A small map look update

[Nuril]

I don't think you understand that the word "standard" in this context refers to a type of flag. And considering your argument rests solely on being some kind of historical purist, then why not argue against the notion of Byzantium having a flag at all, hmm? Because perhaps such a suggestion would make your argument seem quite silly, similar to the argument you're making now for some kind of purist attachment to purple which you haven't been able to back up by your own admission.

Right, so you're just going to call me a doodoo-head and say you're right by default? I didn't say I was a "purist", not that that's a bad thing in a freaking history-game, I just asked why you thought it to be more historically founded when Purple is so clearly associated with the Empire in many different ways and all you keep bringing up is a military standard and ignoring why they displayed a host of different colours on them apart from the Imperial Purple itself. Then again I'm sure you think it was just some big coincidence that whenever someone claimed they had a right to rule and that they were going to be the leader of the Empire they happened to put on a very specific colour.

I'm saying the thing you're claiming is "backing up" Red/Blue/Whatever isn't relevant. That is not the same thing.

You have conceded ..

I have said no such thing. How disingenuous.

that as a state colour, purple can't be found. It can be found as the personal pride colour of the Emperor, but nothing in regard to the state.

Yes, how silly of me not to realize that the Emperor and the Imperial court has nothing at all to do with the Empire. Only common soldiers have to do with the Imperial Government. Clearly.

Unfortunately, the Emperor doesn't seem to get colour codes, only the realm of Byzantium does in this case. So I guess, using your argument that purple as a Byzantine colour does not exist, purple would be a most inappropriate colour for Byzantium. Thank you for your assistance. I'm more convinced than I was before, that red is the best colour here.

So let me get this straight: You start off basing your whole justification purely on what Crest the Emperor some three hundred years into the game happens to think looks pretty, but the constant Imperial tradition dating back to the Roman Kings of identifying Purple as directly symbolizing Royal Authority means nothing because... because it just suddenly doesn't?

Also you should probably stop lying about what other forum members actually say. Especially when it's all a couple of posts above you.

 

[chatnoir17]

well did germany or the HRE ever have a grey flag or grey coa? No. But noone questions their colours..

Yes, I love the "modest" colour of the Reich toward the neighbouring countries.
And the red of the Byzantine Empire makes better contrast to the green colours of the Muslim kingdoms than the purple a la CK1.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

@Nuril: "Purpura" was the colour of Rome, not because of the standard or banners or the legions or something, but because of the branch on the toga of the senators, which they held until late antiquity. This "purpura" was a red tone; in Italy "porpora" is until today a red colour, in contrast to other countries, where purpure/purple is the tyrian purple. Purpura wasn't really defined, but if we follow the sources, it was nearer to the italian porpora. The change between the colours had something to do with the colours of the so called "purple snail", because all colours gained from this animal were called "purple"/pupura, but didn't mean a specific colour like read or purple. All colours gained were called "purpura", but, as said, the roman sources - and the fact, that until today in Italy purpura means red, which is also alive in the fashion of purpura-red-dressed cardinals, which are in some tradition related with the old senators of Rome - refer to a red colour. In Greece the more used purpura-colour was the "tyrian purple", which in fact is the base for our association of Byzantium with this colour.

So, the colour of Rome and Byzantium has the same name and the same source, but it is not the same colour. And at least: it has nothing to do with Hollywood, purpura-red was the colour of the nobility and later - and til today - the colour of roman church officials.

I like the map, i like the colours and I can live with a purpura Byzantium... whatever it will be.

 

[vwclaymore]

Does it really matter what color Byzantium is given? If you don't like the color then mod it - it's super easy - but stop the bickering. It's pointless and petty.

 

[Jia Xu]

Right, so you're just going to call me a doodoo-head and say you're right by default?

This never happened. A lot like the notion of purple as the state colour, it seems. Ohohoho.

I didn't say I was a "purist", not that that's a bad thing in a freaking history-game, I just asked why you thought it to be more historically founded when Purple is so clearly associated with the Empire in many different ways and all you keep bringing up is a military standard and ignoring why they displayed a host of different colours on them apart from the Imperial Purple itself. Then again I'm sure you think it was just some big coincidence that whenever someone claimed they had a right to rule and that they were going to be the leader of the Empire they happened to put a very specific colour. I'm saying the thing you're claiming is "backing up" Red/Blue/Whatever isn't relevant. That is not the same thing.

