Why should I (or AI) specialise vassals?

[Anemetius]

Bonuses for Overlord are pathetic. Spending a large percentage of my income to maintain Bulwark vassal gives me this:

Starbase upgrade cost: −20%
Starbase upgrade speed: +20%
Crime from Relay Network: −10%
Stability from Relay Network: +5

Nothing. Literally nothing. Pathetic percentage sums that affect nothing worth the cost. The only bonus that is worthwhile is the one we get from Scholarium. Given how stupid AI is and willing to create specialised vassals, AI is only shooting itself in the foot by creating Bulwarks. Zero real bonuses. And AI is spamming Bulwarks like crazy, so give Overlord +10% to navy at least.

 

[Rooker75]

Bulwark is great if *you're* the bulwark, but I don't know why you'd ever want to make one as the overlord. I did it once and really regretted it.

 

[HFY]

I did it once and really regretted it.

Same. Always avoid having a Bulwark going forward. Bad mechanic unless I am the Bulwark.

Other vassal types can be worthwhile.

 

[Gui10]

Bonuses for Overlord are pathetic. Spending a large percentage of my income to maintain Bulwark vassal gives me this:

Starbase upgrade cost: −20%
Starbase upgrade speed: +20%
Crime from Relay Network: −10%
Stability from Relay Network: +5

Nothing. Literally nothing. Pathetic percentage sums that affect nothing worth the cost. The only bonus that is worthwhile is the one we get from Scholarium. Given how stupid AI is and willing to create specialised vassals, AI is only shooting itself in the foot by creating Bulwarks. Zero real bonuses. And AI is spamming Bulwarks like crazy, so give Overlord +10% to navy at least.

Turn a one planet vassal into a bulwark and it is worth it

 

[Methone]

Bulwark sucks.

Scholarium good.

 

[fusei]

Spending a large percentage of my income to maintain Bulwark vassal

Not of your income, the base is their income which might be negligible in comparison to yours.

 

[Methone]

Not of your income, the base is their income which might be negligible in comparison to yours.

might

 

[DeanTheDull]

Bonuses for Overlord are pathetic. Spending a large percentage of my income to maintain Bulwark vassal gives me this:

Starbase upgrade cost: −20%
Starbase upgrade speed: +20%
Crime from Relay Network: −10%
Stability from Relay Network: +5

Nothing. Literally nothing. Pathetic percentage sums that affect nothing worth the cost.

You're tracking that starbase upgrade cost also applies to planetary rings, correct?

Planetary Rings count as starbases for upgrade and cost reduction buffs. I don't remember if it applies to the first stage, but the cost savings for the next two stages with the -20% is saving 50 influence and 700 alloys per planet. Scale by your empire's numbers of planets, and that's non-trivial amounts of both influence and alloys, easily well beyond the value of a one-planet.

Releasing a planet to be a bullwark is worth the cost, especially if you expect to leverage the Bulwark admiral traits for your defense fleets later on.

Making a large vassal a bullwark is the bad move, but a large vassal would be better as a Prospectorium anyway.

The only bonus that is worthwhile is the one we get from Scholarium. Given how stupid AI is and willing to create specialised vassals, AI is only shooting itself in the foot by creating Bulwarks. Zero real bonuses. And AI is spamming Bulwarks like crazy, so give Overlord +10% to navy at least.

The only vassal bonus worth spamming for the relay bonus is the Scholarium bonus, but that's because the bonus to researchers stacks regardless of the size. What the AI should be doing is spamming prospectorium contracts, because the sprawl efficiencies and ability to just directly employ more pops as scientists/pops is worth more than a scholarium even after you factor the rebate.

 

[A2ch0n]

I prefer the Prospectorium vassal the most. It allow you to keep free planet space that you would normally use for minerals/food/energy. The scholarium is close second. And yes, the bulwark is something i only use if it's the only option to convince an ampire to become my subject. But that's mainly because of it's war focus and i don't need that very often.

It becomes interesting if you use the first two mentioned types. Originally i think it's build around all three. You pay the Prospectorium with the income from the Scholarium, Protect the scholarium with fleets from the Bulwark and pay the Bulwark with the resources of the Prospectorium. And in any case you make a good share, even if you only take 30% tax (whats most of the time more than enough). It's even better if you skip the Bulwark.

