeholder so that all the Jimena brothers could start in an equal footing, and then see who came out on top. It was never meant to last long, not even by the people who created it. It should remain just as a title that goes away when the land is all conquered, as it was historically even before we press the 'play' button. Also, since land is needed for De Jure Portugal, what De Jure territory does that leave Galicia with? Two counties!

In addition, I fear Brittany will become a true kingdom easily, and will in fact become vulnerable for it, as they swore fealty to France or England when those powers were strong, and that kept them alive. If Brittany somehow manages to be a 'true' King (and a second duchy is easy to come by), they'll never be able to use that tactic.

That being said, there's several things that can still swing this either way for both groups (fans of static/dynamic de jure). Perhaps the greatest is the ability to mod this with a simple defines.lua value (time_to_switch_de_jure?), but others definitely include:
- Can titular kingdom titles become de jure and vice versa?
- Is the change automatic, a MTTH event (REALLY hope it's not), or a decision in the intrigue/de jure title screen (the one with create, usurp etc.). If anything else than automatic, and even then, who's to say that it won't eg. cause opinion penalties with the Pope/former de jure liege (if he exists) and maybe de facto liege, cost gold/piety/prestige, require geographical contiguity/appropriate culture, or grant the former de jure liege a claim to said duchy (again, if he exists)? Not to mention that hopefully/probably any of these combinations can be modded.
- Likewise for creating eg. the Kingdom of Bavaria: it could have vast consequences, such as giving the HRE claims to the duchies in it, possibly even a chance to start a "War of Imperial disapproval over the formation of the Kingdom of Bavaria" (although that exact name is probably too long), that causes the king title to be un-created, and him stripping you of those duchy titles, since you're a filthy traitor.

Finally, I'd like to say that people are stressing too much about this 1.05, especially whether the exact mix of Kingdoms, their balance effects etc. are going to turn out ok. It's Patch 1.05 people, not the penultimate version after which Paradox is going to stop patches and disable modding. Given the current rate of patching and the balance changes therein (a small example being the constantly-shifting status of Brittany) I have no doubt that this feature will be continued to be tuned as well. And if you're really inpatient, minor modding should help meanwhile

I agree with all you said, and would indeed love a way to mod my game (some of the proposed Kingdoms are plausible, like Naples and Cyprus, but many are pure fantasy of modern people, who want to play 'their' favourite Kingdom, even if some eight centuries early. I wouldn't be surprised if demands for a Kingdom of Prussia start to appear).

I'm thinking more "less centralised and established state", same as for France, and most/every other (Christian?) Kingdom, as a stereotype of the early middle ages, actually. I doubt the HRE will really implode even with these changes.

Indeed, less centralization (i.e. lower CA) is probably the best way to reflect reality. That said, I'm currently playing in the HRE, and by the mid-XIVth century CA is Limited, never having raised higher than Medium. Too many changes of Emperor. And I've even been sitting all the wars out myself, too busy accumulating duchies through marriage [and a Holy War to get the Muslims out of Rome, Orvietto and Ortobello].

And under the new system the most likely scenario for Aquitaine (the kingdom of which may be named/modded to be Occitania, so that concern is utterly trivial) indeed should be that either it forms early, or it gets assimilated into France anyway.

Note that the differente between Aquitane and Occitane is not trivial at all. Aquitania is only a fraction of Occitania, which stretches all the way to Nice.

Here is a map of Occitania (names in Occitan):

The advantage of such a Kingdom is that, while being plausible, is also means that the Duke of Aquitaine would not be able to declare himself King with ease.

What stops Finland from conquering the world? All other nations (and drunken knife fights).

The Dynastic system. Ditto for all other Kingdoms.

Note that you are playing characters in a dynasty. Even if you conquer lands, when they are outside your De Jure area, they are from another Kingdom and remain so (and you'll probably use their levies for your conquests). Even if you have 'Finland' all over the political map, in reality Finland remains that tiny land up in the North. The other states remain intact - they just so happen to be ultimately ruled by someone that insists in keeping the title 'King of Finland' as its primary title. Change it to another of your crowns, and you'll see the political map colour and name change from Finland to whatever other Kingdom you choose.

Also, with such a large Empire, odds are your heirs would start to marry/be born/educated outside Finland. You'll pretty much end up with non-Finns also ruling the 'Finnish Empire'. At which point one wonders... who conquered what? This era (and the game) is about the dynasty, not nations.

I had thid issue in my England game. Married so much into France that I owned most of it, but my greatgrandsons started to become Frankish... in due time, my monarchs were French, getting the 'foreigner' penalty with my English vassals. Which poses the question... who conquered who, exactly?

(the answer is: my dynasty. And nobody else. Another branch also became Kings of Scotland without me doing anything about it, so we were big indeed in the dynasty map, even though I did not rule all that territory myself.)

And are you seriously saying that during medieval times not single county, duchy, kingdom or empire did have some kind of border change that was accepted as "de jure", because it was not the situation in 1066?

With the exception of Pomerania and other lands captured from non-Catholics, most changes were of Kingdoms that were already integrated by 1054 - like the Kingdom of Arelat. Even if it was part of the Empire since 1030, it was still a big deal when it was officially gone. The existing Kingdoms in Western Christendom remained intact, true border changes started after 1453.

(Which is why you can recognize many of those countries, since they still exist today. How many of the Muslim states can you recognize?)

Take this example: Ireland was never a De Jure Kingdom, especially since it did not unify itself. That allowed England to invade the Island and start conquering without legal problems. The English ruled many Irish Duchies [especially Dublin] for many centuries.

How much Irish land became De Jure England? NONE.

 

[RedRooster81]

Good points, khedas. I think that the kingdom of Aquitaine is a good idea. I do not like the idea either of automatically integrating other kingdoms after 100 years. Maybe there will be an option to do it by event instead? We'll see.

 

[Hamanu]

Maybe it should just be optional, a game setting since we won't agree on the matter 'till hell freezes over. I like the concept but I recognize why some of you are opposed to it.

I could cite examples from South eastern Europe or Venice, you'd stick with Ireland and Scotland and we'd get nowhere

 

[Razalhague]

How about making the rigidity of the de jure system depend on the moral authority of the pope? If the authority is high, catholics wouldn't be able to create the less plausible kingdoms, and assimilation of duchies that de jure belong to kingdoms held by other catholics would be very slow.

 

[lordreaven448]

I think everyone forgot the most important question.

Will we get new flag avatars?

 

[Orinsul]

Will the Rum Sultanate be one of the creatable titulars? as it seems an obvious one thatd need to be.

 

[unmerged(474593)]

Sorry if this has been asked before but is patch 1.05 Save game compatible?

 

[Orinsul]

Sorry if this has been asked before but is patch 1.05 Save game compatible?

With the huge number of changes id strongly suspect not.

 

[Arko]

I think everyone forgot the most important question.

Will we get new flag avatars?

+1

 

[DominusNovus]

We also introduced the concept of creating titular titles, if you hold the scripted capital. Titular titles are more expensive to create than titles that have land already de-jure to them. This means that you can now create the Kingdom of Venice if you so desire..

Ahem...

mutter mutter.