It's more historically founded based on all of this evidence which you have failed to produce no matter how many times I ask you nicely for it? Oh, alright then. You should perhaps be less sure of what I think then, and perhaps pay more attention to what I actually say, instead of spending so much effort re-writing my posts for me. I said that purple was the personal pride colour of the Emperor. It's not the colour of the state though and every time I challenge you to provide evidence for your claims, you ignore me. What's the problem? You seem to end this paragraph by claiming that all of the evidence that exists is irrelevant and not worth mentioning compared to your phantom evidence which no one seems to be able to find.

I have said no such thing. How disingenuous.

You didn't need to say it right out. It's in your arguments.

Yes, how silly of me not to realize that the Emperor and the Imperial court has nothing at all to do with the Empire. Only common soldiers have to do with the Imperial Government. Clearly.

This is another strawman argument from you. The Emperor's personal colour is not the state colour. If it was, you'd be able to find state flags with purple in it for me.

So let me get this straight: You start off basing your whole justification purely on what Crest the Emperor some three hundred years into the game happens to think looks pretty, but the constant Imperial tradition dating back to the Roman Kings of identifying Purple as directly symbolizing Royal Authority means nothing because... because it just suddenly doesn't?

Despite your best efforts at the beginning of this paragraph, you seem to have failed to get it straight. As I said before, this is a video game and not a historical simulator. If you look at the screenshots you can see Byzantium's very red flag. The state has a grand history of red in flags, but you can't show me one with purple. Not one. All you can do is fish for excuses for why you don't need any evidence.

Also you should probably stop lying about what other forum members actually say. Especially when it's all a couple of posts above you.

You should probably stop making baseless claims you can't back up. This is a figment of your imagination, like state purple for Byzantium. In the future, please resist the urge to make any more posts where you attempt to make a victim out of yourself in order to ignore (yet again) the fact you can't back up anything you say with evidence.

 

[htilden42]

Byzantium needs to be purple for the same reason France needs to be blue, England red, and Germany grey.

 

[unmerged(179107)]

According to Jia Xu's way of reasoning the HRE should have the color yellow.

Byzantium needs to be purple for the same reason France needs to be blue, England red, and Germany grey.

Exactly.

We probably went a little bit off-topic.

 

[RhoDaZZ]

I don't think you understand that the word "standard" in this context refers to a type of flag. And considering your argument rests solely on being some kind of historical purist, then why not argue against the notion of Byzantium having a flag at all, hmm? Because perhaps such a suggestion would make your argument seem quite silly, similar to the argument you're making now for some kind of purist attachment to purple which you haven't been able to back up by your own admission.

You have conceded that as a state colour, purple can't be found. It can be found as the personal pride colour of the Emperor, but nothing in regard to the state. Unfortunately, the Emperor doesn't seem to get colour codes, only the realm of Byzantium does in this case. So I guess, using your argument that purple as a Byzantine colour does not exist, purple would be a most inappropriate colour for Byzantium. Thank you for your assistance. I'm more convinced than I was before, that red is the best colour here.




How is that a bias? If you look at all of the flags I posted, there's clearly more red than blue throughout Byzantine history. This argument is based on the always wrong notion that these games are historical simulators and not video games, yes? Look at the screenshots. What flag did the developers give to the Byzantines?

You just contradicted yourself. You say that on the one hand as a "purist" you can not really implant a standardized flags system in this era, because it's not historical. On the other hand you say that you should implant the red coloured flags/state colours because they are the most historical in regards to the flags which you just said were not historically standardized (as I understand it).

My argument in this case would be, if flags are not the primary source to look for here, what would be the next best thing? I would say the Emperor.

But really, there is no absolute answer. The colour purple may have embodied the Emperor but elsewhere other colours such as blue and red would have been frequently used, of course. All colours could probably have some legitimacy to them in a a time without standardized flags and emblems and I for one simply think that (dark) purple looks nice and the Emperor is a symbol of the "state" as a bonus.

Also, paintings which may show a tyrian "purple" (which is really red) does so because the purple from murex brandaris decays (in this case, into red) more easily over time than other colours. Originally some of these would have been intended as being purple and painted as such. This article shows a similar (non-intended) misunderstanding in polychromy - antiquity did use a variety of colourings.