What i would like is a unity/influence generating vassal instead (optimally additional to) the bulwark. Thats something i would happily pay a similar upkeep to the Bulwark.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I prefer the Prospectorium vassal the most. It allow you to keep free planet space that you would normally use for minerals/food/energy. The scholarium is close second. And yes, the bulwark is something i only use if it's the only option to convince an ampire to become my subject. But that's mainly because of it's war focus and i don't need that very often.

It becomes interesting if you use the first two mentioned types. Originally i think it's build around all three. You pay the Prospectorium with the income from the Scholarium, Protect the scholarium with fleets from the Bulwark and pay the Bulwark with the resources of the Prospectorium. And in any case you make a good share, even if you only take 30% tax (whats most of the time more than enough). It's even better if you skip the Bulwark.

Optimal setup is tax the prospectorium to subsidize the scholarium's ability to employ more scientists, the tax of which covers the prospetorium rebate.

Due to the AI planning model, the AI focuses on getting sufficient surpluses of basic resources and then industrial resources before it invests in scientists, so taxing the Prospectoriums- who get auto-taxed on both the basic and industrial resources- is a great way to subsidize your science producers to employ pops as taxed-scientists rather than untaxed basic resources.

Best prospectoriums by far are the megacorps for this reason, as their huge energy potential directly feeds Machine Scholarium, but the industrial tax can also reap the trade build TV-CG as well to subsidize others.

What i would like is a unity/influence generating vassal instead (optimally additional to) the bulwark. Thats something i would happily pay a similar upkeep to the Bulwark.

Hmm. I think they kept unity out of the tributary cycle to push the players to set atop the general resource hierarchy, where all inputs can free up your pops to focus on 100% unity. That platonic ideal state- which imposes vulnerabilities to vassal instability- would be mooted if you could tax for unity.

As for influence, vassals can break the influence economy already due to the Ministry of Truth. That's just opportunity cost from the holding slots, but it's hard to beat.

 

[A2ch0n]

due to the Ministry of Truth

And thats why the MoT is the best building in the whole game imo. Everything i like todo need a lot of influence.

 

[Verx90]

the idea of bulkwark is that they " protect that side" . AI empire love to become bulkwark when there is an aggressive empire they can't defeat and you are strong.

bulkwark are the guarddog of vassals , they are supposed to have the military strenght to be relevant .
malus points for the fact the AI doesn't build bastions , pick rarely bastion traditions and AP .


it is not mean to have particolar economic benefits .

 

[lilsaihah]

Prospectorium vassals are great - they provide more money than regular vassals.
Scholarium vassals are great - the bonus Science Speed is great.
Bulwark vassals really shouldn't be allowed to go over 6 systems. Use them to control a chokepoint. Keep in mind the primary resources they get are based on their production, so if they're small they won't draw that much.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

I'm not sure if it's been fixed, but if hyperrelay network bonuses still stack, making 6 or so single system Bulwarks in habitats is easily the best thing you can do as large empire. -100% crime and +40 stability lets you just stop having amenities, or at least neglect them.

Non-gestalts only need 6 (with a penal colony), and for gestalts, amenities are so painful that freeing your economy from them is a huge boost easily worth the effort. Plus, you don't actually have to go all the way to -100% deviancy. At -85%, you need 210+ pops on the planet before you hit the 30 deviancy limit.

Otherwise, yeah, Bulwarks are terrible. Just by the nature of the game, their tech level (and hence ships) will be inferior to yours, so you have to borrow their fleets, upgrade them, and either use them yourself (with repeatables) or give them back and hope the AI will follow you around well enough to be useful.

 

[stargazersatnight]

Bonuses for Overlord are pathetic. Spending a large percentage of my income to maintain Bulwark vassal gives me this:

Starbase upgrade cost: −20%
Starbase upgrade speed: +20%
Crime from Relay Network: −10%
Stability from Relay Network: +5

Nothing. Literally nothing. Pathetic percentage sums that affect nothing worth the cost. The only bonus that is worthwhile is the one we get from Scholarium. Given how stupid AI is and willing to create specialised vassals, AI is only shooting itself in the foot by creating Bulwarks. Zero real bonuses. And AI is spamming Bulwarks like crazy, so give Overlord +10% to navy at least.

This is not true, what you pay is based on their income...
A bulwark with one planet produces basically nothing. The 5 stability alone would make the arrangement profitable not to mention the combat benefits of having a bulwark.