 

[Nuril]

Right, I'm done with your disingenuous ass, Jia Xu. You've openly ignored everything I've said both as comments on your points and my own statements and you just keep blathering on about how something that couldn't even be hypothetically argued to exist until the late-game period is a prominent and obvious fact that should just be accepted on your say-so even when directly contradicting the actual existence of so-called "flags". Then when you're actually pressed on something you just cop out and go "It's not supposed to be historical, it's just a video game!".

I'm not even someone who freakin' feels strongly about the colour of Byzantium, it's a personal preference for me that just happens to be the Imperial default. And you're still ignoring the important fact that red is ridiculously over-used in the east, despite how much you go on about it being a "game".

You also don't know what a "Strawman argument" is. It's when you build a useless copy of your opponents real argument and then go on to ignore what your opponent is saying and just argue with the "Strawman" instead of the real person. It isn't making fun of your self-contradictory statement while maintaining what my position actually is despite your attempts of perverting it into something I actually did not argue. ...Hey, would you look at that. Not to mention that you even go so far as claim to be able to read my mind about how daft I am since I apparently don't even have to write down things that you intuitively just "know".

Also, paintings which may show a tyrian "purple" (which is really red) does so because the purple from murex brandaris decays (in this case, into red) more easily over time than other colours. Originally some of these would have been intended as being purple and painted as such. This article shows a similar (non-intended) misunderstanding in polychromy - antiquity did use a variety of colourings.

And yeah, in response to Marco Dandolo's point about Italian this is pretty much a point I was going to raise.

 

[unmerged(319241)]

Byzantium needs to be purple for the same reason France needs to be blue, England red, and Germany grey.

[sarcasm on]
Yes. Because most countries had 1000 years of history, but everyone knows that germany during this timeframe had only 12 years. From 1933 to 1945. There was really nothing before it.
[/sarcasm off]

 

[Bballman23]

Was that sarcasm, dartvader? Hard to tell, XD, but I think the grey looks fine.

Can we move on? All the chosen colors have basis of some kind or another, even if you think it's weaker than the option you prefer, and I think the map looks very nice (especially with the texture update, the point of this thread...). If you disagree, change it yourself! Don't get all worked up/waste time arguing about it, and please don't waste the devs' time -- let them worry about things that actually matter.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

OK, people enough about Byzantium and the colour it should have. There obviously won't be an agreement on this, so discussing it further is useless and might just result in people insulting each other.

 

[Captain Gars]

Yes, listen to Veldmaarschlk and get this thread back on topic again. And for the record, the project lead on CKII, Doomdark, prefers the red color and that's that - it won't change.

 

[Kluska]

Not to mention it will most likely be trivial to mod...

 

[Jia Xu]

The map looks really pretty. I just hope those big shields won't be an inconvenience when trying to get at smaller provinces, perhaps. I know in EU3 and CK1, it's a huge annoyance when something is obstructing provinces and making them harder to access. Of course in those games, the main culprit is troops. I certainly hope map shields don't make the issue more annoying, hah.

 

[Nuril]

Not to mention it will most likely be trivial to mod...

That is such an exceptionally useless point that never needs to be stated about anything, yet it gets repeated multiple times. The easier something is to mod the easier it is for them to get right in the first place. Putting Kent in the Kingdom of France may very well be "trivial to mod" in a single line once you open the provincial files, but that doesn't mean it should be in vanilla nor that they should leave it to private persons to change it. I will never understand the compulsive need to try to silence objections to minor issues.

Besides, modding isn't some trivial thing in it's own right. Some very minor changes might very well mess up the checksum and disable Online play and Achievements (although I hope it's built to recognize when it offers no gameplay advantage and ignore such changes).

I know in EU3 and CK1, it's a huge annoyance when something is obstructing provinces and making them harder to access.

On this note: I hope tiny counties like Corfu or the like (presuming they're in the game?) don't have such issues?

 

[Jaol]

I notice quite a bit of variety in graphics for the cities in the close-up map. Are those just different city-sizes or do some of those buildings represent holdings/buildings?

 

[Sotof]

Lübeck needs to be more grey. Clearly.

 

[Captain Gars]

When a moderator tells you to stop something, you either do so or you are breaking the rules. Infractions handed out. Now, back on topic please.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Concerning posted screenshots - may I suggest some more consistency when it comes to names of Pagan tribes? We have Pruthenians, Yatviags, Curonians, Zemigalians, etc - perhaps it would be better to use same form for Lithuania, Galindia and Pommerania? Oh, and 'Tribe of Mecklenburg' from CK1 sounds just awful - could you rename it to 'Obotrites' please?